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statuettes.... Error?!?

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thereselittleflower

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Hi. That isn't what I was asking about. How are ones picked to have an Icon made of:)

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
Hi. So a saint has to die first before you genuflect to honor them? How is one judged a saint to get this "honor"? Just curious :wave:

Those who are held up to be an example to imitate . . just as Paul said to imitate him . . .

.
 
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Benedicta00

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yep.... I can't really control what other people do.
which is why OBOB would have been better. You could have had a meaningful conversation and spared Theresa myself and others from being called rude, faithless, arrogant and whatever else.
 
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Oblio

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I think I get it...
I think...

It's like the Baptists at my hubby's church (don't take offense yet, keep reading please) when they go up to the altar to pray for whatever reason...some of them look up to the cross that's hanging over the baptistry while they're praying...

the statues of the saints are kinda like that ... a focus tool...a reminder that if they could live godly lives you can too???????

am I close?
Very :)

Or like when a adolescent (or older ^_^ ) boy has posters of Michael Jordan, or here in the South, Dale Earnheart ( ^_^ ^_^ ) because they want to emulate their qualities. In the case of Saints, the qualities they exhibit are those outlined by Christ in the Holy Scriptures.

So we have 'posters' of our heroes, we learn about their lives, and what they did to become like Christ.
 
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thereselittleflower

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I think I get it...
I think...

It's like the Baptists at my hubby's church (don't take offense yet, keep reading please) when they go up to the altar to pray for whatever reason...some of them look up to the cross that's hanging over the baptistry while they're praying...

the statues of the saints are kinda like that ... a focus tool...a reminder that if they could live godly lives you can too???????

am I close?

Not just close, but dead on. This is the beginning of understanding of the use of religious statues and icons in Catholicism :)

They are reminders to us . . examples of the Christian faith. When you are surrounded by such examples, you are constantly being reminded of how you are to live your life, and how you are actually living your life (good or bad) . .are you living your life by truly taking up your croos, denying yourself and following Jesus as these people did?

It is very, very humbling to have these images surrounding us . .

Just seeing a statue of a saint calls to mind so many aspects of the Christian faith . . our duties to God and man, the great cloud of witnesses Paul speaks of, the calling of Christ to enter in at the narrow door, to deny ourselves, take up our crosses and follow Him no matter what the cost . .

In a society full of images of sin that constantly assault us day in and day out, why would we not find great benefit from having images of those who have gone before us, leading by the example of their holy and chaste lives, to help us have constant reminders of the holiness we are to be living our lives in?

Why does satan get to assault us with all sorts of perverse images, but the Church can't use images of holy men and women to help counter this by giving us constant visual reminders and encouragements of a holy and chaste Christian faith and walk?

We are visual people . . we benefit greatly when we surrround ourselves with visual reminders of the Chrisitan walk and faith.

Now that I understand (where once I didn't) I can't imagine not availing myself of such help. :)


.
 
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Benedicta00

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Understanding the saints begins with reading their lives. The reason I reference mother theresa so much is because I know the average person is somewhat familiar with her.

Who here can say they are not at least a little inspired by what she did on earth?

She was the example of the gospel, "what so ever you do to the least of these, you have done it unto to me."

So if anyone sees a pic of mother theresa or a statue, it will remind them of who she was. A true believer and it calls to mind how we need to be a little less self absorbed and go out and serve Christ through our neighbor.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Well, your welcome. Like I said, while it's not my thing it's between you and God. I don't think Jesus would like some of the things that are being said and I just want the Catholics to know that while I have differing beliefs I'm not against them. I don't want to look like I am an enemy, because we're all essentially family.

Thank you Elsa . ..


.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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So if anyone sees a pic of mother theresa or a statue, it will remind them of who she was. A true believer and it calls to mind how we need to be a little less self absorbed and go out and serve Christ through our neighbor.
Hi. I will always remember what Ghandi said and this applies to any person, whether Christ-ian or not. :wave:

Gandhi turned to Christ as the model of behavior he most wanted to emulate.
Gandhi declared that if all Christians BEHAVED like Jesus Christ, if all Christians simply modeled their behavior on that of Jesus Christ, that there would BE NO OTHER RELIGION IN THE WORLD BUT CHRISTIANITY.
In short, Gandhi challenged ALL Christians to behave more like Jesus Christ.


