Staying where we are not wanted

[NightEternal]

Most of the Trads here, mods included, do not consider us Adventists, have no respect for any of us or our beliefs, and do not feel we have any standing whatsoever in the SDA church. We are a complete joke to them, a disgrace to the Adventist name, and they would just as soon our whole Prog area be wiped off this forum and us with it.

They don't want us in the church, they certainly don't want us on this forum.

I would like to hear from the other Progs why we as reasonable, sane people, should stay in a discussion forum where we are not wanted.

Because I have never made it a habit to do so. Is there any good reason why I should continue making an exception for this place?

Looking for answers....

 

[sentipente]

As a researcher I understand that there are very few constants in this universe. Intelligence is not a constant. It is a variable. Some are brilliant and some are morons. The internet gives a soapbox to all along the spectrum.

 

[reddogs]

Most of the Trads here, mods included, do not consider us Adventists, have no respect for any of us or our beliefs, and do not feel we have any standing whatsoever in the SDA church. We are a complete joke to them, a disgrace to the Adventist name, and they would just as soon our whole Prog area be wiped off this forum and us with it.

They don't want us in the church, they certainly don't want us on this forum.

I would like to hear from the other Progs why we as reasonable, sane people, should stay in a discussion forum where we are not wanted.

Because I have never made it a habit to do so. Is there any good reason why I should continue making an exception for this place?

Looking for answers....

Everyone is welcomed here, but you have to treat your brother and sister with a little love, and failing that at least stay withing the parameters of the site wide rules. Any site requires a standard, or it would quickly disintegrate into just a battle royal with no reason to come, which would lead to its collapse and closure. The answer is simply to show love to one another and not react to what evil brings......

So the real question is not whether you are Adventist or follow its doctrines or beliefs, but do you have Gods love in you which Christ commands us to share with our brother....

 

[tall73]

Perhaps it is such statements as these that cause Night to think some mods don't want progressives around:

How is it the right of a minority, who does not hold true to the teachings and doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, to prostitute the Seventh-day Adventist Church name by being designated a sub-forum of the SDA Forum?

 

[tall73]

Night, and other progressives, if you want to make a difference then stop discussing it in the prog forum and go here:

http://christianforums.com/t6864947

 

[NightEternal]

Everyone is welcomed here, but you have to treat your brother and sister with a little love, and failing that at least stay withing the parameters of the site wide rules. Any site requires a standard, or it would quickly disintegrate into just a battle royal with no reason to come, which would lead to its collapse and closure. The answer is simply to show love to one another and not react to what evil brings......

So the real question is not whether you are Adventist or follow its doctrines or beliefs, but do you have Gods love in you which Christ commands us to share with our brother....

No Red, we are not welcome here. And this constant reference people make to my 'posting style' is nothing but a smoke-screen that detracts from the real issue at hand, which is indeed that we are not considered Adventists.

Your own words confirm this Red. From the thread Tall linked to:

The Adventist who follow the church beliefs have been pegged as 'Traditionalist' but they are following what is the doctrines and fundmental beliefs of the church. Others have campaign to have themselves classed as a group and thus the 'Progressive' label, but in my view it means nothing and in reality they have no standing as a "Adventist" if they do not follow what the church beliefs and doctrines are.

You cannot call yourself a Lutheran or Methodist, if you do not believe in anything that the church holds as truths and doctrines. But, out of love for our brothers and sisters, if they want to call themselves 'Adventist' even with labels, it is the least we can do.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=44551979&postcount=92

Well gee, thanks Red for humoring and patronizing us. But I actually do consider myself a bona-fide Adventist. I can scan my baptismal certificate and post it here for proof if you like.

Newsflash: Progs are a part of the church wether you want to give them a pass or not. We have our own publications (Spectrum, Adventist Today), blogs and websites and we can be found all over Adventism. Not just in Southern California and Australia either.

So while many of you Trads may consider us an insignificant sub-species, the fact is we are in the church, we are strong and we are many. And we are not going anywhere. And you guys can deny all the livelong day that we are a force to be reckoned with all you want, but we will continue to build up our ranks regardless.

