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Starting to doubt

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by Abraham7777, Apr 7, 2021.

  1. Abraham7777

    Abraham7777 New Member

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    Hey guys,

    Please don't delete this thread - it's a genuine inquiry. I've recently been made aware of the sheer timeline of life on Earth, let alone the universe. Maybe you've seen this before, but this is a condensed version of life on Earth if it were a single year.
    Earth’s Calendar Year - Biomimicry 3.8.

    Jesus would have appeared somewhere in the last minute, 23:59. Someone argued to me that anthropocentrism makes us believe that the whole history of life on Earth, let alone the universe, is important to US. What about all the people before Jesus? What about all the animals for millions and millions of years before Jesus? What about the entirety of the universe for billions of years before humans? Was it all just for Jesus? It just doesn't make any sense to me anymore. Please help me reconcile these facts with my faith.
     
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  2. Friedrich Rubinstein

    Friedrich Rubinstein Well-Known Member

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    While those "billions of years" are very questionable from a scientific point of view it does say in the Bible:
    "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son" - Hebrews 1:1

    Jesus is God's final word. Yes, the final word was spoken at the end.
     
  3. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    Man appeared on the earth sometimes around 4,000 BC. Isaac Newton gives man’s reign on earth a little more than 6,000 years, with an unknown period of grace. With a thousand year millennial man’s reign on earth will be a little more than 7,000 years.

    The Ussher chronology is a 17th-century chronology of the history of the world formulated from a literal reading of the Old Testament by James Ussher, the Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland. The chronology is sometimes called the Ussher–Lightfoot chronology because John Lightfoot published a similar chronology in 1642–1644. This, however, is a misnomer, as the chronology is based on Ussher's work alone and not that of Lightfoot. Ussher deduced that the first day of creation was October 23, 4004 BC on the proleptic Julian calendar, near the autumnal equinox. Lightfoot similarly deduced that Creation began at nightfall near the autumnal equinox, but in the year 3929 BC. - Ussher chronology - Wikipedia
     
  4. NomNomPizza

    NomNomPizza Active Member

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    Good that it doesn't make sense for you because its all nonsense.
    Like for example do you believe miracles? if Yes then Jesus created wine , he skipped the whole process when bacteria nibble on it and make poo to make the wine just straight up made the finished product right?Likewise when he made man he made him out of dust of earth , and before he breath into his nostrils so this lifeless body became alive it was finished dead body , not spermcell inside evolved ape. Simple right?
    Likewise when something looks old doesn't mean it is old.
    Let's say people date stuff based on coal and assume since coal formed X amount of time then whatever is below it or surrounded by it did too but God could just create coal like he created wine , a finall product.

    Besides that Bible claims there is no death before sin for animals too.
     
  5. tdidymas

    tdidymas Newbie

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    Where does the Bible claim that?
     
  6. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    You are having an issue because you are trying to shove in billions of years when that is the biggest hoax by Satan ever devised.

    Remove billion of years, remove man's 'knowledge'
    1 Corinthians 3:19
    For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight.

    Read what the scriptures actually say not filtered through the above 'known facts' and what are you left with?
    Exodus 20:11
    For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.

    God created a 'perfect' world to show humanity what he planned.

    Man fell into sin. Sin brought in death of the body and the spirit.
    Jesus came to save us from that sin and ultimately death.
    When the full number come in Jesus will return.
    God will remake the earth to how it was before but non corruptible for us and it says 'death will be vanquished'. Because this was the plan all along, a perfect world for those who choose God.


    Now try and fit evolution into that picture and figure out how it fits- it doesn't, not in anyway.
     
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  7. Isaiah 41:10

    Isaiah 41:10 Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to the real world, where life isn't as simple as our Sunday school childrens books made it out to be. Glad you could join us.

    People before the time of Jesus worshipped God the father, all throughout the old testament. So just because people existed before Jesus, this doesn't really have much significance to whether or not Jesus died for our sins.

    Whether the universe is billions of years old or not really doesn't change the message of Christ. Loving God the father and loving your neighbor doesn't change based on the age of the universe.

    If you're stuck in a position where scripture appears to say one thing, but physical reality contradicts it, I would recommend sticking with physical reality, because nothing will ever be more true than what you can see with your own eyes. Especially not the literalist interpretations of scripture made by the minds of flawed men who read it and imagine what it says, in the absence of any actual observation.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2021
  8. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    The point of the style Genesis is written, is that you gradually begin to believe:
    • The first day was stationary
    • The second day gathered a little momentum
    • The third day built on the momentum of the second day
    • and so on and so forth
    You are not supposed to spend an equal amount of time contemplating each day. It is supposed to be a growing response to God, that you give God more time, as He gives you His Spirit.

