Strange Bedfellows

[GodSaves]

My point Vance is, who in this forum, right here, are you trying to save? Are you trying to save me? Are you trying to save Beowulf? Are you trying to save Micaiah? In here you are preaching to those who most likely are already saved. So who here are you trying to save? You cannot argue anyone here into changing their beliefs.

You say you are trying to undo the work that has been done. But I fail to see who here, in this forum, is losing their salvation because of the issue of YEC.

Do you think Paul changed the minds of all those Jews who believed you must be circumcised? Do you think Paul devoted his life to change the beliefs of those Jews, or did Paul rather spend his time speaking to the Gentiles telling them circumcism is not neccessary to salvation? So, why spend your time speaking out against YEC's telling them they are wrong, when you could rather speak to non-believers and tell them that the belief in YEC is not directly related to salvation.

The only thing that is accomplished in this forum by speaking out against YEC/TE/GAP/OEC is to create a debate or an arguement. You don't change people's beliefs, not by that way. So why do you spend time doing this, saying you are trying to save those from falling into the trap of believing YEC is needed in order to be saved, directly at YEC's? Why not with non-believers? Unless you feel YEC's are the ones who are needing to be saved. Then you too think that YEC will lose their salvation because of their belief in YEC.

How much good is being done for non-believers by arguing against YEC's about their beliefs? How much good was done by arguing a fellow believer today? How much good was done by putting Beowulf down, in a subtle way, whether you meant to or not? Is your faith producing good works, everyday? If not, why not. That is something we each need to ask ourselves, all the time.

 

[artybloke]

By arguing for YEC, you, my friend, just like the judaisers whose mantle you have inherited, are putting a stumbling-block before all those people who might be saved but look at YECism and say, "I like Jesus and all he stands for, but if I have to believe that, and it's obviously a lie, then I can't do that." Just as the judaisers put a stumbling-block before all those potential Gentile Christians by insisting on their getting circumscised and following the law. By all means, believe whatever nonsense you want to believe, but don't insist that only by believing in YEC creationism can you be a real Christian, because, friend, you are preventing others from even investigating Christianity.

 

[Vance]

Godsaves, you obviously have not read my original post in my "Why I Post" thread. Please do and it will answer all these questions.

1. As I say there, NO, I am not trying to convince any YEC to change their position. I say that right up front.

2. And NO, I do not think that those who believe in YEC are losing their salvation, again that shows a complete misunderstanding of what I am saying.

3. I am speaking to those two groups I discuss in that post. While I am debating the matter *with* YEC's, it is for the purpose of expressing the truth that it IS possible to believe in evolution and an old earth and still be a Christian. I fight against those who claim that the Scripture is inherently contradictory to evolution and an old earth, and that if one is true then the other is false.

Those people in those two categories are reading these forums. I know this because I have recieved private messages and emails from them. If I can, through these posts, reach just one more who is in a crisis of faith and about to abandon Christianity, or am able to reach one unbeliever who was skeptical about Christianity *because* of the YEC teaching, then it will all be worth it.

As it is, there have been posters on this forum and in the Creation and Science forum who have testified that coming to understand that there were Christians who accepted evolution kept them from leaving the Church, or encouraged them to conisder the Church in the first place, so I know we are doing God's work.

And no, posting as I do does not raise the debate, it is already there. Evolution IS what is believed by the majority of the educated world. It is also what will come to BE believed by countless numbers of our young people as they come to study the evidence. The conflict is there, and I am going to do my little bit in my little corner of the world, to prevent that conflict from resulting in lost souls.

 

[GodSaves]

By all means, believe whatever nonsense you want to believe, but don't insist that only by believing in YEC creationism can you be a real Christian, because, friend, you are preventing others from even investigating Christianity.

The Word of God says:
Matthew 7
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

And no, posting as I do does not raise the debate, it is already there. Evolution IS what is believed by the majority of the educated world. It is also what will come to BE believed by countless numbers of our young people as they come to study the evidence. The conflict is there, and I am going to do my little bit in my little corner of the world, to prevent that conflict from resulting in lost souls.

Debate is already there, and yes your posts adds to them just as much as mine do. So is your purpose to debate better here so that those who are watching will believe you and not another?

The young people will believe evolution because they were given no other alternative. The world has created this. That our children only are allowed to learn from one side of the spectrum about the creation of the universe. They are not allowed in school to learn about creationism.

