Starting to doubt

[Sheila Davis]

Hey guys,

Please don't delete this thread - it's a genuine inquiry. I've recently been made aware of the sheer timeline of life on Earth, let alone the universe. Maybe you've seen this before, but this is a condensed version of life on Earth if it were a single year.
Earth’s Calendar Year - Biomimicry 3.8.

Jesus would have appeared somewhere in the last minute, 23:59. Someone argued to me that anthropocentrism makes us believe that the whole history of life on Earth, let alone the universe, is important to US. What about all the people before Jesus? What about all the animals for millions and millions of years before Jesus? What about the entirety of the universe for billions of years before humans? Was it all just for Jesus? It just doesn't make any sense to me anymore. Please help me reconcile these facts with my faith.

2nd Peter 3:8 but, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Some scriptures Christians take literally and some things they feel are metaphors. Many may disagree but this scripture is telling us God, nor anything he does is subjected to time. On man's given knowledge of the time frame, a million / billion years may have passed between when scripture says God said let there be light and/or what man calls the big bang singularity and the creation of Earth.

God called the Earth to bring forth life - first he called the Earth to bring forth plants - then he called the sea to bring forth living creatures - then he called the Earth to bring forth beast of the field. According to evolution - the Earth gave life to the plants first _ then the sea gave life to living creatures _ then the land gave life to the beasts of the fields. All those events in scripture and scientifically coincide with each other in occurrence. Time is for man to calculate his lifespan with - time is death and death is upon mankind. Genesis 3:8 and the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. (God formed man, God breathed the breath of life into man, God created a special Garden for man to live in and put man inside the garden.) God made man last - according to the evolution man is last. In Scripture a week can mean 7 years - but a day has to mean a literal day when it could mean millions of years. God told Adam the day he ate from the Tree of knowledge he would surely die, Adam lived hundreds of years, but he did not make it to 1,000 years _ ( 2nd Peter 3:8). God is telling man don't base what he does on our time frame.

Genesis 3:22 and the Lord God said, behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the Tree of Life, and eat, and live forever. ( Mankind had immortality before Adam disobeyed and ate from the Tree of knowledge.) Romans 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. 1st Corinthians 15:21 For since by one Man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the Dead

28:13 Thou has been in the Garden of God; every precious stone was died covering, and the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the Jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, the carbuncle, and gold; the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thou pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou was created. __ Earth is God's Garden, he created the Earth billions of years before he placed man here. Ezekiel 28:14 when Satan held a title of cherubim, he walked the mountain of God, the stones of fire __ this did not just occur six thousand years ago. A war happened as written in the book of Revelation - Michael and his angels fought and the devil and his angels - the devil lost - him and his angels were cast down to earth. This is a war that took place - it took place before the devil seduced Eve in the garden.

In the book of Job, the behemoth and the Leviathan are mentioned those are dinosaurs - not hippopotamuses elephants are large animal. Read their descriptions.

The book of Genesis told man to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the Earth why did God say replenish.?

The last days, after the death burial and resurrection of Christ, The last days began - even the calendar was changed. Jesus said he came to set family against each other - he said the gospel must be preached to All Nations as a witness then the end will come. Book of Daniel chapter 12 in the last days knowledge will increase and people will be moving to and fro - yes, knowledge has increased vastly in the past hundred years and people are not sitting still,they are moving to and fro - day and night constantly. The closer we get to his return the more intense all the prophecies will become and they are being fulfilled except the days of Noah and the revealing of the Antichrist. Man has determined that day in some cases mean literally day and it doesn't in all cases.

I understand what you're saying, it could be considered as being in the last seconds of time today.

Was it all just for Jesus - Jesus is the creator as John 1: 1-3 says in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God the same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made.
It is all about his Mercy - it's all about judgments.

 

[stevevw]

You nailed it:

"But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons."—Gal. 4

 

[AdamjEdgar]

2nd Peter 3:8 but, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Some scriptures Christians take literally and some things they feel are metaphors. Many may disagree but this scripture is telling us God, nor anything he does is subjected to time. On man's given knowledge of the time frame, a million / billion years may have passed between when scripture says God said let there be light and/or what man calls the big bang singularity and the creation of Earth.