The bottom line is that I could have come into this place and posted as sweet as sugar, but if I do not sign off on all 28 fundamentals of the SDA church and pledge allegiance to the prophetess for which it stands, I would still have been discarded into the trash heap.

Granted, it would have taken a little more time and people would have been much more polite about it, but the end result would have been the same.

I don't know what to say Red. I feel like you have been deceptive regarding how you really consider us. The other two I expected this from, but I thought you were a little more reasonable.

But at least we now know how you really feel.

 

[NightEternal]

Originally Posted by thecountrydoc
How is it the right of a minority, who does not hold true to the teachings and doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, to prostitute the Seventh-day Adventist Church name by being designated a sub-forum of the SDA Forum?

Yeah, pretty much not suprised by this one.

Nice. Any of you Progs feel that welcome mat being rolled out yet? Yet is this not what I have been maintaining for the longest time with this particular individual?

The agenda is clear, exactly what I have been saying. Some want to shut this area down and smoke the whole lot of us right out of this forum.

 

[NightEternal]

Night, and other progressives, if you want to make a difference then stop discussing it in the prog forum and go here:

http://christianforums.com/t6864947

Tall, isn't that just a thread for the mods? I don't see anyone else posting on it. Maybe we should verify that before we jump in there and get nailed left and right with reports.

I am just appalled at some of the things being said there. It sent a chill up my spine reading that whole thing. I pretty much knew they had it in for us, but to actually see it in black and white....

Maybe this will finally put to rest the ridiculous notion that the Progs have nothing to worry about and that there couldn't possibly be any agendas against us behind the scenes.

Wake up comrades. The noose is getting tighter as we speak.

I thank God at least Sophia is in there going to bat for us. God bless her. She is taking a beating too. Her leaving the church should NOT be an issue in any of that, but a certain individual seems to constantly want to make it one. I like how she always brings it back to the issue at hand and does not allow attacks against her to derail from the topic under discussion.

If we didn't have her in there clarifying, explaining and calling people on false statements, our little Prog group would surely have been toast long ago.

 

[Sophia7]

Tall, isn't that just a thread for the mods? I don't see anyone else posting on it. Maybe we should verify that before we jump in there and get nailed left and right with reports.

I am just appalled at some of the things being said there. It sent a chill up my spine reading that whole thing. I pretty much knew they had it in for us, but to actually see it in black and white....

Maybe this will finally put to rest the ridiculous notion that the Progs have nothing to worry about and that there couldn't possibly be any agendas against us behind the scenes.

Wake up comrades. The noose is getting tighter as we speak.

I thank God at least Sophia is in there going to bat for us. God bless her. She is taking a beating too. Her leaving the church should NOT be an issue in any of that, but a certain individual seems to constantly want to make it one. I like how she always brings it back to the issue at hand and does not allow attacks against her to derail from the topic under discussion.

If we didn't have her in there clarifying, explaining and calling people on false statements, our little Prog group would surely have been toast long ago.

You can post there. It's in an open staff forum, and we need input from the Progs, too.

 

[reddogs]

No Red, we are not welcome here. And this constant reference people make to my 'posting style' is nothing but a smoke-screen that detracts from the real issue at hand, which is indeed that we are not considered Adventists.

Your own words confrim this Red. From the thread Tall linked to:

The Adventist who follow the church beliefs have been pegged as 'Traditionalist' but they are following what is the doctrines and fundmental beliefs of the church. Others have campaign to have themselves classed as a group and thus the 'Progressive' label, but in my view it means nothing and in reality they have no standing as a "Adventist' if they do not follow what the church beliefs and doctrines are.

You cannot call yourself a Lutheran or Methodist, if you do not believe in anything that the church holds as truths and doctrines. But, out of love for our brothers and sisters, if they want to call themselves 'Adventist' even with labels, it is the least we can do.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=44551979&postcount=92

Well gee, thanks Red for humoring and patronizing us. But I actually do consider myself a bona-fide Adventist. I can scan my baptismal certificate and post it here if you like for proof.

The bottom line is that I could have come into this place and posted as sweet as sugar, but if I do not sign off on all 28 fundamentals of the SDA church and pledge allegiance to the prophetess for which it stands, I would still have been discarded into the trash heap.

