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Strange Bedfellows

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Vance

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Since someone just raised this same issue in another thread, I thought I would restate my thoughts on this phenomenon"

There are two distinct minority groups which most violently oppose the idea that evolution and Scripture can be entirely compatible:

Militant atheists and YEC’s.

I am not sure which first concluded that their mutual position was correct, but they have developed a symbiotic relationship, feeding off each other, quoting each other, believing each other’s statements since it is what they want to hear.

It is true that when the atheists first heard of evolution, it seemed to give them an "out", a method of explaining origins without God. Because you CAN describe evolution without God, there is no doubt about it. Sure, there are still first cause arguments, intelligent design issues, etc, but evolution itself CAN happen without God. Just as importantly, it was contrary to the traditional reading of Genesis. Atheists combined these two and leapt for joy: they had a platform to stand on.

They were wrong, of course. While evolution CAN happen without God being involved, this is not proof whatsoever that it DID happen without God, much less that God does not exist. No more than photosynthesis happening without God could prove that God does not exist. Nevertheless, atheists took full advantage of the new foothold they seemed to have gained and began presenting evolution as a blow against Christian teaching, proving the Creation stories false. If that is false, they argued, everything else may be false as well!

Many Christians bought right into this hook, line and sinker. Rather than learn the lesson of geocentrism and simply recognize that their traditional reading of Genesis and their concepts of origins and the age of the earth may be incorrect, they dug in, giving the atheists more and more ammunition. They began making their OWN statements agreeing with the atheists that evolution and Scripture were entirely incompatible, thus playing right into their hands. From then on, the more that science established evolutionary concepts, the shakier Christianity would become. And, I am sure this worked to a great extent. It is dismaying to think of all those souls lost to the Kingdom due to the combined teaching of these atheists and Creationists (as they were soon being called). These strange bedfellows created "all or nothing" propositions that left people with no choice but to accept *either* Christianity or the persuasive new evidence of science. Who knows how many abandoned Christianity as a result. However many there were, the blame lies equally on both of those groups teaching the same "incompatibility" dogma.

What would have happened if the Christian community as a whole immediately stated that evolution could, indeed, be compatible with Scripture, we just had to adjust our traditional reading as we did with geocentrism? How many of these lost souls would still be in the Kingdom?

Over the years, the Christian community in general HAS come to apply the lesson of geocentrism and simply re-examine their traditional readings of Scripture. After all, just as with geocentrism, Man is able to err when reading God’s Word, and sometimes they can err BIG. This has taken a lot of the wind out of the atheistic sails and, I am convinced, has prevented the loss of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of souls.

But in the last few decades, we have had a resurgence of the debate, with Young Earth Creationists once again spouting the atheistic line that evolution and the Scripture are incompatible and that if evolution is correct, Scripture is false. While still primarily a movement in the U.S., it is spreading to the UK and Australia as well. They have ministries which spread these teachings and, once again, are presenting it as a choice: you can either accept the Scripture or the evidence supporting an old earth and evolution. The atheists are there in the background urging them on.


All very, very sad
 

Remus

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How many of these lost souls would still be in the Kingdom?
Without trying to justify anyone, although I feel a little beaten up here, I would like to point out that God would not put someone in a position where they were solely responsible for another person's salvation or the lack thereof. God will make a way for everyone to find Him regardless of the actions of other people.
 
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Vance

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Remus said:
Without trying to justify anyone, although I feel a little beaten up here, I would like to point out that God would not put someone in a position where they were solely responsible for another person's salvation or the lack thereof. God will make a way for everyone to find Him regardless of the actions of other people.
The only problem with this is that for many people, the only way for them to receive the Gospel is from other people. God's Spirit can work within someone once the seed has been planted, but that seed has to be planted. Maybe it is a Gideon's Bible, maybe it is another person talking to them about the Lord. Maybe it is the example of their neighbor that causes them to look into things.

Just as people can be the positive spark which plants the seed. I also think people can be a negative force in this process, effectively poisoning the seed. I don't think any one person can do this, but a collective negative pressure from experiences can so damage the message that it becomes much more difficult.

I think this is why God told us to make sure we are not a stumbling block to others.
 
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Beowulf

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There's a lot of unbelievers out there using evolution to prove there is no God in the first place, bible or no. Evolution isn't a stumbling block to the vast majority, it's an excuse to side-step God. Take it away through christian acceptance and they'll just find another excuse. There are exceptions I'll grant you but those are rare to say the least and are not the norm.