    If your stance is that each subsequent day is supposed to plod along at the same rate of all the previous ones, you will develop a false sense of entitlement. It's not wrong to be selfishly entitled, if you don't mind sharing the manner in which you became that way. What God won't do is live for you - you are going to have to decide to pick up your cross and follow Him at some point (its not a pre-requisite that a certain amount of time pass, before you work for God)
     
  9. stevevw

    stevevw inquisitive

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    My figuring is that regardless of whether the earth is billions of years or 6,000 years God sent Christ at the perfect time no sooner or later to have the effect, response and impact on history and people it did up until this day.

    I think creation was not all for Jesus but rather all for us. Once again the timing and situation for humans to even appear in the timeline had to be set just right with the perfect conditions regarless of how it happened. Thats why we have the fine tuned universe even from the instant Gods word spoke it into being. It set of a chain of events that were centred around humans being created and that was Gods intention from the start. So everything was orchestrated for this.

    Nothing that happened today could have happened he way it is without a set of events that preceeded it to make our reality what it is and what it was meant to be. Its no accident. God knew that humans would fall but also knew that he had a plan to save us. It is amazing to think that Gods works also fit so well with the way the physics work in our reality. That God can also work by creating the mechanisms that make our world function and yet fit his plan into that where it is perfectly timed to have the greatest impact.
     
  10. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    My take, is that you need to refuse the Devil from offering an interpretation of your belief, for you.

    People used to believe that the Earth was flat and then someone came along and said "there's another perspective", and almost everyone decided 'no, the Earth is spherical'... But the change has nothing to do with perspective: even the Sun appears flat, when you are standing on it.

    Now you can chop and change what you believe all you want, the problem is doing it because everyone is in agreement with the Devil. Don't let the Devil dictate what you believe!

    In the beginning, things happened slowly, but days got gradually quicker - there is no need to refuse in the earlier slower days, because quicker days happened later...
     
  11. lifepsyop

    lifepsyop Regular Member

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    This is where professing believers who don't actually believe the Bible are going to have a really hard time answering you. The Evolutionist storyline completely contradicts the covenantal history between God and his people as revealed in scripture. You now see what should be plainly obvious to every Christian.

    And you have a choice to make... what do you hold in higher esteem? The Word of God or the wisdom of men? The narrow way of truth, or the broad way of deception?

    As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. - Matthew 24:37-39

    For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words? - John 5:46-47
     
  12. AdamjEdgar

    AdamjEdgar Member

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    Hi Abraham777...

    over the last year during COVID, i have had the opportunity to reflect a lot on Bible history, the various codexes used to write the translations we have, known individuals who wrote about early first century issues etc.

    Here is what i have learned...

    1. Papias is an early writer who existed around the time of the apostles. He may have even known one or two of them (either having attended meetings where they preached, or knew of them via a third party who had seen them in the flesh.)

    Writers such as Papias are clear evidence that the individuals spoken of in the New Testament absolutely 100% really existed...this is no fairy tale

    2. We have found many actual phsycial artefacts that prove the existence of various significant figures in the Old Testament and the new. Kings such as Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus of Persia, Jehu etc are found in non christian sources in museums around the world.

    This is irrefutable evidence that the Old Testament figures absolutely 100% existed. It is no fairy tale!

    3. Looking forward to a modern example...lets look at the theory of relativity by Albert Einstein which says "In special theory of relativity certain types of matter may be created or destroyed, but in all of these processes, the mass and energy associated with such matter remains unchanged in quantity"

    In light of this, i then immediately ask the question to any evolutionist..."please explain to me where the energy came from that started the big bang?" Do you know what the most likely answer to this question is? "we do not yet have the knowledge to answer that question!"

    So i then put this to you Abraham777...

    if an evolutionist is basing his life on the premise that hanging off a chain in the universe is contingent on a theory where the foundation link (the anchor) is unknown and also, that premise is also illogical to the foundation theory of all modern science (that matter and energy cannot be destroyed or created but only converted from one form to another such that the original sum of the two must always remain the same), how is it that Creationists should teeter on the precipice over a very logical and historically consistent theory of a Creator God?

    Lets then take this further... irrespective of all of the above, If an atheist who has absolutely no future hope after death, is willing to buy lotto tickets in the hope he can win, knowing the chances are many millions to one against, why is it mind numbingly stupid for a Christian to believe in a Lord and Saviour who offers a real future that costs nothing?
     
  13. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Paschal's Wager is a sucker bet, because merely believing is not sufficient.

    James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
     
  14. AdamjEdgar

    AdamjEdgar Member

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    Acts 16
    "30Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32Then Paul and Silas spoke the word of the Lord to him and to everyone in his house"
     
  15. GOD Shines Forth!

    GOD Shines Forth! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You nailed it:

    "But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons."—Gal. 4
     
  16. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    Paschal's Wager is a sucker bet, because merely believing is not sufficient.

    James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?


    So you're saying that if I believe, then I and everyone in my household will be saved? You sure about that? Well, let's see what Jesus has to say...

    Matthew 25:31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

    [36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

    [41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

    [46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

    I'll go with Jesus on this one. Sorry.
     