Paul said to "examine all things and hold on to what is good". Ghandi did not become a Christian, partially due to the example of Christians. This is sad.
 
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FrauleinElsa

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Hi. I will always remember what Ghandi said and this applies to any person, whether Christ-ian or not. :wave:

Gandhi turned to Christ as the model of behavior he most wanted to emulate.
Gandhi declared that if all Christians BEHAVED like Jesus Christ, if all Christians simply modeled their behavior on that of Jesus Christ, that there would BE NO OTHER RELIGION IN THE WORLD BUT CHRISTIANITY.
In short, Gandhi challenged ALL Christians to behave more like Jesus Christ.


Paul said to "examine all things and hold on to what is good". Ghandi did not become a Christian, partially due to the example of Christians. This is sad.

I think that is good advice. I mean if we could do that no matter our denomination WE COULD RULE THE WORLD, lol! For those who don't know my sense of humor, that was a joke^_^ . But really we could draw people to us instead of pushing them away. Hmmm...interestng thought.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I think that is good advice. I mean if we could do that no matter our denomination WE COULD RULE THE WORLD, lol! For those who don't know my sense of humor, that was a joke^_^ . But really we could draw people to us instead of pushing them away. Hmmm...interestng thought.
Actually, it was an ex-christian atheist that brought it up awhile back.
Here was an interesting post by one.

http://www.christianforums.com/t4605...out-islam.html

Response from Atheist to Muslim:

As near as I can tell, these are mere semantics. You claimed that Islam includes a belief that there is a "God within us," and I simply chimed in that so does Christianity has a pretty much identical belief. On this issue, the two religions merely differ on the characteristics they attribute to their respective deities. They are far more similar, it seems to me, than adherents of either religion are willing to admit.

A protestant Christian, for example, will tell you that Catholics are worshiping false gods when they pray to Mary or the saints. A Catholic might instead say that there is one true God, and these others, while they can hear and answer prayers, are not gods themselves, but just exceptional people who have been given their own responsibilities by God in heaven. God is still placed above them all, and thus there is no idolatry (none of these saints are placed 'before' God).

Similarly, in the doctrine of the trinity, it seems that while no Christian has a coherent explanation for what the trinity means, they seem to believe that they are describing one single deity that has this (paradoxical) attribute of being a trinity. The fact remains that they still consider themselves to be worshiping one single deity.

In the end, these are mere arguments over the meanings of words. I myself see no purpose to such arguments whatsoever, except to show the meaninglessness of religion: if religions can't even properly define that in which they worship, why do they think it exists at all?
 
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Benedicta00

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What It Means To Be Blessed


For many, even in the Church, the Catholic practice of beatifying and canonizing is an enigma. Why does the Church do it? How does the Church do it? What are the implications of being canonized, or beatified?

General History.

First it should be noted that according to the testimony of Sacred Scripture every Christian is a saint. The Greek New Testament speaks in many places of the hagios (Acts 9:32; Rom 15:25, 31; Eph 1:1; Col. 1:2; Jude 1:3 and others). The Latin Vulgate speaks of the sancti, which is rendered in some English translations as the saints and in others as the holy ones. As St. Peter tells Christians, "you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own, so that you may announce the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light." The saints are set apart by God through baptism, filled with His divine life (the Kingdom of God within), and called to announce that Kingdom's presence in the world to the whole human race. Thus it is that in the Scriptural usage all of those baptized into Christ and in the state of grace can rightly be called saints.

In another sense, stricter and more technical, the saints are those in whom Christ's victory over sin, the devil and death has not just begun, as it has in us, but has been completed. This is the case when the wayfaring state of earthy life is concluded and the holiness of life attained in the pilgrim's state is realized perfectly in heaven. Even while saying that no one is truly good but God (Mt 19:17), Christ called us to the perfection of goodness, of holiness, "be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect" (Mt 5:48, Mt 19:21; Col. 4:12, James 1:4), since nothing imperfect will enter into heaven (Rev 21:27).