What is the educated world? Why do I see this used so many times by theistic evolutionists? It is as if it something to be proud of oneself for. I get the feeling that what is meant is that those who choose to learn more about the Word of God instead of science are the uneducated.

You are doing your part Vance, and that is wonderful. I guess I am just either stupid or naive because I fail to understand how arguing amongst Christians helps in reaching those who do not believe in God. Not just you Vance, but everyone here who argues who is right and who is wrong.

I wonder what would happen in a forum like this if everyone stopped aruging and debating and instead uplifted each other and showed love, mercy, humility, and forgiveness in their writings. I guess that would defeat the purpose, we like to argue.

God Bless

 

[Vance]

“Debate is already there, and yes your posts adds to them just as much as mine do. So is your purpose to debate better here so that those who are watching will believe you and not another?”

Godsaves, really, please do read my post in that other thread. If you had, you would not be asking these questions. I do not expect someone to believe in theistic evolution, just to be aware that there is an alternative to this “either/or” teaching of YEC’ism which is a stumbling block for many people, a barrier to the Cross.

“The young people will believe evolution because they were given no other alternative.”

No, that is not true, they ARE given the other story of YEC’ism. The problem is that they are NOT being given this as one of the possible beliefs among Christians. They are given YEC’ism along with the belief that it MUST be true if you believe in Scripture. They are given YEC’ism and told that if you come to accept evolution, you might as well toss the whole Bible out! This has actually been said on this very forum and I have heard it taught at my very church!

“The world has created this. That our children only are allowed to learn from one side of the spectrum about the creation of the universe. They are not allowed in school to learn about creationism.”

That is because it is a religious belief and does not fall into the category of science. I agree, though, that they should be taught in a comparative religion class all about Creationism as a belief system, but unfortunately it would have to be right along with other religious beliefs about origins. The point is that many of our young Christians ARE taught Creationism, but are being taught it in a very dangerous way, as I describe above. The problem is NOT that our children are not being taught about Creationism.

“What is the educated world? Why do I see this used so many times by theistic evolutionists? It is as if it something to be proud of oneself for. I get the feeling that what is meant is that those who choose to learn more about the Word of God instead of science are the uneducated.”

No, it simply points out that those parts of the world that have higher educational levels (meaning the first world v. the third world) have all been taught the concepts of evolution. This is not a matter of pride at all. But the fact still is there that those who oppose evolution the most tend very much to be those who understand it the least. And, of course, it is a complete falsehood that those who hold to YEC'ism are more familiar with, or deeper immersed in, Scripture.

“You are doing your part Vance, and that is wonderful. I guess I am just either stupid or naive because I fail to understand how arguing amongst Christians helps in reaching those who do not believe in God. Not just you Vance, but everyone here who argues who is right and who is wrong.”

It definitely helps to inform those who come to view these forums that they can be a Christian even if they accept evolution. They are already on the evolution side regarding origins or are well on their way to reaching that conclusion, that will not be changed. The question is whether they will also be a Christian. To say that you can not see the value in keeping (or getting) these souls into the Kingdom is very surprising to me.

“I wonder what would happen in a forum like this if everyone stopped aruging and debating and instead uplifted each other and showed love, mercy, humility, and forgiveness in their writings. I guess that would defeat the purpose, we like to argue.”

No, it is not about arguing. It is not about being right. It is, for me, about making sure that people understand that a theistic belief in evolution is possible. And that it is NOT a worldly compromise. That it does not mean rejecting Scripture. That it does NOT mean accepting Man’s word over God’s Word. That it is a belief held by sincere, conservative, Bible-believing, Spirit-filled Christians all over the world.

That will do good for the Kingdom, I know it.

 

[Vance]

Bump since this issue has come up in one of the subforums.

 

[Vance]

By arguing for YEC, you, my friend, just like the judaisers whose mantle you have inherited, are putting a stumbling-block before all those people who might be saved but look at YECism and say, "I like Jesus and all he stands for, but if I have to believe that, and it's obviously a lie, then I can't do that." Just as the judaisers put a stumbling-block before all those potential Gentile Christians by insisting on their getting circumscised and following the law. By all means, believe whatever nonsense you want to believe, but don't insist that only by believing in YEC creationism can you be a real Christian, because, friend, you are preventing others from even investigating Christianity.

This parallel with the Judaisers is actually a very good one. It involves a group holding to traditional approaches and preaching it with the same vehemence as YEC's do today. And, in both cases, it is not a salvation issue, so there is simply no reason to be preaching the point as an "either/or" proposition.