Stopping abortion

[livingproofGM]

This would seem to be one of the problems: If you don't care about the woman getting the abortion, then you don't have much chance of stopping it from happening, do you? In fact, this seems to be advocating death for women that get abortions . . . which isn't exactly what I would consider a pro-life position.

I'm not wishing death upon woman who want abortions so badly that they'll kill themselves to get it. That's their decision, not mine. My wish is to save the life of the child, and if they're going to such lengths to terminate it, they live with the consequences.

 

[gladiatrix]

I'm not wishing death upon woman who want abortions so badly that they'll kill themselves to get it. That's their decision, not mine. My wish is to save the life of the child, and if they're going to such lengths to terminate it, they live with the consequences.

Now the above is quite illogical. If the woman dies, then how can she possibly "live with the consequences"? I just love that euphemism "live with the consequences" more evidence that anti-choicers are just pro-punishment and NOT pro-life. The irony here is that you haven't "saved" anyone. The pregnancy is history, but so is the woman. What have you accomplished? Oh yeah, a chance to put fear into the heart of anyone considering an abortion (this could happen to you too, beware the coat-hanger!).

 

[livingproofGM]

Now the above is quite illogical. If the woman dies, then how can she possibly "live with the consequences"? I just love that euphemism "live with the consequences" more evidence that anti-choicers are just pro-punishment and NOT pro-life. The irony here is that you haven't "saved" anyone. The pregnancy is history, but so is the woman. What have you accomplished? Oh yeah, a chance to put fear into the heart of anyone considering an abortion (this could happen to you too, beware the coat-hanger!).

Some woman live after an illegal abortion. Why do you consider a child "punishment"?

 

[gladiatrix]

Some woman live after an illegal abortion.

Yes, they do and from your posts on this forum, it looks like you have a real problem with that unless they "suffer".

Why do you consider a child "punishment"?

Yet another loaded, therefore, dishonest question.... I never referred to any child as a punishment. IOW, that "child" doesn't just "materialize" out of thin air,a woman has to be forced to host a pregnancy for nine months til embryo/fetus actually becomes a "child" (a person...not one for +6months).

It's not me who refers to enduring a pregnancy as "suffering the consequences" , but antichoicers like you. I have also heard anti-choicers claim that a pregnancy should also be a badge of SHAME for the woman, sort of a nine-month "Scarlet Letter" (she needs to be SHAMED, suffer emotionally/mentally as well a physically, by toting about this "public admission" of having done "the nasty"). Nothing like the awesome feeling of power and control, this being able to force someone to give birth against their will as a punishment for having sex you don't approve of and/or too guilt-ridden to be able to enjoy yourself and that is what your movement is really about IMO...power, control, punishment. Concern for the "child" is simply the bogus flag anti-choicers fly to obtain this power.

 

[livingproofGM]

Yes, they do and from your posts on this forum, it looks like you have a real problem with that unless they "suffer".

Where did I say that a woman who has had an illegal abortion must "suffer"? Sure, she'll live with the consequences, but God is merciful. No one deserves to suffer, but when you murder something, usually you feel it's effects.

Yet another loaded, therefore, dishonest question.... I never referred to any child as a punishment. IOW, that "child" doesn't just "materialize" out of thin air,a woman has to be forced to host a pregnancy for nine months til embryo/fetus actually becomes a "child" (a person...not one for +6months).

Forced? What about the women who have casual sex and get pregnant? Did the baby force her to do it? Does she have the right to kill a life she willingly brought about?

It's not me who refers to enduring a pregnancy as "suffering the consequences" , but antichoicers like you.

Anti-choice? Murder is never a choice, it's a crime. Woman are free to make choices as they wish, but murder is not one of them. The chose what to do with their bodies, but when it harms someone else, it's never a positive thing.

I have also heard anti-choicers claim that a pregnancy should also be a badge of SHAME for the woman, sort of a nine-month "Scarlet Letter" (she needs to be SHAMED, suffer emotionally/mentally as well a physically, by toting about this "public admission" of having done "the nasty").

Woman who want babies are not ashamed of them. It's those that murder who bring shame upon themselves.

Nothing like the awesome feeling of power and control, this being able to force someone to give birth against their will as a punishment for having sex you don't approve of

The woman opens herself to the option of pregnancy with unprotected sex. Her irresponsibility does not give her the right to end a life.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

Forced? What about the women who have casual sex and get pregnant? Did the baby force her to do it? Does she have the right to kill a life she willingly brought about?

Yes, forced. She was forced circumstances to bear a child she did NOT willingly bring about.

Anti-choice? Murder is never a choice, it's a crime. Woman are free to make choices as they wish, but murder is not one of them. The chose what to do with their bodies, but when it harms someone else, it's never a positive thing.

We are not talking about murder. Despite your attempts to slant the debate by using inaccurate and loaded terms, abortion is not murder. Check a dictionary.

Woman who want babies are not ashamed of them. It's those that murder who bring shame upon themselves.

See above. Abortion is not murder.

The woman opens herself to the option of pregnancy with unprotected sex. Her irresponsibility does not give her the right to end a life.

Yes, it does.

 

[livingproofGM]

Yes, forced. She was forced circumstances to bear a child she did NOT willingly bring about.

I said women who have unprotected sex, willingly taking part. If you willingly have unprotected sex, there is a HUGE chance that you will get pregnant, and that's due to your own neglegence. You've left yourself open to the possibitlity,a nd as an adult, you are called to accept it.