  17. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    You've confused "evolution" with religious philosophy. It's just a way of understanding an aspect of the physical world. Kind of like plumbing. So there's nothing at all in it that suggests anything you're suggesting. Darwin himself attributed creation of life to God. You've moved the discussion from evolution to what seems to be a myth perpetrated by people who don't know anything about the subject.

    Well, that's certainly taking the error further. How about reading up on the subject and coming back to talk to us about what it really is?
     
  18. MMXX

    MMXX I Got Vaccinated

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    28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.John 6:28-29
     
  19. The Barbarian

    The Barbarian Crabby Old White Guy

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    I'll go with Jesus on this. He says that the way you treat people in need determines whether you spend eternity with Him or with the devil and his angels. I believe Him.

    You should, too.
     
  20. miamited

    miamited Ted Supporter

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    Hi Abraham,

    Good name. Question: Do you have the faith of the first Abraham we hear from in the Scriptures?

    God's word says that the righteous shall live by faith. God's word says that faith is the assurance of things not seen.

    So, what am I saying? As I understand the Scriptures, prior to the creation of the earth, approximately 6,000 years ago, all that existed was the black emptiness of space. An area, if you will, of unbounded emptiness. The area that we know as the universe, but without any of the heavenly bodies that we see today 'in' the universe.

    The Scriptures declare that 'in the beginning' God created the heavens and the earth. This is also confirmed for us in the law of God. God tells us in His law of the Sabbath that He created all that is in this realm of His creating in six days.

    Now, science cannot prove the things of God. Science can't tell you how Jesus created wine from huge jugs of plain water, with which they were only moments before filled, into wine in pretty much the blink of an eye. Science can't tell you how a sea was parted to allow an entire nation of people to pass through, and just as quickly closed up to swallow an entire army that was hot on their heels. Science can't tell you how the sky over Bethlehem lit up with a heavenly host of angels declaring Glory to God and telling a gathering of nearby shepherds that Jesus had been born. Science can't tell you how Jesus was born, nor how he was resurrected from the dead. Despite our dependence on science, there is really quite a bit that it can't prove to us, and most all of those things have to do with God's working within His creation.

    But we are humans with a thirst to 'know' all about everything around us and we study and poke and prod and can only come up with natural explanations for how things came to be, because we sure can't explain miracles. The vastness of space and the passing of many many millennia of time allows man to 'fudge' all sorts of theories about how things came to be without being able to actually 'prove' how those things came to be. I mean, no one can replicate the day the earth was created, whether 6,000 years ago or 6 billion years ago. We can only poke and prod and extrapolate and formulate unproven theories, based on 'how' things operate today in the here and now.

    For example: one of the greatest complaints for the biblical timeline when we look at the natural properties of things, is that the earth must be billions of years old for us to 'see' many of the stars in the universe that we know to be great distances from the earth and we know, based on how light travels today, that light travels at a given and measurable speed. But, if the creation of the earth and the heavens was a miracle, then God could have 'stretched' the light of the stars on the day that they were created, to be seen upon the earth by man. After all, God does tell us that the creation of many of the stars was for the benefit of man to determine times and seasons. God's word declares to us that the heavens declare the glory of God! Why would God have created them, yet they weren't going to be seen for millions of years?

    But remember. The righteous shall live by faith. It is my faith that the creation of the realm in which we live, from one end of the universe to the other, (although the universe is claimed to have no end) was a miracle. A miracle created by a God whose purpose was to make a place for man to live and to prosper and to grow and to love Him. As far as I'm concerned, I'm going to live by that faith. I'm going to live believing that what the Scriptures say about the things of God is the truth of God. That means, as I read the Scriptures, that the earth was created before the sun, moon and stars. That means that plants were created on the day, which would have been about 24 hours, before the sun was created. They actually lived for this short period without the light of the sun to nourish them and begin their growing upon the earth. That means that within the span of 6 rotations of the planet earth, which is how the length of a day is determined, God made the earth, the plants the stars the animals and the first man. That first man's name was Adam and 130 years after his being created, he had a son in his likeness whom he named Seth. From that beginning, as accounted in the Scriptures, approximately 6,000 years have passed upon the earth, according to the Scriptures.

    By faith...I believe that.

    BTW, just for fun, you should look into the Hebrew calendar. It is claimed, by many Jews, to give us an accounting of years from the day that the earth was created. Today, that calendar lists the number of this year as: 5,781. Quite astonishing actually that the Hebrew calendar does seem to confirm the understanding that the created realm in which we live, for the pleasure and purposes of a wonderful God, is about 6,000 years old.

    What I do know, is that everything I know about God, came to me through God's people...Israel! God raised up a people, just as He told Abraham, for the very purpose of revealing through them, all that we know about Him. Israel was just as faithless as many of us in keeping God's laws and decrees and they suffered for that, but they did accomplish the purpose for which God raised them up from the loins of the other Abraham.

    God bless,
    Ted
     
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