I have a hard time with embracing an idea that so many others (unbelievers) use to show that God doesn't exist. It's a tool used against God by the unbeliever. Without evolution the alternative is not attractive. The unbeliever must prove evolution correct or accept that God exists. There would be no other choice.
Eliminate evolution and eliminate the stumbling block for ALL because there will be no other explaination for our existance but to accept the fact that "In the beginning God created...".

Nor do I feel comfortable accepting every other excuse just to eliminate that particular stumbling block. I'll not sugar-coat the gospel or compromise it to make it look more attractive. It's atrractive enough already if people would accept the fact that they are sinners on death row. But egos are egos, I had one too until I surrendered to Christ. Not many like the word "surrender" and that's what it all boils down to.
 
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Gold Dragon

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Beowulf said:
Nor do I feel comfortable accepting every other excuse just to eliminate that particular stumbling block. I'll not sugar-coat the gospel or compromise it to make it look more attractive.
To remove the stumbling block, you don't need to accept TE. Simply present TE as an alternative view that some Christians hold and you disagree with. 100% truth.
 
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Vance

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Beowulf said:
There's a lot of unbelievers out there using evolution to prove there is no God in the first place, bible or no. Evolution isn't a stumbling block to the vast majority, it's an excuse to side-step God. Take it away through christian acceptance and they'll just find another excuse. There are exceptions I'll grant you but those are rare to say the least and are not the norm.
You are just accepting my statement that atheists do, indeed, use evolution against Christianity.

Beowulf said:
I have a hard time with embracing an idea that so many others (unbelievers) use to show that God doesn't exist. It's a tool used against God by the unbeliever. Without evolution the alternative is not attractive. The unbeliever must prove evolution correct or accept that God exists. There would be no other choice.
Again, you are just agreeing with my post in saying that atheists use evolution as a tool against God. My point is that YEC's AID THEM in this endeavor by agreeing that evolution is inconsistent with Christianity.

Beowulf said:
Eliminate evolution and eliminate the stumbling block for ALL because there will be no other explaination for our existance but to accept the fact that "In the beginning God created...".
But, that is just it, we are not going to eliminate evolution if it happens to be true. And Creationists have not been able to offer another model that fits the evidence. So, people will go right along believing evolution. The only question is whether some Christians will go right along telling them that their belief is inconsistent with the Bible, thus inoculating them from ever accepting the Bible?

Beowulf said:
Nor do I feel comfortable accepting every other excuse just to eliminate that particular stumbling block. I'll not sugar-coat the gospel or compromise it to make it look more attractive. It's atrractive enough already if people would accept the fact that they are sinners on death row. But egos are egos, I had one too until I surrendered to Christ. Not many like the word "surrender" and that's what it all boils down to.
This is a cop-out to assign an acceptance of a well-founded scientific theory supported by tons of evidence to mere ego.

I am not talking about sugar-coating the Gospel or compromising. Again, these are just cop-outs for dealing with the reality of the situation. The fact is that the Bible can, indeed, be read in a way that is entirely consistent with evolution. This is not a sugar coated version, but the real thing, God's Holy Word.

Are we sugar-coating the Bible by telling the non-Christian that the Bible is consistent with heliocentrism, not geoecentrism, as Christians believed earlier based on a literal reading of Scripture. You realize that the geocentrists alive today believe you YEC's are, indeed, sugar coating Scripture to conform to this scientific principal that the earth revolves around the sun rather than just accepting the plain, literal truth of the Bible.

It is the same thing.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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The unbeliever must prove evolution correct or accept that God exists. There would be no other choice.
Eliminate evolution and eliminate the stumbling block for ALL because there will be no other explaination for our existance but to accept the fact that "In the beginning God created...".

again with the either-or radical polarization thinking.

eternality of the material world-Greek
eternality of cyclic worlds-hindu
unknowability of early origins-many gnostic, some sects in Islam
irrelevance of origins-it doesn't matter, most deism
god and universe evolving together--process theology

just off the top of my head, 5 major ways to explain origins that are not Christian and not evolutionary, but both historical and common answers today.

historically the major questions about the beginnings of the universe have been:

universe-with a beginning or eternal.
universe-contingent or necessary.
universe-relationship to deity: transcendent, immanent, process, deistic, pantheistic panetheistic
universe-knowable or unknowable


etc etc.

certainly not the black-white either-or that seems to underlie so much YEC defense.
 