God called the Earth to bring forth life - first he called the Earth to bring forth plants - then he called the sea to bring forth living creatures - then he called the Earth to bring forth beast of the field. According to evolution - the Earth gave life to the plants first _ then the sea gave life to living creatures _ then the land gave life to the beasts of the fields. All those events in scripture and scientifically coincide with each other in occurrence. Time is for man to calculate his lifespan with - time is death and death is upon mankind. Genesis 3:8 and the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. (God formed man, God breathed the breath of life into man, God created a special Garden for man to live in and put man inside the garden.) God made man last - according to the evolution man is last. In Scripture a week can mean 7 years - but a day has to mean a literal day when it could mean millions of years. God told Adam the day he ate from the Tree of knowledge he would surely die, Adam lived hundreds of years, but he did not make it to 1,000 years _ ( 2nd Peter 3:8). God is telling man don't base what he does on our time frame.

Genesis 3:22 and the Lord God said, behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the Tree of Life, and eat, and live forever. ( Mankind had immortality before Adam disobeyed and ate from the Tree of knowledge.) Romans 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. 1st Corinthians 15:21 For since by one Man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the Dead

28:13 Thou has been in the Garden of God; every precious stone was died covering, and the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the Jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, the carbuncle, and gold; the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thou pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou was created. __ Earth is God's Garden, he created the Earth billions of years before he placed man here. Ezekiel 28:14 when Satan held a title of cherubim, he walked the mountain of God, the stones of fire __ this did not just occur six thousand years ago. A war happened as written in the book of Revelation - Michael and his angels fought and the devil and his angels - the devil lost - him and his angels were cast down to earth. This is a war that took place - it took place before the devil seduced Eve in the garden.

In the book of Job, the behemoth and the Leviathan are mentioned those are dinosaurs - not hippopotamuses elephants are large animal. Read their descriptions.

The book of Genesis told man to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the Earth why did God say replenish.?

The last days, after the death burial and resurrection of Christ, The last days began - even the calendar was changed. Jesus said he came to set family against each other - he said the gospel must be preached to All Nations as a witness then the end will come. Book of Daniel chapter 12 in the last days knowledge will increase and people will be moving to and fro - yes, knowledge has increased vastly in the past hundred years and people are not sitting still,they are moving to and fro - day and night constantly. The closer we get to his return the more intense all the prophecies will become and they are being fulfilled except the days of Noah and the revealing of the Antichrist. Man has determined that day in some cases mean literally day and it doesn't in all cases.

I understand what you're saying, it could be considered as being in the last seconds of time today.

Was it all just for Jesus - Jesus is the creator as John 1: 1-3 says in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God the same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made.
It is all about his Mercy - it's all about judgments.

A very long post much of it wasted because of one fundamental issue right at the start...

The language used to write the Genesis story is translated as being sequential literal days.
This idea of them being possibly over thousands of years ignores the words and definately the context in which Moses wrote.
There are a number of other references throughout the Bible that also support literal 7 day creation. A good one is the fourth commandment!

If someone says to you, in six days the Lord created the earth but on the seventh day he rested, hallowed and sanctified that day, then the people who were given these laws on tablets of stone, and
our saviour modelled that exact same Sabbath worship timetable...how can you possibly come up with " the earth was created over thousands/or millions of years"?
It simply isn't logical. Anything that doesn't fit properly surely has to be a very very suspect doctrine. If it's highly suspect, it's almost certainly in error. In that case one is far better to not go over to that side in the first place. It is well proven what the errors in evolution are, it is also a huge issue that science cannot explain the origin of energy that even started the big bang...their answer to this dilemma is "we don't yet have the knowledge to answer that question."

My advice to the O.P. , start with proving how energy can come from nothing that started the big bang...the big bang that clearly goes against Einsteins theory of conservation of energy! Start there and the rest of evolution goes up in smoke!

 

[The Barbarian]

There are a number of other references throughout the Bible that also support literal 7 day creation. A good one is the fourth commandment!

I would be open to seeing your evidence, showing that if figurative language is repeated in scripture, that converts it to a literal history. What do you have?

t is well proven what the errors in evolution are, it is also a huge issue that science cannot explain the origin of energy that even started the big bang...their answer to this dilemma is "we don't yet have the knowledge to answer that question."

You've been badly misled about that. None of that has anything to do with evolutionary theory. You've confused cosmology and physics with evolution.

Would it be asking too much of you, for you to go and learn what biological evolution actually is, before you come and tell us about it?

 

[Sheila Davis]

A very long post much of it wasted because of one fundamental issue right at the start...

