statuettes.... Error?!?

[namericanboy]

Because for corporate use we limit veneration to those who the Church recognizes as finishing the race and with Christ. There is no prohibition of private veneration of relatives and loved ones. In fact most of us do this when we place flowers and photos and letters and poems at the relics (gravesite) of our loved ones. Are the placing of objects at war memorials, and prayers, often while kneeling, idolatry ?

I don't equate paying last repsects with contacting one who has passed on and praying to them and asking them to ask Jesus something for you.. I just don't see the need for it when we have a direct line to God..

 

[FrauleinElsa]

What proof, that we adore Saints, above God ?

You bear false witness if that is your point !

I don't wish to put a big bull's eye on my forehead, but I must say something. People who bear fruit don't attack each other or accuse each other wrongly. Please remember 1 Corinthians 13.

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

Please remember to speak to each other in the love that God would want us to. In the end, it's not important who is right and who is wrong. What matters, is if we are born again, have God's spirit in us and obey His word.

Peace, love and frienship,
Elsa

 

[FrauleinElsa]

I would just like to say along those lines that if you have not love, you have nothing.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I would just like to say along those lines that if you have not love, you have nothing.

We are doing this in the Spirit of Love.
This is after all a theology debating board and if you think it is bad here, check out the GA board sometime.

 

[FrauleinElsa]

No offense but I hear more arguing than debating. Just my take on it.

 

[thereselittleflower]

You keep on removing verses that are against your view, thereseslittleflower. These people may be harsh but they have to honour God.

God says it

Well . . . we have one of two situations that have developed here . .

Either

1) Tyndale admits that imges in and of themselves represent no problem when it comes to religious use, and that giving verneration/respect and bowing down to them is not a problem in and of itelf​

OR

2) He is continuing to raise strawman arguments about verses that are not germaine to the point I am making about IMAGES.​

.

 

[thereselittleflower]

And some attacking the protestant faith as well.

who has attacked the faith of protestants regarding the use of images? This is about images . . . why do some protestants attack our religious use of statues when the religious use of images is actually condoned and approved by God in the OT?

Nonsensical if you ask me . .

I do not see these "statues" as "God" nor even a "god".

This isn't "Neptune" ladies and gentlemen, nor Lord Xenu.

Our point exactly.


.

 

[lionroar0]

We are doing this in the Spirit of Love.
This is after all a theology debating board and if you think it is bad here, check out the GA board sometime.

Or other forums.

Peace

 

[Uphill Battle]

All of you need to stop!

This thread had nothing to do with statues being used in prayer, or in the church.

My OP was about erroneous images specific to some statuettes I saw. Not a broad sweeping condemnation of statues!

For heavens sake, there are statues of war heros, why not of dead saints? Statues of presidents, why not of dead saints?

Seriously.

I know that many of my fellow protestants take a dim view on "graven images" but the RCC and EO are correct.... They would have to be worshipped as Gods to be idols.

The practice of praying to saints is erroneous, in my own opinion, but that has nothing to do with the statues either.

Can we PLEASE drop the sniping and get back on topic!

BTW, the Peter Jupiter thing............. yikes. even if they DO have some similarities, it would have far more to do with the hellenistic style of carving, than with intended similarity. That one's crazy!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

We are doing this in the Spirit of Love.
This is after all a theology debating board and if you think it is bad here, check out the GA board sometime.

Or other forums.

Peace

Yepperz. Every now and then I go "harass" the Atheists, Muslims and Jews. Peace.

 

[Gwenyfur]

A graven image is an idol . . these are physical objects that are believed by those who use them to be actual gods themselves . .

I don't see Catholics and Anglicans bowing down to objects they believe to be actually gods . . . .

If the object is not actually a god, then it is not an idol, also known as graven image.



.

