Post Christian era

[stevevw]

History is marked by eras. These are usually based on literature as this lays down our knowledge. It begins with prehistoric moves through the ancient, middle age and Medievil era's. Then comes the Renaissance and age of exploration. Then begins the Modern era around 1620 which brought Enlightenment, the industrial revolution, the Romantic era and into the High Modern era. Then came the Postmodernism era and everything that comes with it such as the cultural revolutions, critical theories, subjective morality and relativism as the new reality.

My question is are we still in the Postmodern era or are we moving into a new era. The reason being is that we have had Postmodernism for some time. It seems to me we have moved beyond Postmodern relativism. Postmodernism though relative and self referential initially was the idea that there were many truths and not objective truths.

I remember 20 or 30 years ago it was all about multiculturalism. The west had to be more multicultural. The basic idea was allowing for diverse beliefs and ideas but the west was still a unique culture based on their history of Christianity and widely supported. Both Christianity and other cultures could exist altogether as one big happy melting pot of society. That was the true essence of Postmodernism relativism that all truths could live together and none were dominate and more true than the other.

Then things changed. Almost a sudden shift post 2000 into PC, CC and identity politics. Of course we know that this was no accident. That the groundwork for this was laid through academia Postmodernist Critical theories and into the institutions.

But it is this period where I think we have shifted into the beginning of a Post Christian era. Because as mentioned God and Christianity was being critiqued, then questioned, then rejected and then replaced with the Postmodern ideas of the late 20th and early 21st centuries which has established itself as a post Christian secular society. Such as with progressive and humanistic ideology.

Its the beginning of an era where Christianity is no longer being tolerated in the market place whereas before it was tolerated as one of the many alternative truths. So a line has been crossed where predominatly the scales have tipped from a Christian norm, to a relative norm thats accepted Christianity and now to post Christian norms reject Christianity out of the public square.

Hense I think we are beginning the Post Christian era. Its been around long enough to have become the norm. Like other eras which overlap there will still be varying degrees of intolerance for Christianity and God at first.

But as the Post Christian era becomes more established I think Christianity will not only be not allowed but not tolerated. If the same trajectory that is occuring now where secular ideology and Christianity are clashing in a growing number of issues with Christianity coming off second best then we should expect a more complete rejection and intolerance as the era becomes more established.

PS: I think the evolution from the Postmodern era into a Post Christian one may also be seen as representative of a larger change in worldview from the Christian worldview that has lasted in varying degrees throughout western history up until maybe around the 80s or 90's. But definitely post 2000. As opposed to the PostChristian era where the worldview is secular, materialistic and antiChristian.

In other world fundementally this is a battle of worldviews where Christianity has been the worldview up until recently and now a secular worldview without God and Christianity has taken over for the first time in western history. We as western societies are now moving into a world atheists claimed would be better. A world without God. They are finally achieving their Godless utopia.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It would be good to note what this Godless utopia has and is achieving. The breakdown of communities and increased atomization of individuals, as individual rights take precedence over group rights. A declining birthrate (literally a dying society/civilization). Increased depression and mental illness. Hedonism to excess, all of which is justified on the pretense of individual choice. A wasteful and neglectful governing apparatus which spends more than it takes it and leaves future generations in even more debt to pay for the here and now. An apathetic nihilism which inspires no one.

More could be said about the world we are entering, especially how most Christians support the structures of this world. But it's kind of depressing.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Metamodernism is the term for the cultural and philosophical movement that came after postmodernism. It's characterized by a synthesis of modernism and postmodernism, and a response to the cynicism and irony of postmodernism.

Metamodernism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You might like On Naming the Present.

On Naming the Present

Arguably the most respected Catholic systematic theologian in the English-speaking world, David Tracy’s growing influence internationally and on persons of other Christian traditions and his ability to communicate with representatives of the secular academy stem from the unique quality of his...

orbisbooks.com

I reviewed the book:

I find that with books by David Tracy one should not be in a hurry. Rather than finishing one ought to just let the book do its formation in the soul. It takes concentration to read David Tracy, but in the process there is a deepening that can be experienced.

I wont try to summarize this book. But I will say that it takes us through the theological impact of living in a "polycentric" world that must account for "global suffering". With only 139 pages I think it makes a great book for personal reflection, challenging and stretching for those who find their own personal theology in need of new avenues.

I am not a professional theologian, so it was not an easy read. But well worth the work.

"The God of history, thanks to the remarkable achievements of the political, liberation, and feminist theologians, can now be viewed as the God revealed in the history of Jesus, i.e., the history of the God revealed in the hiddenness of suffering, negativity, cross. By empowering human beings to become agents of history rather than either passive participant of whatever happens or modern compulsive egos, the new vision of God also frees the "mystical" part of the mystical-political option to its own new understanding of God as love - a love so excessive it is ultimately incomprehensible."