The early Church understood that only the Christian who followed Christ perfectly would go immediately into the heavenly Jerusalem. Others would enter the purifying fires of purgation "to be made perfect," from which they would not depart until they had "paid the last penny" (Mt 5:26, 1 Cor 3:13, 15). Since perfection was conformity to Christ in His death, a process begun at baptism, the martyr (literally, witness) for Christ was seen to have achieved the goal. Thus, during the age of persecution (from Pentecost to 311 AD) esteem for those Christians who had been killed in hatred of the faith (in odium fidei) lead them to extol their example of heroic witness to Christ, to guard and preserve their relics (the trophies of victory over death) and to celebrate the anniversary of their birthday into eternal life. The Circular Letter of the Church of Smyrna on the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp (155 AD) illustrates this esteem perfectly.

We have at last gathered his bones, which are dearer to us than priceless gems and purer than gold, and laid them to rest where it was befitting they should lie. And if it be possible for us to assemble again, may God grant us to celebrate the birthday of his martyrdom with gladness, thus to recall the memory of those who fought in the glorious combat, and to teach and strengthen by his example, those who shall come after us.

Finally, the greatest tribute of honor that could be rendered to the martyr was to have his or her name mentioned in the Canon (or Eucharistic Prayer) of the Mass, accompanying the Lord in His Redemptive Sacrifice. This was done on their feast day, the day of their entry into eternal life. The Roman Canon (Eucharistic Prayer 1) retains the eloquent testimony of the Roman Church for the Mother of the Lord, for the apostles, and the most significant martyrs of Rome and Italy.

"In union with the whole Church ...we honor Mary ... Peter and Paul, Andrew, James, John, Thomas, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Simon and Jude; we honor Linus, Cletus, Clement, Sixtus, Cornelius, Cyprian, Lawrence, Chrysogonus, John and Paul, Cosmas and Damian." (Communicantes)

"For ourselves, too, we ask some share in the fellowship of your apostles and martyrs, with John the Baptist, Stephen, Matthias, Barnabas, Ignatius, Alexander, Marcellinus, Peter, Felicity, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucy, Agnes, Cecilia, Anastasia and all the saints." (Nobis quoque peccatoribus)

Thus, in the early centuries of the Church the popular acclaim of sanctity in the martyrs, the veneration of their relics, the honoring of their names in private and liturgical prayer (with the consent of the local bishop) canonized important witnesses to Christ in the universal, and the local, Church, as examples of the perfect fidelity to which all Christians are called.

Although the age of martyrs has never truly ended, the relative peace that existed after the Edict of Milan in 311 meant that martyrdom was a rarer example of perfection than it had been. The Church began to look for other models of holiness, other ways in which conformity to Christ could be a witness to the faithful and the world, the living out in daily Christian life of the dying to self and living for Christ undertaken in baptism. This witness was found in those whose white martyrdom of heroic virtue confessed to the world the triumph of light over darkness, of grace over sin, of the new man over the old man (Eph 4:17-24), and thus of Christ over Satan. Thus, such Confessors, the witness of whose life had the fame of holiness, began to enter the roles of the canonized.

This cultus* (religious veneration) was generally of a single diocese, but as the fame of the person spread it could encompass several dioceses, and in the case of Mary, the apostles and other significant figures be universal in fact. Although the records of early Church Councils shows occasional interventions to correct abuses in the naming of saints and to establish criteria for their acclamation, the process continued to be a local one with some few examples of Popes declaring saints of universal veneration.

The first canonical process seems to be that of Pope Urban II (1089-99), in the "Cause" of Nicholas of Trani. The Bishop of Trani was ordered to conduct a local investigation into his alleged sanctity and miracles, which then would be submitted to the Pope for judgement. This first "Cause" dragged on over several pontificates, and seems not to have been concluded favorably. It also seems to have occasioned developments in the legal procedures themselves, Callistus II (1119-24) requiring all causes to include a critical biography of the Servant of God. As often happens in the Church, abuses brought about major developments in Church practice. In 1170 Pope Alexander III decreed that no one could be declared a saint without the permission of the Supreme Pontiff. This was precipitated by the acclamation as saint of a Swedish "martyr" who was killed while drunk, and thus could not be truly said to be a willing witness for Christ. This regulation was formally incorporated into Church law by Pope Gregory IX in 1234.

