Statues and Images....

[MariaRegina]

I read a few weeks ago in an Orthodox publication that statues are totally accepted in the Orthodox tradition and many beautiful statues from Russia are becoming known.

My dearest joy in Christ: Christ is in our midst!

I think you are all missing the point.

Sure it's not a sin to pray. Indeed St. Paul tells us to pray unceasingly.

But it's the PLACE where one prays in public that's important.

SHOULD A CATHOLIC OR CHRISTIAN PROSTRATE INSIDE A MOSQUE?

Praying in a Roman Catholic garden and making the sign of the Cross in front of the Catholic Church, give the impression that all is well and that we have sacramental unity. WE DON'T HAVE SACRAMENTAL UNITY. Therefore, we can unknowingly cause confusion in the very young regarding ecclesiology. We can also unknowingly sin or cause scandal with serious consequences later on.

This is a harsh reality to face, and it brings me to tears that we don't have unity yet. I do pray that one day we will be one, but I don't want a false union either.

Recently I attended the funeral of a Catholic friend. My Orthodox Priest said that I could go, but that I wasn't allowed to participate in the Funeral Mass in any way. I could not sing, say their prayers, nor receive communion. It was hard. Nevertheless, my friends were grateful that I came. Since I could not participate at the funeral which I did attend, I helped with the food at the Mercy Meal that followed. The relatives were very touched.

STATUES FROM RUSSIA

You must also realize that Russia was heavily influenced by the West with artists from Italy decorating their churches. Several Tsars were responsible for bringing the Jesuits and other orders into Russia to educate the royalty. What happened? Where do you think the Russian Greek Catholic Church came from? Russia was also heavily influenced by the Vatican during the time of the Polish captivity.

BTW: Isn't it interesting that the grass is greener on the other side?
Some Catholic Dioceses are doing away with statues in their churches and some are even replacing statues with icons. In fact, the major customers of icons at most Orthodox Monasteries are now Catholics. Are the Orthodox now buying statues? I haven't heard that one yet but perhaps the Russians are?

Is the Sunday of Orthodoxy going to be banned soon? Each year on that Sunday we boldly proclaim, "This is the Orthodox Faith."

YSIC,

Elizabeth

 

[Reader Nilus]

My dearest joy in Christ: Christ is in our midst!

Praying in a Roman Catholic garden and making the sign of the Cross in front of the Catholic Church, give the impression that all is well and that we have sacramental unity. WE DON'T HAVE SACRAMENTAL UNITY. Therefore, we can unknowingly cause confusion in the very young regarding ecclesiology. We can also unknowingly sin or cause scandal with serious consequences later on.
This is a harsh reality to face, and it brings me to tears that we don't have unity yet. I do pray that one day we will be one, but I don't want a false union either.
Recently I attended the funeral of a Catholic friend. My Orthodox Priest said that I could go, but that I wasn't allowed to participate in the Funeral Mass in any way. I could not sing, say their prayers, nor receive communion. It was hard. Nevertheless, my friends were grateful that I came. Since I could not participate at the funeral which I did attend, I helped with the food at the Mercy Meal that followed. The relatives were very touched.
Elizabeth

I find your views highly legalistic and not Orthodoxy as I know it. Praying in a Catholic garden in no way implies unity, and I fail to see how that would cause confusion to anyone. We are not to take communion in a non-Orthodox Church, but there is no reason why one would not sing or even pray. My priest has gone to two Lutheran funerals and did not stand off to the side at either one of them. "We can also unknowingly sin or cause scandal with serious consequences later on." That sounds like it came from a Protestant legalist on why someone should not have a pint of beer when was hot and needed a tall cool one.
Jeff the Finn

 

[CopticOrthodox]

I think that praying in a Catholic garden is a lot different than participating in a Catholic Mass.

As for the Mass, I don't know, it seems to be an area of a lot of debate. I think it's best to leave those situations to the guidance of one's Father of Confession rather than trying to make broad rules.

 

[Maximus]

I appreciate everyone's input.

Of course, my original question had to do with praying before a statue of the Blessed Virgin and nothing to do with attending Mass or prostrating oneself in a mosque.

I am not attempting to receive the Eucharist in the RCC nor am I thinking of going RC (although I do have the utmost respect for the RCC).

I drive over an hour one way to attend my Orthodox Church. The Roman Catholic Church is within walking distance of my home. Obviously, it is easier, when out for a walk, to end up at St. John's RCC than it is to end up at my own church!

I enjoy the flower garden and the tranquility at St. John's. It's a good place to stop, rest, pray, and read a book in the shade.