 

[Stephen3141]

History is marked by eras. These are usually based on literature as this lays down our knowledge. It begins with prehistoric moves through the ancient, middle age and Medievil era's. Then comes the Renaissance and age of exploration. Then begins the Modern era around 1620 which brought Enlightenment, the industrial revolution, the Romantic era and into the High Modern era. Then came the Postmodernism era and everything that comes with it such as the cultural revolutions, critical theories, subjective morality and relativism as the new reality.

My question is are we still in the Postmodern era or are we moving into a new era. The reason being is that we have had Postmodernism for some time. It seems to me we have moved beyond Postmodern relativism. Postmodernism though relative and self referential initially was the idea that there were many truths and not objective truths.

I remember 20 or 30 years ago it was all about multiculturalism. The west had to be more multicultural. The basic idea was allowing for diverse beliefs and ideas but the west was still a unique culture based on their history of Christianity and widely supported. Both Christianity and other cultures could exist altogether as one big happy melting pot of society. That was the true essence of Postmodernism relativism that all truths could live together and none were dominate and more true than the other.

Then things changed. Almost a sudden shift post 2000 into PC, CC and identity politics. Of course we know that this was no accident. That the groundwork for this was laid through academia Postmodernist Critical theories and into the institutions.

But it is this period where I think we have shifted into the beginning of a Post Christian era. Because as mentioned God and Christianity was being critiqued, then questioned, then rejected and then replaced with the Postmodern ideas of the late 20th and early 21st centuries which has established itself as a post Christian secular society. Such as with progressive and humanistic ideology.

Its the beginning of an era where Christianity is no longer being tolerated in the market place whereas before it was tolerated as one of the many alternative truths. So a line has been crossed where predominatly the scales have tipped from a Christian norm, to a relative norm thats accepted Christianity and now to post Christian norms reject Christianity out of the public square.

Hense I think we are beginning the Post Christian era. Its been around long enough to have become the norm. Like other eras which overlap there will still be varying degrees of intolerance for Christianity and God at first.

But as the Post Christian era becomes more established I think Christianity will not only be not allowed but not tolerated. If the same trajectory that is occuring now where secular ideology and Christianity are clashing in a growing number of issues with Christianity coming off second best then we should expect a more complete rejection and intolerance as the era becomes more established.

PS: I think the evolution from the Postmodern era into a Post Christian one may also be seen as representative of a larger change in worldview from the Christian worldview that has lasted in varying degrees throughout western history up until maybe around the 80s or 90's. But definitely post 2000. As opposed to the PostChristian era where the worldview is secular, materialistic and antiChristian.

In other world fundementally this is a battle of worldviews where Christianity has been the worldview up until recently and now a secular worldview without God and Christianity has taken over for the first time in western history. We as western societies are now moving into a world atheists claimed would be better. A world without God. They are finally achieving their Godless utopia.

I think that what you are calling an "era", is simply what you think
is popular at a certain time.

What are you actually asserting, in this thread?

 

[Merrill]

Good post

I would add that not only are we in the post-Christian era, we are seeing the ascendancy of Islam, especially in Europe.

Islam doesn't get targeted the way Christianity does in the US (there is some pushback in Europe, but it is pretty minimal). That faith seems to be insulated from some of the ideological excess of the modern/post-modern left. An alliance of convenience has been made between Democrats and many Muslim groups in the US --but that isn't going to last

When the pandemic struck, and governors and mayors started shutting down states, churches ended up being closed as well: including Catholic Churches which have strict rules about the delivery of sacraments (confession, communion, baptism, last-rites, etc.). Votaries were cut off from their places of worship, people died without last rites or baptism. Churches moved to Zoom calls, didn't push back against government overreach and suppression, and hundreds of thousands of people left the faith permanently.

It was the worst disaster for the faith since the Roman persecutions of the early church.

But the slow-motion disaster is the intrusion of ideology and politics into denominations. The Catholic Church in Germany is basically going into schism over celibacy and gay issues. The SBC has lost millions of members in the past 4 years. Mainline protestant denominations are in chaos. I mentioned on another post that the "New Calvinism" looked promising until the pandemic and missteps by some prominent figures (Matt Chandler, etc.) derailed that effort.

In the future, we can expect the church to lost its tax-exempt status, be subjected to new government oversight, and some will simply be shut down for not bending the knee. The Democratic Party, and left in general, hates Christianity, will not tolerate it, and will do everything to destroy it.

 

[com7fy8]

My question is are we still in the Postmodern era or are we moving into a new era.

"moving" . . . growing and developing of the same thing . . . this evil world is still Satan's thing, going through changes. Maybe we could say, one grows into another, but things have not really changed in people's character.

The basic idea was allowing for diverse beliefs and ideas but the west was still a unique culture based on their history of Christianity and widely supported. Both Christianity and other cultures could exist altogether as one big happy melting pot of society. That was the true essence of Postmodernism relativism that all truths could live together and none were dominate and more true than the other.