We are not talking about murder. Despite your attempts to slant the debate by using inaccurate and loaded terms, abortion is not murder. Check a dictionary.

Again, here's what my dictionary tells me:

murder:
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

You don't need to have hate and contempt in order to be guilty of murder. It's the killing of a human being.

abortion:

Termination of pregnancy and expulsion of an embryo or of a fetus that is incapable of survival.

Your "it's not murder" theory would only make sense if the fetus was not a human.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

I said women who have unprotected sex, willingly taking part. If you willingly have unprotected sex, there is a HUGE chance that you will get pregnant, and that's due to your own neglegence. You've left yourself open to the possibitlity,a nd as an adult, you are called to accept it.

Women who choose to abort do accept it. They deal with it by aborting it.

Again, here's what my dictionary tells me:

murder:
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

You don't need to have hate and contempt in order to be guilty of murder. It's the killing of a human being.

abortion:

Termination of pregnancy and expulsion of an embryo or of a fetus that is incapable of survival.

Your "it's not murder" theory would only make sense if the fetus was not a human.

Guess again. You conveniently overlook the word 'unlawful'. It is not murder precisely because it is not unlawful.

 

[livingproofGM]

Women who choose to abort do accept it. They deal with it by aborting it.

And that's your definition of a responsible mother? One who would kill her child?

Guess again. You conveniently overlook the word 'unlawful'. It is not murder precisely because it is not unlawful.

It is not unlawful to kill the baby because society looks upon an unborn "fetus" as a non-human, which is quite humerous.

Human:

A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens.

Person:

The living body of a human
A living human.
An individual of specified character: a person of importance.

All five of my Mom's kids were important to her. Just because the living child cannot make decisions on their own does not make them any less alive.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

And that's your definition of a responsible mother? One who would kill her child?

Not at issue. By aborting it she's making the decision NOT to be the mother of a child.

It is not unlawful to kill the baby because society looks upon an unborn "fetus" as a non-human, which is quite humerous.

Irrelevant. The fact is that it is not unlawful; why it is not unlawful is beside the point. It is not unlawful and, therefore, not murder.

All five of my Mom's kids were important to her. Just because the living child cannot make decisions on their own does not make them any less alive.

That's nice.

 

[Sycophant]

I said women who have unprotected sex, willingly taking part. If you willingly have unprotected sex, there is a HUGE chance that you will get pregnant, and that's due to your own neglegence. You've left yourself open to the possibitlity,a nd as an adult, you are called to accept it.

And people who use protection but get pregnant anyway?

 

[livingproofGM]

And people who use protection but get pregnant anyway?

Have no right to end a life either way.

 

[livingproofGM]

Not at issue. By aborting it she's making the decision NOT to be the mother of a child.

She becomes a mother at the moment of conception. There is life in the womb which she is responsible for.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

Have no right to end a life either way.

False again. They DO have the legal right. Whether or not they have the moral right is precisely what is in dispute.

 

[Electric Sceptic]

She becomes a mother at the moment of conception. There is life in the womb which she is responsible for.

Which does not make her a mother. Mothers have children; a fetus is not a child. Pregnant women are mothers to be, not mothers (unless, of course, they already have children).

 

[livingproofGM]

False again. They DO have the legal right. Whether or not they have the moral right is precisely what is in dispute.

That's not the issue. The law is the law. Is the fetus a human and alive? Then it is murder. Society tries to say that a fetus is not a human....What is it? A blob of cells and irrelevant DNA? How does it grow?

 

[Electric Sceptic]

That's not the issue. The law is the law. Is the fetus a human and alive? Then it is murder. Society tries to say that a fetus is not a human....What is it? A blob of cells and irrelevant DNA? How does it grow?

It is precisely the issue. You claimed they had no right; I correct you by pointing out that they DO have a right - the legal right.

Yet again, it is not murder. We have gone over this. Murder is the UNLAWFUL killing....abortion is not unlawful.

 

[Sycophant]

That's not the issue. The law is the law. Is the fetus a human and alive? Then it is murder. Society tries to say that a fetus is not a human....What is it? A blob of cells and irrelevant DNA? How does it grow?

Cancer is a blob of cells, it grows, noone thinks it is life.

 

[gwenmead]

One thing that I have tended to note in most anti-abortion arguments is a great deal of yelling about the life of a fetus/baby while it's in utero - but very little concern at all about the quality of that child's life after it's born. It almost seems like a blind spot: the pro-choice position certainly can't deny pregnancy, can't deny the consequences of it (that is, a baby), and can't deny having to face a decision about ending that pregnancy, for whatever reason, regardless. Anti-abortion arguments seem to stop at birth.

I doubt that anyone here wishes to see any child live a life of poverty, shame, humiliation, abuse, or any other life full of suffering. So I have a question, specifically for those of the pro-life position (though anyone is welcome to answer):

What, exactly, are you doing in your life to ensure that all children born live safe, healthy lives?

What, exactly, are you doing in your life to ensure that the value you so zealously place on life itself extends past conception and pregnancy, past birth and to the end of a person's life?

I bring this up because there is a party here which I think gets lost in the abortion argument overall: actual born, living children. If you are going to insist that every child conceived is going to be born, what are you doing to ensure that their life is a good one?

 

[livingproofGM]

Cancer is a blob of cells, it grows, noone thinks it is life.

That didn't answer my question. A cancer doesn't kick and move or have hands. Is a baby just a blob?