Stay at Home works very well...for the areas people really keep distance

pitabread

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Both of the facts you state there have not been established at all. It's not been proven more infectious or deadly. Flu killed 3 times as many people in the past 6 months as has covid-19 in the past 5 months. It has a lot of catching up do do.

We think that 1 milion people have gotten CV in the past 5 months. 45-90 million people got the flu and over 22 thousand died and it's still killing people.

Flu dwarfs covid-19 in terms of virulence. It isn't even close. 45 to 90 times greater in fact.

We've already had this discussion including explaining why your comparison of raw numbers of deaths for COVID-19 versus the flu is a completely misleading use of the data.

I don't see a reason to rehash this; you can go through our prior discussions. (You also might want to have a look at this thread: King County, WA COVID 19 now killed over 6 times as many as flu)

I also find it weird that you claim that the deadly and infectious nature of COVID-19 isn't established (relative to the flu), but at the same time speculating that it's previously infected lots of people in years' past. Something for which there is AFAIK zero data to even begin supporting that (unlike the data on the infection rate and mortality of COVID-19).

Anyway, you can keep pretending this isn't as bad as the flu. I'm done with our discussion in that regard.
 
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Tanj

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Both of the facts you state there have not been established at all. It's not been proven more infectious or deadly. Flu killed 3 times as many people in the past 6 months as has covid-19 in the past 5 months. It has a lot of catching up do do.

We think that 1 milion people have gotten CV in the past 5 months. 45-90 million people got the flu and over 22 thousand died and it's still killing people.

Flu dwarfs covid-19 in terms of virulence. It isn't even close. 45 to 90 times greater in fact.

That is such a silly way of looking at things. flu kills ~ 200 people/day in the US in a severe year. COVID19 is already killing 5x as many and it's only just getting started. It's far more deadly, and at least as infectious, as influenza. 5 months ago there was 1 case of COVID19. Today there's well over 1 million.

Flu is like the common cold versus COVID19 in terms of virulence. It isn't even close. COVID19, if you take hospitalisation rates and stays into account several 100x more dangerous than flu.
 
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Al Touthentop

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That is such a silly way of looking at things. flu kills ~ 200 people/day in the US in a severe year. COVID19 is already killing 5x as many and it's only just getting started. It's far more deadly, and at least as infectious, as influenza. 5 months ago there was 1 case of COVID19. Today there's well over 1 million.

And 6 months ago there wasn't one case of flu and since, there have been 45-90 million cases of flu. Sorry, but the numbers do not support your case.
Flu is like the common cold versus COVID19 in terms of virulence. It isn't even close. COVID19, if you take hospitalisation rates and stays into account several 100x more dangerous than flu.

If it were even close, we'd have tens of millions of covid cases. Instead it's a TINY fraction of flu, 1/45-1/90. Cut it out already.

What is 200 x 180? It's 36,000. In a really bad flu year that number can be doubled. We're talking in the US alone. In 5 months in the US, n-covid has killed 8700 assuming that number is even accurate. (58 a day, nowhere near 200 a day - 1/3 as many in fact).

Again, the numbers do not at all support your claims.
 
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Tanj

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And 6 months ago there wasn't one case of flu

6 months ago there were millions of cases of flu and it was killing ~140 Americans a day.

If it were even close, we'd have tens of millions of covid cases. Instead it's a TINY fraction of flu, 1/45-1/90. Cut it out already.

We'll be there in a week.

What is 200 x 180? It's 36,000. In a really bad flu year that number can be doubled. We're talking in the US alone. In 5 months in the US, n-covid has killed 8700 assuming that number is even accurate. (58 a day, nowhere near 200 a day - 1/3 as many in fact).

Again, the numbers do not at all support your claims.

What are you talking about? The US reported 1300+ COVID19 deaths yesterday. That's a matter of public health record. "assuming it's even accurate". Classic. Let me guess, as this gets worse and worse, you'll keep believing the flu numbers whilst doubting the COVID19 numbers despite both being collected by the same agencies with similar methodology.

I gotta ask, why are you so keen on lying to yourself about this outbreak?
 
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Al Touthentop

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6 months ago there were millions of cases of flu and it was killing ~140 Americans a day.

Six months ago was the beginning of Flu season. Since then 22k people have died from flu. It was technically inaccurate to say there was zero 6 months ago, I was just setting the beginning of the time line for comparison.

We'll be there in a week.

So your prediction is by next week there will have been 22k covid deaths? So that would mean an average of 2000 per day for the next 7 days? Interesting.

What are you talking about? The US reported 1300+ COVID19 deaths yesterday. That's a matter of public health record.