I see the clever trick > first say let there be peace for everyone; then Christianity has been made equal so then it can be brought down lower and rejected.

an era where Christianity is no longer being tolerated in the market place whereas before it was tolerated as one of the many alternative truths.

Ones are intolerant of what they understand is Christianity.

Hense I think we are beginning the Post Christian era.

And already you have said >

cultural

There is a major difference between Biblical Christianity and what is showing culturally. My opinion is that Christian homes have helped to produce what we are seeing now. Now is a product, I mean, of *cultural* Christianity which has not worked, at home, so kids have gone after their own things which now are also working horribly.

I think Christianity will not only be not allowed but not tolerated.

Children have seen how their Sunday-only church culture has not resulted in genuine loving at home; so in their desperation to get affection and acceptance they have gone to their peers who likewise are sure to fail without Jesus and without how God's word says to become and to relate in love.

In other world fundementally this is a battle of worldviews where Christianity has been the worldview up until recently and now a secular worldview without God and Christianity has taken over for the first time in western history. We as western societies are now moving into a world atheists claimed would be better. A world without God. They are finally achieving their Godless utopia.

There might have been some "view" which is correct, but the Bible has a lot more than what has been the so-called worldview. And now we have "born-again" culture, even, with its one-size-fits-all copy-cat ways to become "born-again". And children see this does not work and look elsewhere.

But we have had the underground church, all along. God's thing has been growing, all along. And what always has worked is His grace through Jesus and trusting in Jesus. And God always uses His word, and our prayer and example and obedience to do whatever God has us doing.

 

[stevevw]

I think that what you are calling an "era", is simply what you think
is popular at a certain time.
What are you actually asserting, in this thread?

I think its more than what I just think. I am trying to take a step back and look at our current state of affairs and thinking compared to other periods and to see whether we have moved on from what most philosophers and historians say is the Postmodern era.

Some people say we are in the Anthropocene era in that humans are now controlling things, controlling nature itself. Its no longer just the forces of nature but humans directing the course of nature. Including global warming and all that. We are leaving our fingerprints on everything.

But eras like Medievil, Modernism and Postmodernism are particular forms of thinking and belief. Past eras have always had an element of religious belief right up until the 20th century or the beginning of the 21st century. The worldview has alwaysd considered God as part of the metaphiscal belief.

But now for the first time really at least in the west which is the bastion of Christianity and Enlightenment the public square is not just devoid of belief but clashing with it. So theres a battle going on in the west over metaphysics and the nature of reality.

Thats why I liken it more to ers's of thinking and belief because fundementally its a different worldview. Postmodernism is about relativity. It stemmed from critiquing the art and literature and then moved into culture itself. Academics question the existing truths and facts and offered alternative ways of knowing.

But it was at first not so dogmatic being that it was about relativity. All truths were interpretations of reality. But as Postmodernism has matured it has morphed into a dogmatism that a certain kind of truth is the only valid truth. That truth now happens to reject God and Christianity specifically. Its no longer a neutral position of relativity in thinking and belief.

For that reason I think we have moved from Postmodernism into a Post Christian era. Because like I said era's are worldviews. They occupy all thinking including beliefs about morality and reality itself which are then reflected in social norms. The era begins slowly as a fringe movement just like Postmodernism did with Modernism with the fringe Critical theories.

But then they take over and and once that happens it is then challenged itself and thus begins a new era. In this case Postmodernism could not be susutained without truth. The reality is you can't have many truths. But rather than go back to the Christian Truth which sustained us for so long we have moved into a PostChristian truth that has replaced Christianity.

In doing so it naturally is antagonistic to God and Christianity because well it has been the truth for millenia and they know it. Its their biggest competitor and a threat. Like I said its about a worldview in thinking and belief that dictates social norms in the public square.

You can't have 2 truths at the same time. So the anti God truth is the new era of thinking and belief. A post Christian era because its specifically designed to move on from Christianity.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

History is marked by eras. These are usually based on literature as this lays down our knowledge. It begins with prehistoric moves through the ancient, middle age and Medievil era's. Then comes the Renaissance and age of exploration. Then begins the Modern era around 1620 which brought Enlightenment, the industrial revolution, the Romantic era and into the High Modern era. Then came the Postmodernism era and everything that comes with it such as the cultural revolutions, critical theories, subjective morality and relativism as the new reality.

My question is are we still in the Postmodern era or are we moving into a new era. The reason being is that we have had Postmodernism for some time. It seems to me we have moved beyond Postmodern relativism. Postmodernism though relative and self referential initially was the idea that there were many truths and not objective truths.

I remember 20 or 30 years ago it was all about multiculturalism. The west had to be more multicultural. The basic idea was allowing for diverse beliefs and ideas but the west was still a unique culture based on their history of Christianity and widely supported. Both Christianity and other cultures could exist altogether as one big happy melting pot of society. That was the true essence of Postmodernism relativism that all truths could live together and none were dominate and more true than the other.