The language used to write the Genesis story is translated as being sequential literal days.
This idea of them being possibly over thousands of years ignores the words and definately the context in which Moses wrote.
There are a number of other references throughout the Bible that also support literal 7 day creation. A good one is the fourth commandment!

If someone says to you, in six days the Lord created the earth but on the seventh day he rested, hallowed and sanctified that day, then the people who were given these laws on tablets of stone, and
our saviour modelled that exact same Sabbath worship timetable...how can you possibly come up with " the earth was created over thousands/or millions of years"?
It simply isn't logical. Anything that doesn't fit properly surely has to be a very very suspect doctrine. If it's highly suspect, it's almost certainly in error. In that case one is far better to not go over to that side in the first place. It is well proven what the errors in evolution are, it is also a huge issue that science cannot explain the origin of energy that even started the big bang...their answer to this dilemma is "we don't yet have the knowledge to answer that question."

My advice to the O.P. , start with proving how energy can come from nothing that started the big bang...the big bang that clearly goes against Einsteins theory of conservation of energy! Start there and the rest of evolution goes up in smoke!

Not as long as many other post I've read. You may consider it a waste, but there may be someone out there will read, understand, and considers it an answer to some questions asked.
You believe neither in evolution or creation it seems - even Einstein believed in intelligent design, a creator but not the one man worships.
What I wrote seems more logical than anything I've read you wrote.
But to each his own views.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Not as long as many other post I've read. You may consider it a waste, but there may be someone out there will read, understand, and considers it an answer to some questions asked.
You believe neither in evolution or creation it seems - even Einstein believed in intelligent design, a creator but not the one man worships.
What I wrote seems more logical than anything I've read you wrote.
But to each his own views.

I don't think you read very well..you appear to have already confused my belief with someone else...I am a creationist!
I am not even going to bother answering the other part...that would waste brain space.

You are a Baptist and yet you are here supporting what exactly...evolution? What are you doing?

 

[AdamjEdgar]

I would be open to seeing your evidence, showing that if figurative language is repeated in scripture, that converts it to a literal history. What do you have?



You've been badly misled about that. None of that has anything to do with evolutionary theory. You've confused cosmology and physics with evolution.

Would it be asking too much of you, for you to go and learn what biological evolution actually is, before you come and tell us about it?

That is where you are 100% wrong...it's a typical argument..."oh but they are separate things"

Sorry but that misunderstands the entire concept.

Again...prove the origin of the energy that is the big bang...then you can bang on about evolution!

Evolution has always hinged on the premise, there is no God.

 

[The Barbarian]

That is where you are 100% wrong...

I used to teach science. Evolutionary theory has nothing to do with those things. Again, why not go and learn what it actually is, before you try to tell us about it?

it's a typical argument..."oh but they are separate things"

They are separate things. If the universe had begun naturally, evolution would still work as it does. God created the universe, and evolution still works the way it does.

Again...prove the origin of the energy that is the big bang

I believe God said "Let there be light." Do you believe in God? If so, this shouldn't be a problem for you.

Evolution has always hinged on the premise, there is no God.

That story won't fly, either...

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.
Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species, 1872

Again, if you would go and learn something about it, you'd be a lot more effective in telling us about it.

 

[Sheila Davis]

I don't think you read very well..you appear to have already confused my belief with someone else...I am a creationist!
I am not even going to bother answering the other part...that would waste brain space.

You are a Baptist and yet you are here supporting what exactly...evolution? What are you doing?

Then Why are you wasting your brain space even replying to anything I've said and who told you I was a Baptist? And just as you said about me concerning my views on what you wrote - your views on what I wrote shows you don't read very well - "I appear to be very confused."

 

[AdamjEdgar]

who told you I was a Baptist? "I appear to be very confused."

You did! (see below)

Now if that is a mistake, now is the time to correct it.

If it isn't a mistake???

 

[AdamjEdgar]

I used to teach science. Evolutionary theory has nothing to do with those things. Again, why not go and learn what it actually is, before you try to tell us about it?



They are separate things. If the universe had begun naturally, evolution would still work as it does. God created the universe, and evolution still works the way it does.



I believe God said "Let there be light." Do you believe in God? If so, this shouldn't be a problem for you.



That story won't fly, either...

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.
Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species, 1872

Again, if you would go and learn something about it, you'd be a lot more effective in telling us about it.

