Stop the Steal

[Valletta]

Making it as easy as possible for the maximum number of people to vote in an election is generally accepted to be a good thing. For whatever reason, and rightly or wrongly, some elements of the Republican Party perceive this as a threat.

As an independent I can say I have no doubt it is generally accepted to those who want to cheat. We need fair elections, that means every qualified citizen who can physically make it to the polls should vote in-person and be properly identified. Within ten days of an elections copies of all ballots should be made public. It should be a felony to attack or hinder a verified election observer. The chain of custody of ballots should not be broken. Overhead cameras should record all counting.

 

[Valletta]

That the additional votes for Trump and Tillis were fraudulent. There is as much evidence of that as there is of fraudulent votes for Cooper. Not to mention that the most recent case of voter fraud in NC which I am aware of was carried out by Republicans.

The intent of those passing the laws was not proved, it is simply allegations

Yes. Post 96. It is the one where I mention that I keep posting the same link over and over and over each time this subject comes up, only to be met with posts implying there's no evidence of the GOP actively working to suppress minority votes.

It is allegation after allegation, the old "race card" put out by the Democrats, the party with a history of racism.

 

[Tom 1]

As an independent I can say I have no doubt it is generally accepted to those who want to cheat. We need fair elections, that means every qualified citizen who can physically make it to the polls should vote in-person and be properly identified. Within ten days of an elections copies of all ballots should be made public. It should be a felony to attack or hinder a verified election observer. The chain of custody of ballots should not be broken. Overhead cameras should record all counting.

The only actual infraction in the last election over there I’ve seen any actual proof of is a postie who threw away a few votes for a democrat candidate, in a fit of whatever it is that is deluding half of the population. Please provide one piece of actual evidence that links anything you have said with some actual thing that has some relevance in the real world. Nb people saying stuff and vague notions about election security are not evidence, please provide some actual concrete thing that can be verified.

 

[Albion]

Here are some of the many in 2020 and other recent years. Knock yourself out!

Database Swells to 1,285 Proven Cases of Voter Fraud in America | The Heritage Foundation

AG Paxton: San Antonio Election Fraudster Arrested for Widespread Vote Harvesting and Fraud | Office of the Attorney General (texasattorneygeneral.gov)

In 2020, Vote Fraud Claims Were Not 'Baseless' | Newsmax.com

 

[Tom 1]

Here are some of the many in 2020 and other recent years. Knock yourself out!

Database Swells to 1,285 Proven Cases of Voter Fraud in America | The Heritage Foundation

AG Paxton: San Antonio Election Fraudster Arrested for Widespread Vote Harvesting and Fraud | Office of the Attorney General (texasattorneygeneral.gov)

In 2020, Vote Fraud Claims Were Not 'Baseless' | Newsmax.com

Where in either of those articles is there a single proven instance of voter fraud changing the outcome of anything? More to the point, where is there any evidence that the last election was in any way influenced by ‘illegal votes’? The WH issued a list of actual cases of election fraud going back a number of years, none of it demonstrated anything like a justification of the wild claims of ‘massive fraud’, and neither do the two sites linked to. Show me one single case that you can provide evidence for an actual case of an actual fraudulent vote. There must be at least one out there. While it seems odd that it needs to be said, a page full of allusions and insinuations to what turn out to be further reams of dishonesty is not evidence. That is an objective reality, not a matter of opinion.

 

[Tom 1]

Here are some of the many in 2020 and other recent years. Knock yourself out!

Database Swells to 1,285 Proven Cases of Voter Fraud in America | The Heritage Foundation

AG Paxton: San Antonio Election Fraudster Arrested for Widespread Vote Harvesting and Fraud | Office of the Attorney General (texasattorneygeneral.gov)

In 2020, Vote Fraud Claims Were Not 'Baseless' | Newsmax.com

Here’s one to get you started - a woman accused of fraud involving democrat and republican ballots back in 2019: Madera County woman charged with 12 counts of felony voter fraud
Perhaps you can use that to build your case for massive voter fraud, and demonstrate why the safeguards that led to her being caught are somehow ineffective?

 

[Tom 1]

Here are some of the many in 2020 and other recent years. Knock yourself out!