Then things changed. Almost a sudden shift post 2000 into PC, CC and identity politics. Of course we know that this was no accident. That the groundwork for this was laid through academia Postmodernist Critical theories and into the institutions.

But it is this period where I think we have shifted into the beginning of a Post Christian era. Because as mentioned God and Christianity was being critiqued, then questioned, then rejected and then replaced with the Postmodern ideas of the late 20th and early 21st centuries which has established itself as a post Christian secular society. Such as with progressive and humanistic ideology.

Its the beginning of an era where Christianity is no longer being tolerated in the market place whereas before it was tolerated as one of the many alternative truths. So a line has been crossed where predominatly the scales have tipped from a Christian norm, to a relative norm thats accepted Christianity and now to post Christian norms reject Christianity out of the public square.

Hense I think we are beginning the Post Christian era. Its been around long enough to have become the norm. Like other eras which overlap there will still be varying degrees of intolerance for Christianity and God at first.

But as the Post Christian era becomes more established I think Christianity will not only be not allowed but not tolerated. If the same trajectory that is occuring now where secular ideology and Christianity are clashing in a growing number of issues with Christianity coming off second best then we should expect a more complete rejection and intolerance as the era becomes more established.

PS: I think the evolution from the Postmodern era into a Post Christian one may also be seen as representative of a larger change in worldview from the Christian worldview that has lasted in varying degrees throughout western history up until maybe around the 80s or 90's. But definitely post 2000. As opposed to the PostChristian era where the worldview is secular, materialistic and antiChristian.

In other world fundementally this is a battle of worldviews where Christianity has been the worldview up until recently and now a secular worldview without God and Christianity has taken over for the first time in western history. We as western societies are now moving into a world atheists claimed would be better. A world without God. They are finally achieving their Godless utopia.

... I wouldn't call it a Godless utopia. It's becoming increasingly godless, yes, but it's hardly ideal or utopian. If anything, it smacks of becoming a Brave New World. But, y'know. Revelation is going to be fulfilled one way or another.

 

[stevevw]

... I wouldn't call it a Godless utopia. It's becoming increasingly godless, yes, but it's hardly ideal or utopian. If anything, it smacks of becoming a Brave New World. But, y'know. Revelation is going to be fulfilled one way or another.

I think like all Era's it doesn't begin with a bang and suddenly we are in a new era. It begins slow and fragmented. As it has over the last 50 years or so with the gradual cultivation of secular ideology within institutions until it begins to spill into the maainstream and become norms.

So its patchy at first, inconsistent. Some CHristian belief is allowed more in some places than others. Like with abortion theres a tussle of control going back and forth. But eventually the more time goes by the more the secular ideology takes over and wins control and then becomes the norm.

Like with say marriage, the family and religious worship. Three important aspects of Christianity. First marriage is weakened, then the family through secular laws and norms gradually weakening Christainity. Then Christian belief itself is undermined and loses it place of importance and influence on mainstream society.

It all works to undermine and weaken one era to be replaced by another. We know the CHristian worldview was once the norm without question. Then it was questioned over time and then challenged with an alternative but they both competed still.

Now the alternative has taken over. Not quite fully yet but the secular ideology has taken hold enough to complete the job of eradicating God to the fringes in the near future. But never in the west has God been so rejected and ejected from the public square.
'
So I would say we are moving into the God less period and we know what happens when humans completely reject God and worship other gods and idols.

Of note I believe that we have also seen at the same time the gradual destablisation of order in the west and around the world. As seen with the rising conflicts within societies and between nations.

 

[stevevw]

"moving" . . . growing and developing of the same thing . . . this evil world is still Satan's thing, going through changes. Maybe we could say, one grows into another, but things have not really changed in people's character.

I think we have grown out of God now. In the past and even the recent past even 10 or 12 years ago we still sort of respected God or at least most people tolerated God and Christian beliefs in the public square.

But in recent years we have seen a big increase in intolerance of God and Christianity. A shift in the secular position to be more explicit and proactive against God. So though secularism has been around for a long time and becoiming more dominant in the last 50 or 60 years it never quite took the position of completely rejecting Christianity. I think this is a significant shift in belief and thinking.

I see the clever trick > first say let there be peace for everyone; then Christianity has been made equal so then it can be brought down lower and rejected.

I am not sure it was a explicit trick but rather a natural progression of the ideological thinking. You could say the idea of 'Postmodern relativity' is another way of rejecting God by inviting alternatives in to compete. But it was natural for people to question the church and its claim to one truth.

But the logic of relativity inevitably undermines itself as in claiming there is no truth you are claiming a truth. So eventually the idea weakens and cannot be sustained in reality. But rather than coming back to Gods truth a secular truth has been created that takes Gods place as truth such as humanism or Wokism. So in that sense you could say in reality the intention was always to undermine Gods truth.