Oh my oh my oh my...see here is the problem...
Genesis 2:19&20 "And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and He brought them to the man to see what he would name each one. And whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20The man gave names to all the livestock, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam no suitable helper was found."

In the Bible early on it refers specifically to Adam naming all the animals...he did that in his own lifetime, before he died (most likely very soon after they were created whilst still in the garden of Eden actually).

So how exactly does a theistic evolutionist resolve that dilemma? (Please don't come out with "the man" is not Adam...we all know it is however...just to put that one to rest right here and now... Genesis 2:18
"The LORD God also said, It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make for him a suitable helper."


Perhaps the one who needs to do some learning here is a little closer to home!

 

[The Barbarian]

Oh my oh my oh my...see here is the problem...
Genesis 2:19&20 "And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and He brought them to the man to see what he would name each one. And whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20The man gave names to all the livestock, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam no suitable helper was found."

In the Bible early on it refers specifically to Adam naming all the animals...he did that in his own lifetime, before he died (most likely very soon after they were created whilst still in the garden of Eden actually).

Yes, I can see why that passage is a huge problem for literalists. It causes them endless problems. The number of animal kinds is in the millions. Beetles alone comprise over 360,000 species and new ones are constantly being discovered.

However, the last phrase tells us why this is figurative. Do you honestly suppose God and Adam looked over all the animals in a vain search for one that would be his helper? Remember this is God.

And then God has a good idea, clones another human from Adam, drops the Y chromosome, adds another X, and presto! He has a helper.

No, God is not imperfect, does not make errors, and He knows everything. This is an allegory, not a literal history.

So how exactly does a theistic evolutionist resolve that dilemma?

It's a dilemma for creationists. I don't actually know how they deal with it. I think it's mostly denial.

Perhaps you could use a brush-up on Bible study as well. But the salient fact is, you don't seem to have a clue about what evolution is, or how evolutionary theory explains it. Most people who think they hate science, don't really know much about it. I'd hate it too, if I thought it was what you think it is.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Yes, I can see why that passage is a huge problem for literalists. It causes them endless problems. The number of animal kinds is in the millions. Beetles alone comprise over 360,000 species and new ones are constantly being discovered.

not a problem for creationists at all...Adam was created perfect. If one comes at it from that literal angle, then it is consistent with the Bible story!

However, the last phrase tells us why this is figurative. Do you honestly suppose God and Adam looked over all the animals in a vain search for one that would be his helper? Remember this is God.

I do not see that in the grammar. how do you read "its figurative" into what is clearly a day by day account of a very significant event?

"evening and morning day one.., evening and morning day two.., evening and morning day three..." Exodus 20

"...for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, but on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ” Exodus 31:19

It's a dilemma for creationists.
Perhaps you could use a brush-up on Bible study as well. But the salient fact is, you don't seem to have a clue about what evolution is, or how evolutionary theory explains it. Most people who think they hate science, don't really know much about it. I'd hate it too, if I thought it was what you think it is.

that isnt even an argument one way or the other...all you have done here is throw out a red herring that is not irrelevant to facts.

Again, prove to me the origin of the energy that started the big bang! If you cannot do this, then your evolution story goes up in smoke. The reason why it does this is because God said he "created all things"

Now how you can read "Created ALL things" as meaning its just figurative? (i can only assume by ignoring such definitive statements)

in answer to your charge i should do some study in evolution...i can only deduce from the arguments above, your own study in this area is extremely limited.

Steven Richardson wrote in Nov 30 2013:
"Theistic evolution is not identified as a scientific theory. Theistic evolution is a collection of opinions on how the theory of evolution could possibly fit with various religious beliefs."

Wayne Grudem (a well known theistic evolutionist) accepts in his book on theistic evolution:
"genetic information encoded in the DNA of every microbe, plant, animal, and human could only come from an intelligent mind. It could not be produced by undirected natural processes"

Dr Werner Gitt says of theistic evolution:
"Theistic evolution = matter + evolutionary factors (chance and necessity + mutation + selection + isolation + death) + very long time periods + God...In this system God is not the omnipotent Lord of all things...Theistic evolutionists attempt to integrate the two doctrines, however such syncretism reduces the message of the Bible to insignificance. The conclusion is inevitable: There is no support for theistic evolution in the Bible." (Creation 17, no 4 September 1995)

 

[The Barbarian]

not a problem for creationists at all...Adam was created perfect.