I have not yet sorted out how an Orthodox Christian should regard the RCC, but I cannot see it as heretical; and no Orthodox council has ever declared it so.

That's why you won't generally catch me involved in arguments with Roman Catholics on this or any other web site. We have too much in common and, IMHO, should be focusing on that.

There are too many real heretics and unbelievers out there for me to worry about quibbling with people who will agree with me 99.9% of the time.

 

[MariaRegina]

I find your views highly legalistic
Jeff the Finn

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory to Him Forever!

One of your OCA bishops recently went to his mother's funeral in a non-Orthodox Church, didn't participate and publicly confessed that he promptly went to confession afterward.

Is he being legalistic?

I have to obey my priests; I promised obedience to the Church when I was chrismated. If my obedience seems legalistic to you, then the one who told me not to participate in my friend's funeral was legalistic too in your opinion.

Where does the judgmental flaming stop? Let us love one another and stop judging.

YSIC

Elizabeth

 

[Reader Nilus]

Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory to Him Forever!
I have to obey my priests; I promised obedience to the Church when I was chrismated. If my obedience seems legalistic to you, then the one who told me not to participate in my friend's funeral was legalistic too in your opinion.
YSIC
Elizabeth

I am not in the habit of asking my priest what to do or not do, as I am not under obedience to him, he is not my startz that I owe absolute obiedence to. I ask and he may give me advise, but that is all. My priest did not chew me out for speaking at my sister's Lutheran funeral, which he attended, let alone chew me out for singing the hymns. He also attended my dad's Lutheran funeral.
In 1985 I witnessed an Orthodox-Episcopal Funeral, which the Episcopal Church was the site and it had the Episcopal priest and reader which was myself, and a Greek Orthodox Priest and Cantor. The service was most interesting! The purests probably thought that Fr John the Greek Priest was way out of line, but he no doubt had the approval of his Bishop.
Never has anyone ever told me never to attend another church. The last I knew Orthodox were not JW's or some sort of cult. As long as one is not skipping a liturgy, to attend another church, and as long as you are not communing there, there is no problem whatsoever. As far as the Bishop is concerned, he may have felt that his presence met something that it did not, but as lay folks and low level clergy such amazement does not attend us.
Jeff the Finn

 

[MariaRegina]

I am not in the habit of asking my priest what to do or not do, as I am not under obedience to him...
Jeff the Finn

My Dearest Jeff: joy in Christ:

Christ is in our midst!

I guess Orthodoxy is unique because every person is unique. In my case I was in a Catholic monastery for three years as a novice.

The Orthodox Priest said that because of that commitment I made, even though no vows were taken, I really should not have married. You are probably aware that once an Orthodox monastic becomes a novice they are forbidden to marry. However, no impediments to marriage were noted by the Catholic priest who married us. So if my husband dies before I do, I am pretty certain that I will be advised not to remarry, and I am willing to accept that.

I suppose that because I was a novice (one under obedience), the Orthodox Church demands more obedience from me than you. The priest did tell me that because I studied more theology, more will be expected from me. In other words, I do have to watch what I do and say. I had to consume more books than the average catechumen!

Perhaps that is why I was told to ask permission before attending a non-Orthodox funeral or wedding.

BACK TO PRAYER

Now getting back to prayer in a Roman Catholic setting. I can pray silently (we all can) but not publicly in their church. Therefore I do pray grace before meals with my Catholic friends when we eat out.

This is all inconsistent advice, however, as the local Greek Cathedral has a Roman Catholic-Orthodox Christmas program every year with the Catholics singing their favorites in an Orthodox Church. Then the Patriarch of Constantinople goes to Rome and prays with the Pope at St. Peters. Why is he allowed to do that which I have been forbidden?

I'm not legalistic - I'm royally confused! In the meantime, I try not to do things that will earn me a rebuke, as I have been severely corrected in the past. Hey, I'm not stupid. I don't like dusting the floor, if you know what I mean. LOL

YSIC

Elizabeth

 

[Reader Nilus]