Database Swells to 1,285 Proven Cases of Voter Fraud in America | The Heritage Foundation

AG Paxton: San Antonio Election Fraudster Arrested for Widespread Vote Harvesting and Fraud | Office of the Attorney General (texasattorneygeneral.gov)

In 2020, Vote Fraud Claims Were Not 'Baseless' | Newsmax.com

Did you read any of those? Look at this:

He had proof of nearly 90,000 fraudulent or improper votes that were cast, including instances where:

• More than 42,000 people voted multiple times.
• At least 1,500 people listed as "dead" voted.
• More than 19,000 non-residents voted.
• In excess of 8,000 people cast mail-in votes from non-existent addresses.
• Over 15,000 votes were cast from commercial or vacant addresses.
• Nearly 4,000 non-citizens voted.

Considering Biden took Nevada by 33,596 votes, these allegations are serious.

I mean can you see that? He had proof...oh wait no he didn’t. What evidence can you provide to give any credence to anything in the NewsMax article that demonstrates any cases of actual fraud for which there is actual evidence?

 

[Valletta]

The only actual infraction in the last election over there I’ve seen any actual proof of is a postie who threw away a few votes for a democrat candidate, in a fit of whatever it is that is deluding half of the population. Please provide one piece of actual evidence that links anything you have said with some actual thing that has some relevance in the real world. Nb people saying stuff and vague notions about election security are not evidence, please provide some actual concrete thing that can be verified.

LOW. There are over a thousand sworn affidavits detailing violations of law and wrongdoing. There also is no question that state officials violated the laws of their respective states. Saying there are none of few infractions is like saying Joe Biden never told a lie. Are you in Romania?

 

[Arcangl86]

LOW. There are over a thousand sworn affidavits detailing violations of law and wrongdoing. There also is no question that state officials violated the laws of their respective states. Saying there are none of few infractions is like saying Joe Biden never told a lie. Are you in Romania?

The courts don't seem to agree with you that the state officials violated the laws of their respective states.

 

[Tom 1]

LOW. There are over a thousand sworn affidavits detailing violations of law and wrongdoing. There also is no question that state officials violated the laws of their respective states. Saying there are none of few infractions is like saying Joe Biden never told a lie. Are you in Romania?

I’m beginning to think you don’t understand what the word evidence means. Please provide some. Pick an actual thing that actually happened and use evidence to demonstrate that it is actually what you imagine it to be. Your vague notions are not evidence, I’m just pointing that out in case you have mistakenly taken the word evidence to mean saying stuff you think. If you went to MacDonalds for a burger, paid your money and were handed an empty paper bag, would you be happy? No, you wouldn’t. Think of me as a customer. I’m asking you to give me some evidence and you keep giving me empty notions.

 

[Albion]

Where in either of those articles is there a single proven instance of voter fraud changing the outcome of anything?

There were a number of cases of people being convicted of breaking the law by engaging in vote fraud! That's proof. And if that doesn't count with you, we're wasting our time here. In addition, you asked for 'evidence,' of which there is plenty. (see below) Then, you changed that to 'proof' when you were given a lot of evidence.

Please provide one piece of actual evidence that links anything you have said with some actual thing that has some relevance in the real world. No people saying stuff and vague notions

 

[Tom 1]

There were a number of cases of people being convicted of breaking the law by engaging in vote fraud! That's proof. And if that doesn't count with you, we're wasting our time here. In addition, you asked for 'evidence,' of which there is plenty. (see below) Then, you changed that to 'proof' when you were given a lot of evidence.

Nothing you have offered provides any evidence of what you are claiming - unless that has changed at some point from the last election was in some way influenced by voter fraud to a claim that isolated incidents of fraud have happened in the past? Which is it? If your claim is that there are occasional incidents of attempted voter fraud involving small numbers of votes, then sure, of course there are, as I said the WH issued a list of these. None of them however support in any fashion the claims of massive, widespread fraud. The sites you quoted do not provide an accurate, honest, sincere evaluation of what scarce ‘evidence’ there actually is. If you disagree, please pick one of the instances you mentioned and we can look at in detail to evaluate what was involved and whether or not it goes any way towards something that might be considered evidence/proof/whatever word you prefer of any fraud having any influence on the last election.

 

[Albion]

Nothing you have offered provides any evidence of what you are claiming...

Sorry, but you wanted evidence and you were given evidence. Then you pretended that you'd wanted proof instead of evidence, but you had been referred to proof as well as evidence. And it wasn't just "people saying stuff and vague notions about election security" which you warned against using (and I wouldn't have used anyway).