And for his error in allowing graven images he was the last ruler of the combined Kingdome of Israel...during his son's reign, the nation was split into 2...Israel (10 tribes) adn Judah (Benjamin and Judah)

Why? punishment for the corruption of his people, temple and of His people

 

[Gwenyfur]

Well, then you have a problem as your position contradicts actual law and practice in the ancient Jewish religion . . for they bowed down to the Ark, which is a graven image according to the definitions being bantered about by some protestants in this thread .. .

They bowed down to the brazen serpent . . looking to it even for their salvation from the bites of the firey serpents . . .


.

6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.


7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
10And the children of Israel set forward, and pitched in Oboth.

Let's look at that in context....
I don't see anyone referred to as "worshipping" or "bowing" or doing "revernce" to the brass serpent...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Let's look at that in context....
I don't see anyone referred to as "worshipping" or "bowing" or doing "revernce" to the brass serpent...

I suppose as long as they do not bow down to it

Leviticus 26:1 `Ye do not make to yourselves idols; and graven image or standing image ye do not set up to yourselves; and a stone of imagery ye do not put in your land, to bow yourselves to it; for I [am] Jehovah your God.

 

[Gwenyfur]

You may be straight up with you but so are we being straight up with you.. God said don't do it.. We take Gods word seriously.. For we are called to be sons of GOD through Christ.. We take His word as the stand for which we uphold the truth.. Jesus asked.. Why do you call me Lord and do not the things I say... This is an important saying.. IF we are to make Christ our Lord we are to adhere to what He says in His word.

 

[Gwenyfur]

but what about all the non Catholics who do?

and do you think of any one you know who has died?

have you had anyone who you were really close to, die?

Wow...that's like me going out on the floor and asking one of my techs "what was tech2 thinking when he did this?"

does tech1 know? does tech1 read minds?

relax ... take a deep breath ... have a cuppa cocoa and find some peace

Shalom.

 

[thereselittleflower]

All of you need to stop!

This thread had nothing to do with statues being used in prayer, or in the church.

My OP was about erroneous images specific to some statuettes I saw. Not a broad sweeping condemnation of statues!

For heavens sake, there are statues of war heros, why not of dead saints? Statues of presidents, why not of dead saints?

Seriously.

I know that many of my fellow protestants take a dim view on "graven images" but the RCC and EO are correct.... They would have to be worshipped as Gods to be idols.

The practice of praying to saints is erroneous, in my own opinion, but that has nothing to do with the statues either.

Can we PLEASE drop the sniping and get back on topic!

BTW, the Peter Jupiter thing............. yikes. even if they DO have some similarities, it would have far more to do with the hellenistic style of carving, than with intended similarity. That one's crazy!

Thank you!


.

 

[thereselittleflower]

And for his error in allowing graven images he was the last ruler of the combined Kingdome of Israel...during his son's reign, the nation was split into 2...Israel (10 tribes) adn Judah (Benjamin and Judah)

Why? punishment for the corruption of his people, temple and of His people

I can't believe my proverbial ears!

God HONORED a Temple full of images! God's glory descended on a Temple full of images!

And you want us to believe that God changed His mind because of the images in the Temple that God so hallowed Himself?




That is beyond absurd!


.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Let's look at that in context....
I don't see anyone referred to as "worshipping" or "bowing" or doing "revernce" to the brass serpent...

The brazen serpent was one of the images in the Temple God so honored with His glory and Hallowed for Himself . . . and we see that the Jews venerated/reverenced and bowed down towards the temple which included all that was in it ..

.

 

[Gwenyfur]

I can't believe my proverbial ears!

God HONORED a Temple full of images! God's glory descended on a Temple full of images!

And you want us to believe that God changed His mind because of the images in the Temple that God so hallowed Himself?




That is beyond absurd!


.

Read of Solomon's reign...he allowed his foreign wives to have their gods as well...

not absurd...history

 

[Gwenyfur]

The brazen serpent was one of the images in the Temple God so honored with His glory and Hallowed for Himself . . . and we see that the Jews venerated/reverenced and bowed down towards the temple which included all that was in it ..

.

they didn't bow *to* the Temple....

they bowed to G-d who's glory resided *in* the temple...

HUGE difference