Just as the Gospel of St John relates, "When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, "Lord, what about this man?" Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!" Each of us is different, and we have different crosses to bear, I was not even required to renounce the heresies of my past, although I saw others having to do that, it is what the Lord's Will is and for each us, it is a little different. We have different tasks and therefore different temptations. It is not a temptation for me to pray with Roman Catholics or Protestants for that matter, if I end up in one of their churches, it is being polite, as once I was given rides of a 110 miles one way to the Liturgy at St Spiridon's in Seattle, with a friend who went on to his Calvery Chapel. So out of my friendship with him I would go to his Calvery Chapel on a night when there was no Orthodox Service. It made him happy and he would come with me to St Spiridon's or even some of the Pre sanctified's at St Demetrios Greek Orthodox Church. Outside of that it has been over 14 years that I have been to an Anglican or Lutheran service outside of funerals for my family. I got called in for going to St Spiridon's by my priest, I had told him that, but the Dean jumped on him asking him why one of his Readers were there and not in Wilkeson. So I had to bring a letter of introduction. And I was also jumped on for not wearing my cassock at St Spiridon's. So it goes in Orthodoxy, you do not know a rule until you break it! No confusion it is just the way Orthodoxy is.
Jeff the Finn

 

[MariaRegina]

So it goes in Orthodoxy, you do not know a rule until you break it! No confusion it is just the way Orthodoxy is.
Jeff the Finn

My dearest Jeff in Christ,

Christ is in our midst!

Yes, if a person is not humble, Orthodoxy will be an embarrassment!
In Orthodoxy, a person learns chant by actually chanting; however, with the eight tones, numerous saints for the day, and the many different choral texts, it's a lifetime of learning by making mistakes. Yet the Catholics practice until they get it right, made easier since they have fewer saints and one book; therefore, they don't fall on their faces as much.

It just keeps us humble.

 

[Caedmon]

(l) The person corrected could accept the penance and be forbidden to receive the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church for up to three years.

Aye caramba!!!

I didn't know that the Orthodox dealt so harshly with those that visited and partook of Communion at Catholic churches. Is this a common penance in the Orthodox Church? And why in the world would the priest keep the person from receiving Communion?

 

[MariaRegina]

My Dearest Joy in Christ, Joe:

Christ is in our midst!

Gloria a Jesucristo! Gloria a El para siempre!

In the early church, penances were quite common. The faith was not taken for granted as it sometimes is today. Both the Roman and the Orthodox Churches would penance anyone who committed serious sins such as murder, adultery, fornication, fortune telling, abortion, etc. These penanced people would be denied Holy Communion and would be required to make prostrations or wear sack cloths and ashes. The people would even ask for penances because of the deep sorrow they felt. Public penances were a sign of repentance.

Even today within Orthodoxy, if a person receives communion in a non-Orthodox Church the typical penance is for three years. I know two people who were given that penance recently. The priest penanced them because they PERSISTED in doing this. They didn't listen to the priest - they just didn't take him seriously.

One reason why I mentioned to the other posters that even praying in a Catholic garden could raise eyebrows is because a woman in our parish visited a protestant church and was penanced for three years. Note: she just visited - didn't even receive communion or participate in the service! However, she was told previously not to visit a Protestant Church because of her belief in the rapture.

We have some strict bishops here who won't tolerate any signs of instability, and I think it is also a reflection of the liturgical abuse that goes on within the Catholic and Protestant Churches on the West Coast. Hey, the Episcopalians have rave bikini masses! That's sacrilegious.

If you think penances are strict, look what happened to Ananias and Sapphira: they were struck dead for lying to St. Peter, because when a person lies to the Church, he is lying to the Holy Spirit. This incident is mentioned in Acts. It's biblical!

Perhaps the most important reason given for penancing sinners is the fact that we take St. Paul's warning to the Corinthians seriously. If we receive the Precious Body and Blood of Christ unworthily, we could be eating and drinking to our damnation and/or sudden death. If the priest believes that a person's salvation is at risk, he will ask them to refrain from receiving Holy Communion for a specified time until he believes that they are repentant.

Hope this helps. For more information try http://www.oca.org
and click Orthodox Christianity where Father John has an excellent Q&A section.

Your Sister in Christ,

Elizabeth

I didn't know that the Orthodox dealt so harshly with those that visited and partook of Communion at Catholic churches. Is this a common penance in the Orthodox Church? And why in the world would the priest keep the person from receiving Communion?

 

[CopticOrthodox]

Aye caramba!!!

I didn't know that the Orthodox dealt so harshly with those that visited and partook of Communion at Catholic churches. Is this a common penance in the Orthodox Church? And why in the world would the priest keep the person from receiving Communion?

There is no intercommunion between our Churches. Before there could be, anathamas would have to be lifted (done with EO, not OO), and differences overcome. Just like Catholics can't have Communion in a Protestant Church, Orthodox can't in a Catholic Church. Communion is a deep expression of unity, and to have it with people we don't have that unity with would be a lie. A lot of kids have Communion at Catholic schools becuase their teachers tell them the should, and pressure them to until they give in. These kids aren't dealt with harshly. The above quoted rule could be used in an extreme case where someone knew the rules of the Church, and chose to disobey them as a statement of disagreement with the Church, not in a case of someone not knowing and making a mistake.