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Vance

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Beowulf said:
Heliocentrism and geoecentrism appealed to the pride of man's heart.. "Hey! I'm the center of the universe!". It was humbling to find out it wasn't so.
No,that would be just geocentrism, not heliocentrism. Remember, geocentrism says the sun and stars revolve around the earth. This is what the Church believed, as did most of the world. But when Galileo began to show that this was wrong and provided scientific evidence that the earth revolved around the sun (heliocentrism), the Church saw this new science as an attack on Christian beliefs. Was it also based on pride?

Maybe so, but that is not the basis upon which the Church condemned heliocentrism. They did so based on strict literalism and theological "conflicts". Exactly as YEC's do today regarding an old earth and evolution.

But maybe the parallel is even closer than you think. Do you not consider that possibly, in addition to the strict literalism and theological conflicts raised by YEC's, they may just be prideful enough to say "Hey! I am not descended from an ape!" ?
 
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Vance

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Right, exactly! That is exactly how they would say it if they were basing their position on "the pride of man's heart" as the earlier geocentrists did. Well done.

But you might want to put that in quotes if you are providing an example of a prideful statement, otherwise people may assume you are saying this yourself!
 
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GodSaves

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Personal Opinion, take it or leave it.

I have seen most theistic evolutionists state that their view on evolution has nothing to do with their salvation, directly. I would be inclined to agree. So, why the big fuss being made by theistic evolutionists about evolution and salvation? Many theistic evolutionists say the belief in evolution does not affect my salvation, but at the same time say the belief in evolution affects others salvation. Interesting, isn't it.

The real problem is that so many people are trying to complicate the whole issue of salvation. I have tried to make the point of the crook on the cross and how he was saved by Jesus on the fateful friday. All the crook did was believe in Jesus as the Son of God. The crook made no statement of his origins. The crook did no good works after being saved. The crook gave no money to a church after being saved. He simply believed.

I believe that you all understand that salvation comes solely through the belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Jesus said it Himself:
John 6
"46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. "

This is what I have seen over the months of this debate. Both sides worried about the other's thinking and whether or not they are correct or wrong. Alot of judgment has been passed from both sides. We know what it says about judging another. Beware you will be judged in the same manner in that which you judge another. That is between you and God. This whole debate seems more about proving one is right and the other is wrong.
Matthew 7
2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

Sometimes you have to wonder how much good work is being done when you argue the same people over and over on the same topic. But sometimes being right is worth that much, huh.

God Bless
 
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seebs

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The concern, GodSaves, is that many people preach that belief in evolution damns, and thus, a defense must be made, to protect the faith of people who are wrestling with this question. The concern is not with how old they think the world is, but with whether they are convinced that, should they accept the mainstream scientific view, they are no longer Christians.
 
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GodSaves

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So take the time to correct this with the non-believer, instead of taking the time to argue another believer into your belief or opinion. Perfect example, the crook on the cross. The concern from YEC, I believe, is that one needs to be careful how much trust is put into the world and its teachings. Believe it or not, it is the world that is apart from God that believes evolution and the big bang theory. It is the Christians who are divided on the issue, not the non-believers.

Jesus Christ said don't put your faith in this world. Paul speaks of people in the world turning to myths instead of God's truth. One really needs to be careful not to trust this world too much, and Satan is very crafty. There are things that will seem very logical that will lead a person away from God. And when we have too much pride thinking nothing can lead us astray, so we don't keep ourselves in God's Word daily, we leave ourselves vulnerable. Maybe you have read or heard about the Sunday only Christian.

Let me ask everyone who read this, in everything you do, are you thinking is this what Jesus would do? If you aren't then you must keep in God's Word daily. Since I believe no one can answer yes to my question, then we each need to be immersed in His Word and trying to practice humility, mercy, love and forgiving daily. Instead of trying to show everyone we are right.

God Bless
 
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GodSaves

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What is the point in being right when someone might be cast into the lake of fire on judgement day. I know I will be happy to be with Christ that day, but I think I am also going to be sad to see people I know who didn't choose to believe in Jesus be cast into the lake of fire. By making it about 'me' being right in my understanding, I never relied on the LORD to harvest, but rather on myself.