A perfect person does not sin. You've added "perfect" to God's word to make it more acceptable to you. He says His creation was "very good", not perfect. As you see, your version assumes God made a mistake and then had to find a way to fix it.

I do not see that in the grammar. how do you read "its figurative" into what is clearly a day by day account of a very significant event?

Here, you've assumed what you propose to prove. No wonder this is hard for you.

Again, prove to me the origin of the energy that started the big bang!

Don't have to. Being a Christian, I accept that God created it. You should, too.

in answer to your charge i should do some study in evolution...i can only deduce from the arguments above, your own study in this area is extremely limited.

Because you have no idea what it is, you don't have any way to know. Just for the record, how about you tell us what the scientific definition for biological evolution is? And then tell what Darwin's four basic points are, and which ones do you think are wrong?

Go for it.

Now how you can read "Created ALL things" as meaning its just figurative?

Christians believe God created all things. It's just that creationists don't approve of the way He did some of it.

"Theistic evolution is not identified as a scientific theory.

Of course it isn't. It's a Christian doctrine. Evolution is an observed phenomenon. Evolutionary theory is the scientific theory that describes how it works. As I said, you don't really know the first thing about this, and so you keep running into walls.

Wayne Grudem (a well known theistic evolutionist) accepts in his book on theistic evolution:
"genetic information encoded in the DNA of every microbe, plant, animal, and human could only come from an intelligent mind. It could not be produced by undirected natural processes"

Too bad for Wayne, then. Here's a prominent IDer, (Michael Denton) on Wayne's belief:

It is important to emphasize at the outset that the argument presented here is entirely consistent with the basic naturalistic assumption of modern science--that the cosmos is a seamless unity which can be comprehended in its entirety by human reason and in which all phenomena, including life and evolution and the origin of man, are ultimately explicable in terms of natural processes. This is an assumption which is entirely opposed to that of the so-called "special creationist school." According to special creationism, living organisms are not natural forms, whose origin and design were built into the laws of nature from the beginning, but rather contingent forms analogous in essence to human artifacts, the result of a series of supernatural acts, involving God's direct intervention in the course of nature, each of which involved the suspension of natural law. Contrary to the creationist position, the whole argument presented here is critically dependent on the presumption of the unbroken continuity of the organic world--that is, on the reality of organic evolution and on the presumption that all living organisms on earth are natural forms in the profoundest sense of the word, no less natural than salt crystals, atoms, waterfalls, or galaxies.

In large measure, therefore, the teleological argument presented here and the special creationist worldview are mutually exclusive accounts of the world. In the last analysis, evidence for one is evidence against the other. Put simply, the more convincing is the evidence for believing that the world is prefabricated to the end of life, that the design is built into the laws of nature, the less credible becomes the special creationist worldview.

Michael Denton, Nature's Destiny

Wayne's fallacy is in assuming that evolution is random. But as you would know, if you had taken my advice, Darwin's great discovery was that it isn't random. Darwin assumed it came from an intelligent mind, having attributed the origin of life to God

But the point is that even if it had not, evolution would still work the same way.

"Theistic evolution = matter + evolutionary factors (chance and necessity + mutation + selection + isolation + death) + very long time periods + God...In this system God is not the omnipotent Lord of all things...

Werner is fond of telling God how He must do things. For some reason, God hasn't responded to him. So creation continues, just as He created it to do. Including evolution, which we observe happing around us.

You have three choices.
1. Walk away and remain uninformed.
2. Do some reading and find out about it.
3. Hang around here and learn the hard way.

I'd pick 2, myself. But your choice.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

A perfect person does not sin. You've added "perfect" to God's word to make it more acceptable to you. He says His creation was "very good", not perfect. As you see, your version assumes God made a mistake and then had to find a way to fix it.

You make a fundamental error at the very beginning. God did not create a flawed world...he had no reason to create a world that was anything less than perfect. He designed that Adam should live forever along with the rest of this world.

Before Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they were made in Gods Image...in his image he made them male and female.

Sin did not exist on this earth until after Adam named the animals and after Eve was made out of him.

We as Christians all believe that prior to the fall of man, there was no sin. It is only sin that ruined perfection. Satan's aim after his own fall was to ruin what God created...ruin that perfection.

having said that, you can continue down the evolution pathway...it is a pathway that very few Christians travel and for good reason. It is up to you to discover that reason.