 

[pax]

I realize Orthodox are not allowed to receive Holy Communion in a non-Orthodox churuch, but is there an open communion policy between the various Orthodox jurisdictions (I think that's the work I'm looking for)?

 

[Philip]

I realize Orthodox are not allowed to receive Holy Communion in a non-Orthodox churuch, but is there an open communion policy between the various Orthodox jurisdictions (I think that's the work I'm looking for)?

The Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions are in communion with each other.

 

[jukesk9]

We have a new Orthodox Church in the city I live in. I've been wanting to go just to observe, etc. My question for y'all would be this: Obviously I believe in the Real Presence. So, should I genuflect when entering an Orthodox Church?

 

[pax]

I don't think the Orthodox generally reserve the Blessed Sacrament unless taking it to the sick. Also, I read somewhere that bowing and making the sign of the cross is rather commonplace, but maybe it would be better to wait for someone who is actually Eastern Orthodox to answer the question.

 

[MariaRegina]

I don't think the Orthodox generally reserve the Blessed Sacrament unless taking it to the sick. Also, I read somewhere that bowing and making the sign of the cross is rather commonplace, but maybe it would be better to wait for someone who is actually Eastern Orthodox to answer the question.

My dearest joy in Christ:

Christ is in our midst!

In the SCOBA Orthodox Churches (OCA, Carpatho-Russians, Greek Archdiocese, Antiochian Archdiocese, and others) Holy Communion is reserved for the sick. That is why there is a red sanctuary lamp.

It is considered a sign of respect to make the sign of the cross while bowing when entering an Orthodox Church. We do not genuflect. Just watch and do what the majority of Orthodox do, unless there are a lot of visitors who don't know what they are doing either. LOL

Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[Philip]

We have a new Orthodox Church in the city I live in. I've been wanting to go just to observe, etc. My question for y'all would be this: Obviously I believe in the Real Presence. So, should I genuflect when entering an Orthodox Church?

If you are going to visit, you might want read this article: First Visit to an Orthodox Church.

 

[MariaRegina]

There is no intercommunion between our Churches. Before there could be, anathamas would have to be lifted (done with EO, not OO), and differences overcome. .

Dearest joy in Christ:

Christ is in our midst!

The lifting of the anathamas in the 1960's was only between the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Pope of Rome.

The Patriarch of Constantinople does not represent the Russian Patriarch, the Antiochian Patriarch and the other national churches. This whole thing of different jurisdictions is rather confusing to Roman Catholics, but there is one advantage. Since we do not have a common figurehead (Christ is the Head of the Church), it will be very difficult to destroy Orthodoxy. The Communists found that out! Besides, Christ said that He would be with us always until the end of the world.

Some of the Old Calendar Eastern Orthodox churches are not in communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople. These non-SCOBA old calendarists include HOCNA, Russian Church Outside of Russia, etc.

However, Orthodox churches within the USA who are part of The Standing Conference of Orthodox Bishops in America (SCOBA), which does not include the Oriental Orthodox, are in communion with one another. Furthermore, within SCOBA there are old calendar (Julian) churches such as some OCA parishes and the Serbians.

Hope this helps.

YSIC

Elizabeth

 

[Caedmon]

Even today within Orthodoxy, if a person receives communion in a non-Orthodox Church the typical penance is for three years. I know two people who were given that penance recently. The priest penanced them because they PERSISTED in doing this. They didn't listen to the priest - they just didn't take him seriously.

Why is it so harsh? And why is that the standard duration of the penance? What if the person comes to total repentance before that time is elapsed?

One reason why I mentioned to the other posters that even praying in a Catholic garden could raise eyebrows is because a woman in our parish visited a protestant church and was penanced for three years. Note: she just visited - didn't even receive communion or participate in the service! However, she was told previously not to visit a Protestant Church because of her belief in the rapture.

That is incredibly harsh. I can't believe the priest did that to her.

Hey, the Episcopalians have rave bikini masses! That's sacrilegious.

Do you have a source for this? I would like to read it.

If the priest believes that a person's salvation is at risk, he will ask them to refrain from receiving Holy Communion for a specified time until he believes that they are repentant.

So if a priest believes that someone with a 3-year penance has completely repented before their time is up, will he waive the rest of the penance?