The centralization of the canonization process in Rome was an inevitable development of the Church's theological and canonical Tradition. While the acclamation of the faithful and the acceptance of the bishop is in most cases an adequate witness to the holiness of the person, it only provides a moral certainty, a reasonable credibility, that the person is in heaven. In order to give universal witness to the sanctity of someone a higher standard needed to be invoked, that of the charism of the infallibility of the Church. According to Catholic teaching the Church, the Mystical Christ, cannot err in matters of faith and morals (Jn 16:13). The practical exercise of this infallibility falls to the apostolic office, which in the name and by the authority of Christ the Head of the Church intends to bind the faithful in a matter of faith or morals. This can be done either by the college of bishops as a whole, as in a Council (Acts 15:28 15:28), or by the Successor of St. Peter (Lk 22:32, Acts 15:7-12 15:7-12). By the grace of the Holy Spirit Christ protects such judgements of universal import for the Church from error. The common opinion of theologians historically, therefore, is that papal Canonization is an exercise of the charism of infallibility, protecting the Church from raising an unfitting individual to the universal veneration of the faithful. As in the case of a dogmatic declaration, the declaration of a saint inserts that person into the heart of the Church's life, in this case into the central mystery of the faith, the Eucharist, and must by its nature be free from error.

Cause for Beatification/Cause for Canonization.

According to an ancient theological axiom grace builds on nature. For this reason the Church is very careful to exhaust the human and reasonable means of determining the sanctity of a person before relying on supernatural ones. As noted earlier the papal canonization process quickly developed certain procedures which had to be followed in the diocese and in Rome, such as the collecting of evidence, of testimonies of witnesses and the writing of a critical biography. By the fourteenth century two regular processes were in place, the Cause for Beatification and the Cause for Canonization. The first, when successfully concluded, allowed some measure of veneration of the Blessed by the faithful, in his or her diocese, by a religious order, by a nation. The second permitted universal veneration of the Saint by the Church. The concluding stage of each was conducted in the form of a trial, with sides for or against. The office of the Promoter of the Faith or Devil's Advocate, who argued against the Servant of God, dates from this era.

The Processes have gone through several revisions and refinements over the centuries, including two recent ones, under Pope Paul VI in 1969 and under Pope John Paul II in 1983. Included in Pope Paul's reforms were the consolidation of the processes into a single Cause for Canonization. Notable in those of Pope John Paul II was the elimination of the Devil's Advocate, as well as many procedural changes.
 
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Benedicta00

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Hi. I will always remember what Ghandi said and this applies to any person, whether Christ-ian or not. :wave:

Gandhi turned to Christ as the model of behavior he most wanted to emulate.
Gandhi declared that if all Christians BEHAVED like Jesus Christ, if all Christians simply modeled their behavior on that of Jesus Christ, that there would BE NO OTHER RELIGION IN THE WORLD BUT CHRISTIANITY.
In short, Gandhi challenged ALL Christians to behave more like Jesus Christ.


Paul said to "examine all things and hold on to what is good". Ghandi did not become a Christian, partially due to the example of Christians. This is sad.
It's like ST Francis, "Preach the gospel at all times, use words when needed."
 
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catlover

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hello all.

I was waiting for my fiancee to finish getting her hair done, when I came across a place where they were selling statuettes of Mary, Christ, etc...

I ordinarily don't care much about the statuettes... I've seen them before, and RCC believes many things about Mary that I do not, but that is their perogative.

A few left me with a disturbed feeling, however.

For instance:



This statue was titled "Mary instructs Christ." In her hand is a bible.



this one is called "lighting the way."


this one depicts Mary as some kind of warrior. On the chalice, it has JHS... dont' know what that means.

did a count on the statuettes. (the table went around the corner, not pictured.) 3 statuettes of Christ. 2 of Mother Theresa. a dabbling of statuettes of unnamed saints. 58 statuettes of Mary.