Granted, it would have taken a little more time and people would have been much more polite about it, but the end result would have been the same.

I don't know what to say Red. I feel like you have been deceptive regarding how you really consider us. The other two I expected this from, but I thought you were a little more reasonable.

But at least we now know how you really feel.

Night,

Tall and Sophia have their agenda and I'll leave it at that. You know, I dont pull any punches Night, and I say what I believe. Last time I did it, you asked me for a explanation and I did a whole thread to explain it.

Now as for what is a 'Adventist...If you go to get married to a young women, and go through the ceremony and get the marriage certificate, and you can claim its a 'marriage'. But if dont follow your marriage vows, and dont love her, respect her, and look for other women...is it a 'true marriage' other than on paper. No, it is what it is...

Now, what have I always said, its what I said a few posts back, the real question is not whether you are 'Adventist' or follow its doctrines or beliefs, but do you have Gods love in you which Christ commands us to share with our brother....

That is what I believe is what Christ is all about, and labeling Red with whatever 'tag' doesnt change that one iota....

You know I love you bro, through thick and thin.....
Red

 

[tall73]

Tall and Sophia have their agenda and I'll leave it at that.

My agenda in this discussion is for you to stop calling people non-Adventist who ARE Adventist and to stop treating them like dirt and calling it love.

If you really believe progressives are not Adventists then take your belief to the actual church and have Night etc. disfellowshipped. Until then he is an Adventist.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I posted the following there:

I haven't been visited this thread for a while but I was surprised to see this:
Quote:

• The Progressive SDA subforum is mainly for those who do not agree with all 28 Fundamental Beliefs. But the Progressive SDA subforum allows for debate, fellowship, questions and discussion among Seventh-day Adventists, other Christians, and non-Christians. Topics and posts that speak against either group, TSDAs or PSDAs, are not permitted in this sub-forum.

The red highlighted part is completely foreign to the rules that the Progressive Adventist put in place. So where did it come from? Why is an otherwise open forum suddenly restricted and why a restriction that is so subjective. For instance if I was to post a thread critical of a Spectrum or A Firm Foundation magazine article it could be called negative against either TSDA's or PSDA's.

The only Progressive rules were those of the entire CF and they are meant to in no way restrict areas of discussion but to maintain respectful dialog.

I will go back in the thread and see who inserted those restrictions but I will wager it was done by a non Progressive Adventist,

My second post was this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tishri1
I have an idea.....why not use the wording IN the prog subforum...I mean yesyes they wish to have no fenses BUT for their own good and the good of the forum and staff can we add this rule so that the flaming/feud can be done....or at least prevented from continuing in there

then you dont need special issues at all

So this seems to be where it orginated. There is already a no flaming rule why are you wanting to create a fence around an already prohibited activity?

If as you say it is "for their own good" why not add the same statement to the Traditional subforum or the main SDA forum? After all it will be for their good as well wouldn't it? If no Adventist on any Adventist forum is allowed to address any possible divergent view then everyone would be forced to get along, for their own good rather like the heretics were burned at the stake, for their own good.

This was the answer I received to the second post Tishri1:

you are welcome to be apart of the solution here RC but not apart of the problem any more comments like that will be reported

I think it is now safe to say that the problem here is more then just TSDA moderators. There is a problem with the administrators as well. So best not to get to attached to the CF forums.

 

[reddogs]

My agenda in this discussion is for you to stop calling people non-Adventist who ARE Adventist and to stop treating them like dirt and calling it love.

If you really believe progressives are not Adventists then take your belief to the actual church and have Night etc. disfellowshipped. Until then he is an Adventist.

If I wanted to be a 'New York Yankee', I could do like Billy Crystal did the other day and get a 'one day contract' and play one game in the 'Grapefruit League' in Florida. So he is labeled as a 'New York Yankee', but at the end of a day, he doesnt play to help the team, doesnt play defense, or put up hits or RBI's, so he is just a 'New York Yankee' on paper just for his own purpose, whatever that may be...