Ones are intolerant of what they understand is Christianity.

Yes of course, a whole view of Christianity. Its biased and against Christianity before they understand it. Thats why I think fundementally this is about a spiritual and metaphysical battle of two different ways to see truth and reality. One God made the other Human made. Human secular ideology copies Gods truth with false versions that look good but fail ultimately.

There is a major difference between Biblical Christianity and what is showing culturally. My opinion is that Christian homes have helped to produce what we are seeing now. Now is a product, I mean, of *cultural* Christianity which has not worked, at home, so kids have gone after their own things which now are also working horribly.

I think at least for western nations their culture was heavily influenced by a Christian worldview up until recent times. For example we still allowed prayer in public, recognised marriage between man and women, celebrated Christs birth and death as a society and governments recognised God to an extent.

But in recent times especially suddenly in the last 10 or 15 years there has been specific efforts to rid society of God and Christianity and I suggest that has coincided with a cultural change which is secular Wokism or whatever you want to call it. But a secular idea that is progressive and therefore conflicts with Christianity so therefore both cannot exist at the same time and Christianity is the loser.

Children have seen how their Sunday-only church culture has not resulted in genuine loving at home; so in their desperation to get affection and acceptance they have gone to their peers who likewise are sure to fail without Jesus and without how God's word says to become and to relate in love.

Yes part of the problem that society is moving away from God is due to the poor representation of God in society. In its place are alternatives. Social media is a big one. It fills the space of parent, advisor and counsellor with many influencers and ideas about how to be happy and suceed.

There might have been some "view" which is correct, but the Bible has a lot more than what has been the so-called worldview. And now we have "born-again" culture, even, with its one-size-fits-all copy-cat ways to become "born-again". And children see this does not work and look elsewhere.

The Bible says we must not be conformed to this world and I think this is the primary difference and battle going on between worldviews of secular ideology and Gods Kingdom on earth. Being born again gives a complete different mindset being transformed in your mind and spirit.

So of course its going to clash with a worldview fundementally and metaphysically. But up until recently seculart worldview accommodated God to a fair extent. Now its crossed a threshold of intolerance and as Christ said in the last days Christians will be persecuted for simply believing in Christ. I think this is the start, the post Christian era.

But we have had the underground church, all along. God's thing has been growing, all along. And what always has worked is His grace through Jesus and trusting in Jesus. And God always uses His word, and our prayer and example and obedience to do whatever God has us doing.

Yes there will always be Christ church plodding along in the background which does not belong to any particular culture and can happen in any circumstance. In fact works best when Christians are made to stand up for their faith. Sorts the wheat for the Chaff.

At the same time while the west is declining frtom God many are coming to Godf in the most oppressive nations where you would think is the last place like Iran and China.

Perhaps as Christians are rejected and persecuted in the west we will see a revival where many great works are done in the midst of an anti God world that may save non Christians.

 

[stevevw]

Good post

I would add that not only are we in the post-Christian era, we are seeing the ascendancy of Islam, especially in Europe.

Islam doesn't get targeted the way Christianity does in the US (there is some pushback in Europe, but it is pretty minimal). That faith seems to be insulated from some of the ideological excess of the modern/post-modern left. An alliance of convenience has been made between Democrats and many Muslim groups in the US --but that isn't going to last

Yes this is an interesting point and one I meant to mention. Its a strange misture of anti God or rather more specifically ant CHrist ideology. Islam and Woke are so different and yet make strange bedfellows. We see that with movements such as LGBTIQ+ for Palestine or BLM against the traditional western Christian truth our nations were built on.

But I think this just exposes that fundementally this is really a spiritual battle between Christ and Satan. That of all beliefs Christian belief is singled out for the most hate. Even tolerating terrorism rather than siding with Christian truths.

When the pandemic struck, and governors and mayors started shutting down states, churches ended up being closed as well: including Catholic Churches which have strict rules about the delivery of sacraments (confession, communion, baptism, last-rites, etc.). Votaries were cut off from their places of worship, people died without last rites or baptism. Churches moved to Zoom calls, didn't push back against government overreach and suppression, and hundreds of thousands of people left the faith permanently.
It was the worst disaster for the faith since the Roman persecutions of the early church.

Yes and at the same time certain elites were allowed to gather. We have seen the continuation of this descrimination in how the State specifically goes after Catholics and Christians such as those expressing their beliefs in public especially online.

But that just shows how the State, the Left hate God and see Christianity as just a 'thing' unimportant and fake that people don't really need it. This has been the growing attitude as the world becomes more materialistic.

But the slow-motion disaster is the intrusion of ideology and politics into denominations. The Catholic Church in Germany is basically going into schism over celibacy and gay issues. The SBC has lost millions of members in the past 4 years. Mainline protestant denominations are in chaos. I mentioned on another post that the "New Calvinism" looked promising until the pandemic and missteps by some prominent figures (Matt Chandler, etc.) derailed that effort.