I'm putting it in the same terms you put it. Averaged out over the past 5 months, it's 58 per day. Whereas flu has averaged ~200 a day. I started based on the number you posted. It's actually this year about 122 a day for the past 6 months. So covid is half that daily average right now. That doesn't mean that there weren't days that flu killed 1300 or more in one day. It also doesn't mean that covid will remain at that 58 per day average. But it still has a great deal of catching up to do.


"assuming it's even accurate". Classic. Let me guess, as this gets worse and worse, you'll keep believing the flu numbers whilst doubting the COVID19 numbers despite both being collected by the same agencies with similar methodology.

Flu numbers could be inaccurate. They are based on estimates which are extrapolated from a baseline of tested cases after all. But we know that Italy over-reported its covid deaths (and still is probably doing that now) by as much as 88%. Also, many so-called confirmed cases world wide are actually "presumed" cases. Many of those could be wrong.

Why have so many coronavirus patients died in Italy?

On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three,” he says.

I gotta ask, why are you so keen on lying to yourself about this outbreak?

I am reading what health professionals are actually saying about it, not lying to myself. I also know that the CDC inflated the H1N1 numbers by as much as 80% in 2009. That was proven by FOIA requests to state health agencies which delivered their testing data. It's well within the realm of possibility that they are getting it wrong now. I'm not suggesting anything other than they are known to get it wrong. Why they do that is not even anything I want to discuss. I'll chalk it up to incompetence and leave it at that.

But these are two different issues. On one hand, the numbers do not show CV as being more of an impact (yet) than the flu in terms of personal health. Economically it's been an unmitigated disaster. 6 million so far have been put out of work. That isn't covid's fault but politician's reaction to it.

On the other hand we also know for certain that we don't have any numbers on "non-confirmed" cases which would give us some comparison that was more appropriate to flu. We have no reliable estimates or guesses as to the number of people who have gotten CV and never even went to a hospital. It could be a huge number. The estimates for flu cases run orders of magnitude higher than the number of confirmed (tested) cases every year. That would bring the morbidity calculation for covid, if there are as many unreported cases, well below 1 percent. There are already countries now that are below 1% and those coincidentally are the ones performing more tests.
 
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Tanj

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Six months ago was the beginning of Flu season.

In your coutnry. In mine it was the end of the flu season. You are aware you are not the only country on the planet, that the southern hemisphere also has countries with humans in them, and that it's winter here when it's summer where you are...please...tell me you at leadt now that.

Since then 22k people have died from flu. It was technically inaccurate to say there was zero 6 months ago, I was just setting the beginning of the time line for comparison.

It was a rubbish comparions regardless of where you set it. 6 months ago there was flu all over the world. There was no COVID19.

So your prediction is by next week there will have been 22k covid deaths? So that would mean an average of 2000 per day for the next 7 days? Interesting.

Well, let's see how it goes, shall we? Until then you wont be hearing from me...and if the official numbers from (jhu or worldometer). are less that 22k, then what you will be hearing from me is an apology.

Until then, stay safe.

There are already countries now that are below 1% and those coincidentally are the ones performing more tests.

I know. Thank your God I live in one of them.
 
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Al Touthentop

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In your coutnry. In mine it was the end of the flu season. You are aware you are not the only country on the planet, that the southern hemisphere also has countries with humans in them, and that it's winter here when it's summer where you are...please...tell me you at leadt now that.

This is not really fair. I have been quoting US numbers and you have been also. Even the 1300 deaths you said were reported were not worldwide but in the US alone. I didn't pay any attention to your location and I wasn't intentionally trying to exclude other countries. Just compare apples to apples.

It was a rubbish comparions regardless of where you set it. 6 months ago there was flu all over the world. There was no COVID19.

It wasn't rubbish. It was a baseline. If you want to now start including world wide flu numbers, the flu is probably even more obviously dangerous than when only looking at the US.

(For 2017)
CDC Press Releases
According to new estimates published today, between 291,000 and 646,000 people worldwide die from seasonal influenza-related respiratory illnesses each year, higher than a previous estimate of 250,000 to 500,000 and based on a robust, multinational survey

If 2019/2020 are anything like this, worldwide Covid is still 1/10 as bad as the flu in overall deaths (65k). We still have to add the next 6 months of covid deaths eventually. If we take away 6 months then covid is about 1/5th as deadly.

Well, let's see how it goes, shall we? Until then you wont be hearing from me...and if the official numbers from (jhu or worldometer). are less that 22k, then what you will be hearing from me is an apology.

You won't owe me one. I love you brother. I don't intend to berate you. I'll be wrong and you'll be right. I'm not even saying that it won't get more serious than it is. I am just saying that the reaction to it in the US especially is totally inappropriate based on the data we have. We should take South Korea's lead. But we can't because the people who run the show are not actually interested in doing sensible, scientifically-based actions. They're punishing us because of their hubris and ignorance.
 
