Storing unreliable energy

Mountainmike

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In the interests of talking about something else: anything else!

The problem with wind and sun is they are both unreliable.
So who has bright ideas for storing energy , or the product of energy, till needed, other than big batteries.
As electric car stats show , big batteries are not a great idea. The immediate Cost is much of the CO2 they purport to save.So it can be tens of thousands of miles before they are other than a negative impact!

The golden oldie is pushing water uphill, as the mountain reservoir at snowden wales does.

But im thinking more of such as windmills on north fuerteventura. canaries.
Desalination costs lots of energy. These desalinate water , and can stockpile clean water to use when wind isn’t blowing.
So the product of energy is “ stored” as desalinated water.
Great idea! A stable product.

So ideas …

What other energetic processes can be done locally to windmills , to allowing stockpile Of energy or product of energy?
 
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Mountainmike

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The sun is unreliable?
It's been working just fine for the last 4.6 Billion years so far.
And will keep on working long after my great great great great grandkids have long gone died.

I know it’s a bit advanced: Have you Ever heard of cloud?
look up, it’s those white fluffy things.
Check out A picture of earth from space. There’s a lot of them about,
They don’t help solar power much.
 
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Mountainmike

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Mountainmike

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Those are all about energy itself.
My thread begged a slightly different question :


What energy using processes we already have, can stockpile non perishable product , but are small enough process to locate near windmills.

I noted two..
Desalination of water. ( windmills in the canary islands do that)

And the golden oldie
Windmills use to grind grain into flour

There are a lot of energy greedy processes in industry and food.
So what processes can use unreliable power/ locate near windfarms?

Packaging is a nightmare!
This is outrageous! Just bottles for Water!
“Large containers are more likely made of polycarbonate, which requires about 40% more energy to produce than bottle-grade PET. Although some companies are experimenting with producing lightweight bottles, the researchers calculated that the manufacturing cost of PET is about 4 million joules of energy per typical 1-liter PET bottle weighing 38 grams”
That’s a kw/hr, each ( which sounds too high)
and in the U.K. we drink 70bn - 100 bottles each . The answer to that is stop drinking single use bottle water in countries with taps! We waste a huge amount of energy.
 
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Occams Barber

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In the interests of talking about something else: anything else!

The problem with wind and sun is they are both unreliable.
So who has bright ideas for storing energy , or the product of energy, till needed, other than big batteries.
As electric car stats show , big batteries are not a great idea. The immediate Cost is much of the CO2 they purport to save.So it can be tens of thousands of miles before they are other than a negative impact!

The golden oldie is pushing water uphill, as the mountain reservoir at snowden wales does.

But im thinking more of such as windmills on north fuerteventura. canaries.
Desalination costs lots of energy. These desalinate water , and can stockpile clean water to use when wind isn’t blowing.
So the product of energy is “ stored” as desalinated water.
Great idea! A stable product.

So ideas …

What other energetic processes can be done locally to windmills , to allowing stockpile Of energy or product of energy?


Your OP and posts are a bit all over the place. You seem to be confusing energy storage with using electricity generating windmills for other tasks.

Putting your confusion aside. - Desalination requires electricity.
  • How can a windmill 'stockpile clean water' when the 'wind isn't blowing' i.e. when it isn't generating electricity?
  • How is stored desalinated water converted into electricity?

OB
 
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Mountainmike

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Your OP and posts are a bit all over the place. You seem to be confusing energy storage with using electricity generating windmills for other tasks.

Putting your confusion aside. - Desalination requires electricity.
  • How can a windmill 'stockpile clean water' when the 'wind isn't blowing' i.e. when it isn't generating electricity?
  • How is stored desalinated water converted into electricity?

OB
Nothing confusing at all .

Storage of actual electricity is a problem.
Not just because of the cost of the batteries in CO2 mfr, but also they self dsicharge, and they need to cycle to maintain efficiency. You can’t charge them one month , for use another,

So the thread asks - what can we stockpile as a non deteriorating product of energy to cope with the variation in power. . it’s a very sensible question.

Also many big energy use industrial processes require high temperature in such as kilns, so they cannot be trurned on and off at a whim, which is another necessary characteristic to stockpile product of energy.
 