Now, whether or not Marian Dogmas of RCC are true or not (I do not wish do debate that.) Even if they ARE true....

does the fact that Marian statuettes out number those of Christ nearly 20 to 1 not speak of the attention given Mary as opposed to Christ?

does the fact that they depict Mary instructing Christ in the scriptures not bug anyone?

The other two photos would require some explaination to me, but they left me feeling oddly bothered.

Another one, not pictured, showed Mary standing on a snake. I know what scripture this is in reference to, but the scripture states
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

In which the seed (Christ) would bruise his head (the serpent) NOT Mary.

Perhaps some clarification is in order.

However, I do not want this to turn in to a flame war. Please refrain from doing so.

I simply want to question RCC members on what appears to be error, most tellingly the crushing of the snake, the Mary teaching Christ scripture, and the overwhelming amount of attention paid to Mary in statuettes... as opposed to Jesus.

Any thoughts?



You need to pray about this.
I want you to keep in mind, though, part of your reaction maybe due to culture.

Though my parents did not raise me in The RC or Orthodox Church, many icons were around the house. For instance a little statue of St. Anthony, and a wooden like "book" that has an olive toned Mary painted on one side of the wooden "book" while Joseph was painted on the other. Or the picture on the wall of the olive toned Mary wearing silver like clothing.

This stuff does not strike me as evil because I was brought up with it.


What I think is pretty interesting, and I would like someone to explain what is with taking a bath tub, painting it blue on the inside and sticking a statue of Mary or Jesus in it?
 
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Dragons87

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Just a thought for those austere Protestants lurking this page that think all forms of artwork in worshipping or in church is bad....

God gave humans the capacity to be creative, and I believe we are supposed to get enjoyment out of art. Where more better to use art and enjoy it in our worship of God?

In this sense, I support religious art for decoration and enjoyment, and even perhaps to an tool to aid worship or meditation.
 
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HisKid1973

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Just a thought for those austere Protestants lurking this page that think all forms of artwork in worshipping or in church is bad....

God gave humans the capacity to be creative, and I believe we are supposed to get enjoyment out of art. Where more better to use art and enjoy it in our worship of God?

In this sense, I support religious art for decoration and enjoyment, and even perhaps to an tool to aid worship or meditation.

You know I see your point and do agree..On my LR walls I have scenic prints with scripture underneath to remind me of the promises of God..I just have trouble connecting that with kneeling before them and praying..Since I am disabled, I am able to be in an attitude of prayer throught the day. I guess I don't need to have a visual stimulant to motivate me to pray. I do tho have a church prayer list, email prayer list , a mission newsletter in the bathroom and pray for individual cf members as the Lord leads. I guess it is not something I,m used to or have been around..I have to admit I don't think the "majority" do "worship" the item persay. I guess they way I see some explain it is like the warm thoughs I have when I look at pictures of or children and grandchildren...It seems some were bothered by some comments I previously made , but like I said before: I believe God saw to it that all we need to find Him, become "born anew" and mature in our walk with Him is contained in the sacred scriptures.. I am just leery to see things being done instuted by man apart from the original apostles....pax....Kim
 
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rosiecotton

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rosie, you are being honest and I appreciate that.

I know how it looks to non Catholics, people who never were Catholic and I do not fault them but for those who were supposedly raised and/or was Catholic for several years, they know the Church has NEVER taught them that saints are to be worship, they know when they genuflected that is all they were doing, was genuflecting, and not bowing down to.

We do not worship the saints, we do not bow down to them. We genuflect in honor of who they were/are in heaven.

We don't have to even do this if we do not want to.

I truly do not know what is happening here, other than people do not like being shown that they are wrong about us??

I don't know why our explanations are not suffice. You can still disagree with the practice but don't tell us what we are doing or that the Church teaches us to do something it doesn't.

That's really not nice and baring a false witness. And I don't mean you as in personal you Rosie, but you as in general you.

Thanks, I know you didn't mean me personally.
My sister-in-law is Catholic. And even though I don't totally agree with all her beliefs, she is one of the sweetest, most loving people I know. And I know she loves God and Jesus. :)
 
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