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pitabread

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I'm putting it in the same terms you put it. Averaged out over the past 5 months, it's 58 per day. Whereas flu has averaged ~200 a day. I started based on the number you posted. It's actually this year about 122 a day for the past 6 months. So covid is half that daily average right now.

This is a complete misuse of statistical averages resulting in yet another misleading comparison.

Have you ever taken a statistics course? :scratch:
 
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tall73

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Six months ago was the beginning of Flu season. Since then 22k people have died from flu. It was technically inaccurate to say there was zero 6 months ago, I was just setting the beginning of the time line for comparison.

To compare the risk you have to look at areas where both are at. Yes, it will take a while for COVID19 to catch up in some areas. Part of that is time to spread, and part of that is the time it takes for cases to resolve, and people to die. However, let's see what happened in King County, WA, where it has been spreading for some time now.

Influenza - King County

Influenza has killed 30 people in the county since September 29, 2019. The data trails slightly, in that they put out the report weekly. This was as of March 28.

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) - King County

COVID19 has been in Washington since February. So in a couple of months it has now killed 200, over six times as many as influenza.

Even if we postulate some over-reporting, that is quite a difference.

This is at the local level, so if you are concerned about inflation by the CDC, that should not be the case here.
 
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Al Touthentop

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Washington was one of the first places for it to show up. It's an awfully small data set though to set the standard.
This is a complete misuse of statistical averages resulting in yet another misleading comparison.

Have you ever taken a statistics course? :scratch:

Nope, I haven't and I'm not interested in a lesson. He and I were probably both doing something "wrong" with numbers.
 
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Subduction Zone

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It's really not. But it would be hard to do and also save face.
There is a two week incubation period where people are still contagious. That means that quarantining the healthy is the same as locking the barn door after the horses have run off. That sick person was rather unlikely to infect many others after he fell ill. The damage was done before that.
 
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Subduction Zone

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That is such a silly way of looking at things. flu kills ~ 200 people/day in the US in a severe year. COVID19 is already killing 5x as many and it's only just getting started. It's far more deadly, and at least as infectious, as influenza. 5 months ago there was 1 case of COVID19. Today there's well over 1 million.

Flu is like the common cold versus COVID19 in terms of virulence. It isn't even close. COVID19, if you take hospitalisation rates and stays into account several 100x more dangerous than flu.
Actually about twice as infections as the flu. And when dealing with exponential growth that gives it a huge head start.

And yes, far more deadly (we do not have any natural resistance to it since it is the first virus of this sort to get into the human population) and twice as contagious as flu. A truly frightening combination.
 
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Al Touthentop

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There is a two week incubation period where people are still contagious. That means that quarantining the healthy is the same as locking the barn door after the horses have run off. That sick person was rather unlikely to infect many others after he fell ill. The damage was done before that.

It's weird then why quarantining the sick and not the healthy has been the practice considered most effective for the past few hundred years. We didn't do that for smallpox or polio and we don't do it for flu or colds or measles, mumps, chicken pox.....blah blah blah.
 
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Subduction Zone

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It's weird then why quarantining the sick and not the healthy has been the practice considered most effective for the past few hundred years. We didn't do that for smallpox or polio and we don't do it for flu or colds or measles, mumps, chicken pox.....blah blah blah.
It works with diseases with short incubation periods. It does not work with diseases with long incubation periods. Covid-19 has a good two week incubation period. What works for one disease will not work for all of them.

By the way, the flu has only a two or three day incubation period. It is much easier to be careful for two or three days if you saw someone that was sick. It is all but impossible to be careful for two weeks. And that is assuming that you knew that you saw someone that was sick. You could have seen someone, that saw someone, that saw someone, and in none of them have the symptoms set in yet.

That is why social distancing is the answer. Separation before one catches the disease is the only way to fight it right now.
 
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tall73

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Washington was one of the first places for it to show up. It's an awfully small data set though to set the standard.

Exactly, it was one of the first places, so the impact is the most clear there, as cases have had time to resolve.

And if you are going to call into question the national numbers, because of the CDC, then how do you object to local numbers?

Now, have you any explanation for why it has killed over six times as many people as influenza, while being present in the area four months less?
 
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tall73

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It's an awfully small data set though to set the standard.

Previously we looked only at King County in the state of Washington. But the state numbers show COVID has killed more in the entire state as well.

https://www.doh.wa.gov/Emergencies/Coronavirus

310 have died from Covid.

https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/5100/420-100-FluUpdate.pdf

91 have died from influenza:

Even though COVID19 is not as widespread as the flu in the state of Washington, it has killed more than three times the amount as influenza in four months less time.

Washington has a population of 7.5 million, so it is not exactly a small sample.
 
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