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eclipsenow

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The problem with wind and sun is they are both unreliable.
So who has bright ideas for storing energy , or the product of energy, till needed, other than big batteries.
As electric car stats show , big batteries are not a great idea.
Great question! After my 'environmental awakening' nearly 20 years ago I read a stack of books and watched a stack of expert documentaries and read a stack of renewable energy stuff - and was just not convinced. The storage to get through winter would cost SO much money that the whole thing was completely insane. So I became a fan of nuclear power. I'm no scientist - but I learned enough from actual nuclear engineers to satisfy my fears as growing up Australian is to grow up anti-nuclear. It's in the cultural air we breathe.

But last year something weird happened. I changed my mind. Why?

The cost of renewables has dropped SO MUCH that we don't have to try and store a few months of electricity to get through winter. Rather, we just Overbuild the renewables! They're 1/4 the cost of nuclear power (Lazard) so we can massively Overbuild renewables to get through winter.

The intermittency of wind and solar can be solved with OS - Overbuild + Storage like OFF-river Pumped Hydro Electricity Storage (PHES). OVERBUILD: What to do if winter halves your electricity from renewables? Easy - double the renewables! It’s not rocket science. Simply OVERBUILD wind and solar! Aim for winter as your minimum requirement - and then the rest of the year you have an energy surplus you can do cool new things with. Overbuild used to be inconceivable but renewables have crashed to a tenth what they cost just over a decade ago! A renewable engineer tracked Australia’s terrible La Nina rainy year of 2022, releasing the weather and hypothetical 100% renewable energy impact data daily. At only 100% penetration of the grid, the storage required was quite expensive. But overbuilding the wind and solar farms just 70% reduced the storage to almost zero. A near 100 per cent renewables grid is well within reach, and with little storage

Also, spread your overbuild out over as wide an area as politically possible. HVDC transmission is so efficient it only loses 3% per 1000 km. EG: Perth afternoon sunshine could power dark Sydney evenings 4000 km away, only losing 12%. Extra spread reduces storage costs. For $100 billion, Australia could have a low cost and reliable zero emissions grid Basically, when we set WINTER as our building target we can reduce storage to 2 days for each city. Then if one city has a REALLY bad few weeks, they can borrow power from other cities in the area.

STORAGE: OFF-RIVER Pumped Hydro Electricity Storage: (PHES). On river is limited by potential sites and environmental concerns about damaging sensitive ecosystems. But if we turn our gaze to completely closed loop OFF-RIVER pumped hydro systems, satellite maps show most continents have 100 TIMES the potential topography we need. This is safer and cheaper - as it avoids building expensive spillways for 1 in 500 year flash floods events. When finished, pump the water in from the nearest river - which can be dozens of kilometres away. Cover in floating solar panels. It will lose some water to evaporation, but only 10% the water lost to cool thermal coal or nuclear. Blakers presents the data.
Global Atlas here Global Greenfield Pumped Hydro Energy Storage Atlas
But sodium batteries - yes sea salt batteries - are 30% cheaper than lithium and don't use any copper, cobalt, lithium or rare earths. So they're also an option. They're already being built in stackable cargo-carrier boxes in Australia.
(And iron batteries are coming along which could store power for 4 days.)
And the cost? The whole system ends up being cheaper than coal. 100% renewable electricity in Australia
So rather than see Storage and extra HVDC powerlines as an extra expense, they are more like your annual Costco membership that gets you in to the cheap energy supermarket. After all, Blakers says the Storage and HVDC together are only 30% of the cost of a renewables grid - giving you super-cheap and abundant energy in the 70% rest-of-cost in the Overbuilt renewables themselves.

But wait there's more!
Have you heard of SUPER-POWER? What do we do with heaps of super-cheap, super-abundant EXCESS energy the rest of the year? That's when we can desalinate extra water and store it in reservoirs, make hydrogen or synfuel, or even run a gasifier plant to process rubbish tips into useful building products. Gasification – waste into fuel and building materials
 
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Mountainmike

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Great question! After my 'environmental awakening' nearly 20 years ago I read a stack of books and watched a stack of expert documentaries and read a stack of renewable energy stuff - and was just not convinced. The storage to get through winter would cost SO much money that the whole thing was completely insane. So I became a fan of nuclear power. I'm no scientist - but I learned enough from actual nuclear engineers to satisfy my fears as growing up Australian is to grow up anti-nuclear. It's in the cultural air we breathe.

But last year something weird happened. I changed my mind. Why?

The cost of renewables has dropped SO MUCH that we don't have to try and store a few months of electricity to get through winter. Rather, we just Overbuild the renewables! They're 1/4 the cost of nuclear power (Lazard) so we can massively Overbuild renewables to get through winter.