What did Paul spend his time preaching on in his life? The life and teachings of Jesus Christ, right? So, should we not do the same???

It is never about "us" being "right." It is about preaching the Word of God. Deny yourself and follow Christ. Lean not on your own understanding, but the LORD's. These weren't said just for the sake of being said. They mean something.

Max Lucado wrote a book called "It's not about me." Everyone should check it out, and his other books for that matter. Excellent writer. One of his quotes that constantly sticks out in my mind is:

"If it is all about me, then it is all up to me."
 
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GodSaves

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2 Timothy 2
24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Romans 16

17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.

2 Corinthians 4
4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

--> You know what the image of God is now.
 
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Vance

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But, Godsaves, you are missing the point entirely:

I not posting here to be right. I am posting here to do exactly what you are saying: trying to avoid souls being lost, and cast into the lake of fire. I know you have read my thread on "Why I Post", so you know it has nothing at all to do with being "right", but an earnest attempt to prevent the stumbling block that YEC's absolutist teaching brings with it.

And this stumbling block is REAL and it is dangerous. Souls ARE being lost. Not only do we have Glen Morton's dramatic story, discussing his crisis of faith and those of others he knows, here is a response to my identical post over in the Creation and Science forum. This is serious stuff:

"I'll defend some of vances claims because He knows exactly what he is talking about.

I was brought up being taught YECism and that Christianity is incompatible with evolution. When I grew up and started learning more, I learned more about evolution, about how it ACTUALLY worked, about the mountains of supporting evidence, learned that creationists had been lying about all this and had been misleading people, etc. Being an honest seeker of truth, I had no choice but to accept evolution as truth. It was one of the catalysts for me eventuallly deconverting. I grew up in a mostly fundamentalist part of the USA and so it was years after my deconversion that I first started to encounter people that were both Christian and accepted evolution. It even took some time for me to get used to the idea. By this point, there was no turning back. I had long since accepted my atheism. Had I not been brought up with YECism, chances are that I would most likely still be a Christian.

On the flipside, a number of my friends are atheists. As, like I mention before, this part of the country is so full of fundies and YECers, they all, by this point, equate YECism with Christianity. Not a single one of them would ever seriously consider rejecting evolution (one guy even has a masters in evolutionary biology). I even once had a friend tell me that if it wasn't for YECism, he'd probably be a Christian.

Going by both personal experience and from what I have read, YECism is a much greater threat to Christianity than evolution has ever been."


Now, I have to do my best to undo the damage that YEC teaching has wrought in this case, but it is doubtful that I will be able to reach him. All I can do is try. I have bolded the important parts in the quote above. Now, some may say that this is not truthful, but if it is not, then a LOT of people are not truthful about this, because I have heard this so often, it makes me very, very sad.

And I have gotten other, similar, messages in response to my posts, sharing a similar crisis of faith. The bottom line is that none of these crises would exist if these people had heard and believed that there was another option: that they COULD be a Christian even if they accept evolution and an old earth.

So, yes, YEC's have made it a salvation issue in a backward fashion by causing people to doubt.
 
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artybloke

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I think there's a paralell here with the Judaisers that Paul in his letters argued so vociferously about, who were defeated at the First Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15.) There, the issue was circumscision and keeping the ritual law: Paul argued, rightly, that Christians were not required this. No doubt, one of the arguments of the judaisers was that it "compromised the faith" to not keep the Levitical law: but Paul argued that it was counter to the freedom of the Gospel. Creationism is not a requirement for salvation (and thank God, as it contradicts God's witness in the universe) because it would cause the same kind of stumbling-block as circumscision and the keeping of the ritual law: it's a legalistic interpretation of scripture (the letter kills, but the spirit gives life) and I for one think that St Paul would sniff it out for the same fault as the Judaisers of the 1st Century.
 
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Vance

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Yes, very good point.

Another parallel is one actually brought up by Beowulf and further proven by him. In the geocentism controversy, he suggested that there was a degree of human pride believing that Man is at the center of the universe and all the heavenly bodies revolve around us (in addition to all the Scripture and theological arguments that supported this position). I wonder if there is not a certain amount of human pride in the rejection of the idea that God used the process of evolution to create humans.

Every time I read, as above, "hey, I did not come from an ape!" it reminds me of "hey, the earth upon which I live is not just another planet circling the sun!"
 
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