 

[tall73]

RC was an Adventist before there were 28 fundamentals red. Your analogy fails. The church accepts him. It is you that rejects him.

So why not take your views seriously? Petition your local church board to purge those who don't hold all 28. Do the same at your constituency meeting. Do the same at the GC. If all of these progs are just fooling themselves then you will be doing them a favor.

But until the church disfellowships them they are Adventists, and you are stuck with them.

 

[reddogs]

RC was an Adventist before there were 28 fundamentals red. Your analogy fails. The church accepts him. It is you that rejects him.

So why not take your views seriously? Petition your local church board to purge those who don't hold all 28. Do the same at your constituency meeting. Do the same at the GC. If all of these progs are just fooling themselves then you will be doing them a favor.

But until the church disfellowships them they are Adventists, and you are stuck with them.

It comes from the heart Tall, and on this, you and I will just have agree to disagree.......

 

[tall73]

Christianity is from the heart. Your beliefs are from the heart. Adventist membership is an objective fact, whether you agree with it or not. Adventist membership won't buy you a thing on judgment day. But it is the official way of knowing if someone is Adventist right now. If you want to change that then go to your board and start there.

 

[tall73]

Tall, isn't that just a thread for the mods? I don't see anyone else posting on it. Maybe we should verify that before we jump in there and get nailed left and right with reports.

Tishri said she would welcome our suggestions. So give them. But be to the point and calm.

For you why not run it past me in PM first, haha!

 

[NightEternal]

Here's an interesting post from another SDA forum:

I grew up an SDA and so did my husband. When were young we scraped the table clean of our parents beliefs and one by one we placed the doctrines back on--only after we had studied each one and understood it for ourselves. The result was that we put everything back on within a few weeks except for EGW. We had heard she said this and that all of our lives. We were not convinced she was a prophet so we didn't put her back on the table for five years. I would say people mis-using her words to scare us or judge us when we were young, was blocking us from having an open mind to explore her writings. Then one day, we were traveling near Elmshaven so we stopped because my grandmother who loved EGW's writings, would be devasted if I didn't stop and tour the house. I did it for Grandma. There I met EGW's great granddaughter, who gave me a book called Stories of My Grandmother and reading that book showed us that she was a real person who laughed and made mistakes and loved kids. That book finally convinced us that she was prophet. During the five years that we didn't believe in her, our pastors were awesome! They told us we didn't have to believe in her to be an Adventist and so we stayed.

http://www.heavenlysanctuary.com/forum/viewtopic.php?showtopic=47203

Interesting. It seems the actual situation being played out in the local church setting is quite a bit different from the 'eat it all or leave it all/love it or lump it' propaganda the Trads here try and force down our throats.

Red, some of your OWN CLERGY are saying this to thier membership. My OWN PASTOR made the same statement to me before my baptism. He told me that EGW was NOT a test of membership and she was NOT supposed to be made one. He said all that was required was that I acknowledge the SDA church believes in the spiritual gifts, prophecy included. I did NOT have to profess allegiance to belief in her prophetic status either before or during the ceremony. Perhaps he left that part out of the vows deliberately, but I never heard it. His position was to just let me search out the issue for myself and come to my own conclusions, just like the woman in the above quote.

 

[annie1speed]

Very good points Tall and Night. I didn't see any love or concern for souls in Red's or Doc's posts above. It is obvious that there is some talk coming out of both sides of someone's mouth. And the natives seemed so friendly in the beginning.

The suggestion in #11 sounds good to me. Night may be in danger of being rolled out of this forum, but I doubt he's in danger of being kicked out of his church.

As for Night's posting style, no he doesn't have to be as prickly and in your face as he is, but that doesn't remove the merit from his comments.

I hate to say it but it may be time for some folks to shake the dust off their feet and move on. If anyone wants to e-mail me I have an idea for a destination. (And it is not CARM).

 

[NightEternal]

Tishri said she would welcome our suggestions. So give them. But be to the point and calm.

For you why not run it past me in PM first, haha!

Tall my editor!

I may jump in there soon. Right now, I am in the process of fencing off about seven spite-reports that are pending against me. I may not even be around long enough to get really involved in that thread.