The intermittency of wind and solar can be solved with OS - Overbuild + Storage like OFF-river Pumped Hydro Electricity Storage (PHES). OVERBUILD: What to do if winter halves your electricity from renewables? Easy - double the renewables! It’s not rocket science. Simply OVERBUILD wind and solar! Aim for winter as your minimum requirement - and then the rest of the year you have an energy surplus you can do cool new things with. Overbuild used to be inconceivable but renewables have crashed to a tenth what they cost just over a decade ago! A renewable engineer tracked Australia’s terrible La Nina rainy year of 2022, releasing the weather and hypothetical 100% renewable energy impact data daily. At only 100% penetration of the grid, the storage required was quite expensive. But overbuilding the wind and solar farms just 70% reduced the storage to almost zero. A near 100 per cent renewables grid is well within reach, and with little storage

Also, spread your overbuild out over as wide an area as politically possible. HVDC transmission is so efficient it only loses 3% per 1000 km. EG: Perth afternoon sunshine could power dark Sydney evenings 4000 km away, only losing 12%. Extra spread reduces storage costs. For $100 billion, Australia could have a low cost and reliable zero emissions grid Basically, when we set WINTER as our building target we can reduce storage to 2 days for each city. Then if one city has a REALLY bad few weeks, they can borrow power from other cities in the area.

STORAGE: OFF-RIVER Pumped Hydro Electricity Storage: (PHES). On river is limited by potential sites and environmental concerns about damaging sensitive ecosystems. But if we turn our gaze to completely closed loop OFF-RIVER pumped hydro systems, satellite maps show most continents have 100 TIMES the potential topography we need. This is safer and cheaper - as it avoids building expensive spillways for 1 in 500 year flash floods events. When finished, pump the water in from the nearest river - which can be dozens of kilometres away. Cover in floating solar panels. It will lose some water to evaporation, but only 10% the water lost to cool thermal coal or nuclear. Blakers presents the data.
Global Atlas here Global Greenfield Pumped Hydro Energy Storage Atlas
But sodium batteries - yes sea salt batteries - are 30% cheaper than lithium and don't use any copper, cobalt, lithium or rare earths. So they're also an option. They're already being built in stackable cargo-carrier boxes in Australia.
(And iron batteries are coming along which could store power for 4 days.)
And the cost? The whole system ends up being cheaper than coal. 100% renewable electricity in Australia
So rather than see Storage and extra HVDC powerlines as an extra expense, they are more like your annual Costco membership that gets you in to the cheap energy supermarket. After all, Blakers says the Storage and HVDC together are only 30% of the cost of a renewables grid - giving you super-cheap and abundant energy in the 70% rest-of-cost in the Overbuilt renewables themselves.

But wait there's more!
Have you heard of SUPER-POWER? What do we do with heaps of super-cheap, super-abundant EXCESS energy the rest of the year? That's when we can desalinate extra water and store it in reservoirs, make hydrogen or synfuel, or even run a gasifier plant to process rubbish tips into useful building products. Gasification – waste into fuel and building materials
It is the non energy storage - that interests me, like the desalination plant I mentiined in the OP

Here is the problem with unreliables. This is wind energy U.K.
It averages c30% but multiplying this graph won’t cure the gaps in it!
An 11 day gap is hard to filll.

1693490886425.png
 
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eclipsenow

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It is the non energy storage - that interests me, like the desalination plant I mentiined in the OP

Here is the problem with unreliables. This is wind energy U.K.
It averages c30% but multiplying this graph won’t cure the gaps in it!
An 11 day gap is hard to filll.

View attachment 335402
Except it's a myth. Where is the solar? Because you've intentionally left out the solar. Wind and solar complement each other and are 1/4 the cost of nuclear so we CAN overbuild them. I've seen papers that plan to Overbuild the electricity sector 3 times, then the industrial heating and transport 3 times. That's 6 times the capacity of today's grid - so more than accounts for the variation. Then there are all the other jobs all the excess power can do - like charge up thermal energy systems that store 1500 degrees C only losing 1% per day. If a metal smelting plant builds enough of these giant thermos-flasks (full of sand or brick laced with molten tin) then they can 'charge up' during periods of excess and be safe for 11 days if the power is more expensive. Then - obviously - they can also pump water up hill, charge sodium batteries, make synthetic fuels etc.
Finally - there's no such thing as an "English grid". The UK has inter-connectors to Europe. Indeed, some are even considering inter-connectors between the USA and Europe which would mean 20 hours a day sunshine would be hitting that grid somewhere! Geographic spread counts.
 
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