In the future, we can expect the church to lost its tax-exempt status, be subjected to new government oversight, and some will simply be shut down for not bending the knee. The Democratic Party, and left in general, hates Christianity, will not tolerate it, and will do everything to destroy it.

The conflict in the churches just shopws how the world ideology has crept in to undermine and divide. We should expect increasing ostracisation and persecution as the secular State takes more control.

All that will be left is Christ true Church and we know that secular ideology and Christ truths cannot coexist so it stands to reason that as secular ideology takes more root and dominates that Christians will become an enermy of the State even if that means making life hard to be a Christian.

I think we are at a pivotable point because the stakes are high and the personal has become the political. So the worldviews will clash as a matter of life and death and theres no going back unless theres a big shakeup.

 

[com7fy8]

in claiming there is no truth you are claiming a truth.

The real truth is Jesus Himself. So, when people get into endless arguing about ideas . . . this can be a trick to get attention away from Jesus and how He is the true way to be and to love. Both "sides" can be wrong . . . not living and loving the way God's word means.

I think fundementally this is about a spiritual and metaphysical battle of two different ways to see truth and reality.

Well . . . there is the preference for pleasure, which can have a lot to do with what people want and therefore prefer to believe what is ok with how they prefer to get their pleasure.

marriage between man and women

Even heterosexuals can be more about how they prefer to get their pleasure, not really about how to become and relate in love.

when Christians are made to stand up for their faith

Our Apostle Paul says we need "faith working through love," in Galatians 5:6.

Jesus did not just give us correct ideas to believe. His enemies did not make much of a thing about things He said to believe. But they attacked Jesus for forgiving, for healing, for loving and sharing with people who were not socially accepted.

 

[Aaron112]

A lot of things change.

 

[stevevw]

The real truth is Jesus Himself. So, when people get into endless arguing about ideas . . . this can be a trick to get attention away from Jesus and how He is the true way to be and to love. Both "sides" can be wrong . . . not living and loving the way God's word means.

Yes so this relates to I mentioned that fundementally its a spiritual battle about Christ. Out of all alternative beliefs that are suppose to be allowed to occupt the public square Christs truth is the only one hated when it comes down to it. Even coming last to Islamists. But funny enough that is exactly the true motivation of why Islamist hate Christians. Thats why they make strange bedfellows with secular ideology.

Well . . . there is the preference for pleasure, which can have a lot to do with what people want and therefore prefer to believe what is ok with how they prefer to get their pleasure.

Yes this has been seen throughout history. When we don't honor God we turn to our base instincts and make them into gods.

Even heterosexuals can be more about how they prefer to get their pleasure, not really about how to become and relate in love.

Yes all are sinners and primarily regardless of what sin when we reject God we naturally become the gods of our own lives. It actually takes more effort and chaos to maintain a Godless life as it goes against the natural order of things. Theres more that goes against the grain, has to be rationalised and sits uncomfortably. Even though people think it brings more happiness and pleasure it actually doesn't in the end.

Our Apostle Paul says we need "faith working through love," in Galatians 5:6.

Jesus did not just give us correct ideas to believe. His enemies did not make much of a thing about things He said to believe. But they attacked Jesus for forgiving, for healing, for loving and sharing with people who were not socially accepted.

Actually I think tyhe Pharisees were devious and did not have a heart. They witnessed Christs miracles but could not see past their own pride for power. Worse that they used Gods law to trip people up.

But there were some Jews who immediately recognised Christ as Gods Son. Even some gentile Romans who could not deny what they had seen and had greater faith than most people. This was especially amazing in that Rome had a Pagnistic worldview.

In some ways history repeats itself in that we can see the Pharisees again but this time its the Woke and we see the paganism rising again. While at the same time those who we would least expect to be saved such as those in Iran and China where revivals are happening.

I think just like Christians were denied and persecuted under the Roman Empire the same may happen again under the secular Empire this time. Just as Christianity from its powerful start with Christs resurrection eventually became the faith of the Roman Empire and the west it has come full circle and is now being consumed by that empire and returning to those days of denial and persecution.

 

[FireDragon76]

... I wouldn't call it a Godless utopia. It's becoming increasingly godless, yes, but it's hardly ideal or utopian. If anything, it smacks of becoming a Brave New World. But, y'know. Revelation is going to be fulfilled one way or another.

Brave New World? We are already living in a dystopian cyberpunk novel, at least in the US. The government is weak and inept, degenerated into a Punch and Judy show for the masses, and the public sphere is ruled by a handful of powerful corporations that have an almost religious hold on the public.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

History is marked by eras. These are usually based on literature as this lays down our knowledge. It begins with prehistoric moves through the ancient, middle age and Medievil era's. Then comes the Renaissance and age of exploration. Then begins the Modern era around 1620 which brought Enlightenment, the industrial revolution, the Romantic era and into the High Modern era. Then came the Postmodernism era and everything that comes with it such as the cultural revolutions, critical theories, subjective morality and relativism as the new reality.