So that particular aspect of the matter is settled. Now you can move on to something else if you so choose.

 

[Tom 1]

Sorry, but you wanted evidence and you were given evidence. Then you pretended that you'd wanted proof instead of evidence, but you had been referred to proof as well as evidence. And it wasn't just "people saying stuff and vague notions about election security" which you warned against using (and I wouldn't have used anyway).

So that particular aspect of the matter is settled. Now you can move on to something else if you so choose.

Not good enough I’m afraid. As you are aware, the question at hand here is not, as you are now implying ‘has there ever been voter fraud?’ but, as in the op, was the last election stolen?

Let’s break it down:

Has there ever been voter fraud? Yes

Have isolated incidents of voter fraud involving small numbers of votes happened in recent years? Yes - as I have mentioned in previous posts, the WH issued a list of these, going back a decade or more - it doesn’t add up to much.

So, to the matter at hand. As you know, the question is whether or not there is any evidence that the previous election was ‘stolen’, that there was massive voter fraud etc. You have not provided any evidence that supports this - do you disagree? Which of the small number of cases involving small numbers of votes from years prior to 2020 do you believe provides this evidence? In short, back to the original point - what evidence can you provide that the outcome of the 2020 election was in any way influenced by voter fraud, what evidence can you provide that there was widespread voter fraud (note - the articles you linked to only provide some - albeit slightly misleading- evidence of incidences of fraud limited to small numbers of votes that had nothing to do with the 2020 election)?

 

[Tom 1]

Sorry, but you wanted evidence and you were given evidence. Then you pretended that you'd wanted proof instead of evidence, but you had been referred to proof as well as evidence. And it wasn't just "people saying stuff and vague notions about election security" which you warned against using (and I wouldn't have used anyway).

So that particular aspect of the matter is settled. Now you can move on to something else if you so choose.

We might be talking at cross purposes here - are you saying that you take the allegations of widespread fraud on newsmax etc to constitute actual evidence of actual fraud? Is that what you mean?

 

[Gene2memE]

Here are some of the many in 2020 and other recent years. Knock yourself out!

Database Swells to 1,285 Proven Cases of Voter Fraud in America | The Heritage Foundation

1285 proven cases of "voter fraud".

Not disclosed:

The database covers the period from 1982 to 2020
The database includes false ballot registration as "voter fraud" (this isn't voter fraud, as it's committed by candidates to get onto the ballot in the first place)
The database includes 'Judicial Findings' and 'Official Findings' as "voter fraud"
From 2010 to 2020, the average number of cases of "voter fraud" found was 32 per year (and obviously lower when you improve the selection criteria as well).

https://www.texasattorneygeneral.go...arrested-widespread-vote-harvesting-and-fraud

In 2020, Vote Fraud Claims Were Not 'Baseless' | Newsmax.com

No one was claiming no voter fraud happened (at least, no-one with any passing familiarity with US elections). What was being said was there was no evidence of widespread or systemic voter fraud, and that claims of such were baseless, unproven, spurious, false and really rather pathetic. Which they continue to be.

 

[NxNW]

LOW. There are over a thousand sworn affidavits detailing violations of law and wrongdoing.

That's not evidence.

 

[Valletta]

That's not evidence.

You are incorrect. A sworn affidavit is evidence. As a matter of fact, in the vast majority of court cases a sworn affidavit is admissible evidence as well.

 

[Valletta]

1285 proven cases of "voter fraud".

Not disclosed:

The database covers the period from 1982 to 2020
The database includes false ballot registration as "voter fraud" (this isn't voter fraud, as it's committed by candidates to get onto the ballot in the first place)
The database includes 'Judicial Findings' and 'Official Findings' as "voter fraud"
From 2010 to 2020, the average number of cases of "voter fraud" found was 32 per year (and obviously lower when you improve the selection criteria as well).


No one was claiming no voter fraud happened (at least, no-one with any passing familiarity with US elections). What was being said was there was no evidence of widespread or systemic voter fraud, and that claims of such were baseless, unproven, spurious, false and really rather pathetic. Which they continue to be.

Don't get the leftist manifesto wrong,"systemic racism" is the correct narrative. The wrongdoing occurred in the swing state elections.

 

[Pommer]

Don't get the leftist manifesto wrong,"systemic racism" is the correct narrative. The wrongdoing occurred in the swing state elections.

I wanna see Texas’ 2020 election audit, you gotta link?