My question is are we still in the Postmodern era or are we moving into a new era. The reason being is that we have had Postmodernism for some time. It seems to me we have moved beyond Postmodern relativism. Postmodernism though relative and self referential initially was the idea that there were many truths and not objective truths.

I remember 20 or 30 years ago it was all about multiculturalism. The west had to be more multicultural. The basic idea was allowing for diverse beliefs and ideas but the west was still a unique culture based on their history of Christianity and widely supported. Both Christianity and other cultures could exist altogether as one big happy melting pot of society. That was the true essence of Postmodernism relativism that all truths could live together and none were dominate and more true than the other.

Then things changed. Almost a sudden shift post 2000 into PC, CC and identity politics. Of course we know that this was no accident. That the groundwork for this was laid through academia Postmodernist Critical theories and into the institutions.

But it is this period where I think we have shifted into the beginning of a Post Christian era. Because as mentioned God and Christianity was being critiqued, then questioned, then rejected and then replaced with the Postmodern ideas of the late 20th and early 21st centuries which has established itself as a post Christian secular society. Such as with progressive and humanistic ideology.

Its the beginning of an era where Christianity is no longer being tolerated in the market place whereas before it was tolerated as one of the many alternative truths. So a line has been crossed where predominatly the scales have tipped from a Christian norm, to a relative norm thats accepted Christianity and now to post Christian norms reject Christianity out of the public square.

Hense I think we are beginning the Post Christian era. Its been around long enough to have become the norm. Like other eras which overlap there will still be varying degrees of intolerance for Christianity and God at first.

But as the Post Christian era becomes more established I think Christianity will not only be not allowed but not tolerated. If the same trajectory that is occuring now where secular ideology and Christianity are clashing in a growing number of issues with Christianity coming off second best then we should expect a more complete rejection and intolerance as the era becomes more established.

PS: I think the evolution from the Postmodern era into a Post Christian one may also be seen as representative of a larger change in worldview from the Christian worldview that has lasted in varying degrees throughout western history up until maybe around the 80s or 90's. But definitely post 2000. As opposed to the PostChristian era where the worldview is secular, materialistic and antiChristian.

In other world fundementally this is a battle of worldviews where Christianity has been the worldview up until recently and now a secular worldview without God and Christianity has taken over for the first time in western history. We as western societies are now moving into a world atheists claimed would be better. A world without God. They are finally achieving their Godless utopia.

Yes... society is preparing to classify Christianity as a cult. Society considers a religion a cult when the masses reject it. Jehovah Witnesses are considered a cult. Some even call Mormonism a cult. As Christianity continues to decline in numbers and become less popular, it is headed for cult status. Soon, aspects of the Christian faith will be scrutinized and condemned by this culture. We eat the flesh of Christ and drink His blood. We reject those whom we deem sinners against the faith. Many question the role of women in the church and even society. We proclaim the faithful to belong to a whole different and superior race. Of course, we do not frame these things in these ways, but those eager to relegate the church into obscurity and irrelevance will frame it as they see fit.
I pray I am wrong, but the Word says that there will be a great falling away. Many will not be able to endure the rejection and persecution and will likely fall away.

 

[stevevw]

Yes... society is preparing to classify Christianity as a cult. Society considers a religion a cult when the masses reject it. Jehovah Witnesses are considered a cult. Some even call Mormonism a cult. As Christianity continues to decline in numbers and become less popular, it is headed for cult status. Soon, aspects of the Christian faith will be scrutinized and condemned by this culture. We eat the flesh of Christ and drink His blood. We reject those whom we deem sinners against the faith. Many question the role of women in the church and even society. We proclaim the faithful to belong to a whole different and superior race. Of course, we do not frame these things in these ways, but those eager to relegate the church into obscurity and irrelevance will frame it as they see fit.
I pray I am wrong, but the Word says that there will be a great falling away. Many will not be able to endure the rejection and persecution and will likely fall away.

I think people for a long time have deemed God and Christianity as a cult or delusion for a long time. It peaked in the early 2000's with the new Atheists like the 4 horseman such as Hitchens and Dawkins and has been going ever since.

But I think its moved beyond just mocking God and Christians. Obviously the new atheists were not just mocking God. They were also proclaiming a new way. A Godless world which will be much better and that has been developing as well to the point we are at today.

So you could say the new Atheists and belief in the idea of no religion or God and whatever stands is the new metaphysical and moral worldview. Its that worldview and ideology that has been cultivated for a long time that it is now replacing the Christian worldview we lived with for most of our history.

So now its not just ridiculed but outright defiance and rejection and the cultivation of a Godless ideology. Even an anti God ideology. Even to the point of being a cult in itself. The ideology has become the very thing it ridiculed and said was harmful and unreal.

But of course no one will admit this for the very reason that its designed to defy Gods truth. So it will become more cunning and powerful in the effort to deny Gods truth. Even if that means persecuting Christians to shut down Gods truth because its a thorn in its side.

 

[stevevw]

Metamodernism is the term for the cultural and philosophical movement that came after postmodernism. It's characterized by a synthesis of modernism and postmodernism, and a response to the cynicism and irony of postmodernism.

Metamodernism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You might like On Naming the Present.

On Naming the Present

Arguably the most respected Catholic systematic theologian in the English-speaking world, David Tracy’s growing influence internationally and on persons of other Christian traditions and his ability to communicate with representatives of the secular academy stem from the unique quality of his...

orbisbooks.com

I reviewed the book:

I find that with books by David Tracy one should not be in a hurry. Rather than finishing one ought to just let the book do its formation in the soul. It takes concentration to read David Tracy, but in the process there is a deepening that can be experienced.

I wont try to summarize this book. But I will say that it takes us through the theological impact of living in a "polycentric" world that must account for "global suffering". With only 139 pages I think it makes a great book for personal reflection, challenging and stretching for those who find their own personal theology in need of new avenues.

I am not a professional theologian, so it was not an easy read. But well worth the work.

"The God of history, thanks to the remarkable achievements of the political, liberation, and feminist theologians, can now be viewed as the God revealed in the history of Jesus, i.e., the history of the God revealed in the hiddenness of suffering, negativity, cross. By empowering human beings to become agents of history rather than either passive participant of whatever happens or modern compulsive egos, the new vision of God also frees the "mystical" part of the mystical-political option to its own new understanding of God as love - a love so excessive it is ultimately incomprehensible."

This is interesting I will have to read some of Tracy's work. I am not a theologian either but as you say it can enlighten the mind.

I think I get what your saying. Having gone beyond postmodernism and having the hindsight and experience of modernism and postmodernism we have moved into a sort of meta view of the overall prgession of those paridigms.

Its interesting Metamodernism is descibed as swing back and forth between the "sincere seriousness of modernism to the ironic playfulness of postmodernism".

I think its gone beyond that. Its not the playfulness of postmodernism anymore. Postmodernism was a sort of liberation from any restricted ideology and the idea of liberating experience of 'self'' as the true determination of reality. All points of views were included and therefore all alternative ideas and beliefs were real through our experiences.

But it seems we have now gone beyond that playfulness and have become more dogmatic and judgemental. Its no longer about all truths in the playground but certain truths over other truths. We see this in how society is so divided along cultural lines. Even disputing what use to be scientific fact only 10 years ago even.

Perhaps it may be that underlying these paradigm shifts was the seperation from metaphysical beliefs. Traditionally we kept the subjective ideas seperate from facts. Then with postmodernism this merged everything into the 'self' being the truth rather than being able to keep different aspect of reality seperated. So the critiquer was no longer just critiquing but their critiques actually became facts and reality.

We see this progression in how only 10 or 15 years ago biological sex was an objective fact we all accepted. Then it gradually flipped into subjective identity being the fact and objective biology being the social construction. We could find many examples of how the meanings have changed. Also in how the political has become the personal.

This convergence has quickly moved us beyond the playfull postmodernism to a new kind of seriousness which is morally based. The religious in the form of metaphysical beliefs has become entangled with peoples worldview. There is no more seperation. Its all coming down to a spiritaul battle. Fundementally its been a spiritual battle all along.

But as we become more aware and have this deeper understanding we also know the truth better. Like with biological sex. So the only option is to deny this through ideology. To create an alternative truth based on self rather than anything else. Rather than objective reality.

I think we are just entering the beginning of this stage.

Now theres a movement to try and re-adjust things back to the middle, back to the long held truths we have always known. But there will be resistence. The opposition that wants to create the new reality will fight the truth and create new ways to progress the ideology even reinventing itself.

But I think this is the beginning and we can see that its come down to a clash of worldviews, paradigms and ideologies about the truth and reality itself.

Its no longer the playful all inclusive postmodernism I think. Its developing into a battle for truth itself. Its no longer live and let live and all truths are welcome. Thats why I think we have quickly moved from one paradigm to another in recent years because its coming to a head about truth and reality itself.

In fact you could say that once the church and Christianity was the truth installed on society even becoming dogmatic. We then went through a period of questioning and freeing ourselves from the church because we became more inclusive of alternative beliefs.

Now we have come full circle and the pendulem has swung in the opposite direction of church dogmatism to secular ideology now being the new dogma and truth. So its flipped and its no longer inclusive but dogmatic in favor of anti Christian ideologies becoming the new substitute truth to the point of attacking Christianity as the enermy of the new State created religion of ideology.

That bias against Christianity was always brewing but was held in check by the acceptance of including alternative truths. But in recent times its crossed a line and is now explicitly attacking Christian truths because the two worldviews have become polarised in recent times due to the growing popularity of progressive secularism.