There is an overwhelming quantity of evidence against theistic evolution. I have zero interest in following your lead on this ridiculous assumption that is deeply flawed. When the bible says God created in six days, i believe that is exactly what he did.

To put your argument to the test however, would you mind showing me some laboratory tests showing evolution in a biological system that is functioning?

 

[hedrick]

Hey guys,

Please don't delete this thread - it's a genuine inquiry. I've recently been made aware of the sheer timeline of life on Earth, let alone the universe. Maybe you've seen this before, but this is a condensed version of life on Earth if it were a single year.
Earth’s Calendar Year - Biomimicry 3.8.

Jesus would have appeared somewhere in the last minute, 23:59. Someone argued to me that anthropocentrism makes us believe that the whole history of life on Earth, let alone the universe, is important to US. What about all the people before Jesus? What about all the animals for millions and millions of years before Jesus? What about the entirety of the universe for billions of years before humans? Was it all just for Jesus? It just doesn't make any sense to me anymore. Please help me reconcile these facts with my faith.

First, most of that time there were no humans. As far as we know, animals don't have the need to have a relationship with God.

So the real question is what about people before Jesus. I think Paul is pretty clear that Abraham was saved. There are lots of ways to understand that. The NT talks about Jesus in many ways, but one common way is to see him as the incarnation of Wisdom or the Word. While Jesus wasn't on earth until around 3 BC, the Word existed even before creation. So I don't think there's any theological problem with saying that God was available from the beginning.

The Trinity says that what we see in Jesus isn’t something that God came up with in 3 BC. Rather, Jesus shows us a side of God that was always there. While he only died in 30 AD (or so), that makes visible a sacrificial love that was always there.

Please don't reject the obviously great age of the Universe just because your theology can't accept it.

 

[Sheila Davis]

You did! (see below)

Now if that is a mistake, now is the time to correct it.

If it isn't a mistake???

View attachment 300847

Wrong again! I did not tell you I was Baptist!

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Wrong again! I did not tell you I was Baptist!

can i point out a really simple truth for you...and i am sorry but i cannot help but laugh as i write this as I am sure a number of other readers here will no doubt be doing at this moment...could you please go to your user profile page and change the part that says Faith = "BAPTIST" to what it is you really are!
Is it also false that you are divorced?

 

[The Barbarian]

You make a fundamental error at the very beginning. God did not create a flawed world...

God says it's very good. You revised His word in vain attempt to make it "perfect."

Before Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they were made in Gods Image...in his image he made them male and female.

Your error here is to assume that God has a physical body like the animals. As Jesus tell us, God is a spirit. And...
Luke 24:39 See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see: for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me to have.

So our "likeness" to God is in being living souls and having knowledge of good and evil, as God says:

Genesis 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

Sin did not exist on this earth until after Adam named the animals and after Eve was made out of him.

How do you figure that made him imperfect, or that he was perfect before. God never says that Adam was perfect. That is your revision of God's word.

having said that, you can continue down the evolution pathway..

You'll have to complain to God about that. I'm just observing what He does in this world.

There is an overwhelming quantity of evidence against theistic evolution.

But you can't show us any? How odd.

When the bible says God created in six days, i believe that is exactly what he did.

So you figure anything Jesus said in parables is not true? I see that you don't want to accept this His way, but the fact is, scripture itself tells you that the creation story is not a literal account. As early Christian noted, it would be logically absurd to have literal mornings and evenings without a sun.

To put your argument to the test however, would you mind showing me some laboratory tests showing evolution in a biological system that is functioning?

Of course I would do that. But just to avoid any displacement of goal posts, tell us what the definition of biological evolution is. We'll make sure everyone is on the right page, and then we'll go look. You're on.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

God says it's very good. You revised His word in vain attempt to make it "perfect."



Your error here is to assume that God has a physical body like the animals. As Jesus tell us, God is a spirit. And...
Luke 24:39 See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see: for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me to have.

So our "likeness" to God is in being living souls and having knowledge of good and evil, as God says:

Genesis 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.



How do you figure that made him imperfect, or that he was perfect before. God never says that Adam was perfect. That is your revision of God's word.



You'll have to complain to God about that. I'm just observing what He does in this world.



But you can't show us any? How odd.



So you figure anything Jesus said in parables is not true? I see that you don't want to accept this His way, but the fact is, scripture itself tells you that the creation story is not a literal account. As early Christian noted, it would be logically absurd to have literal mornings and evenings without a sun.



Of course I would do that. But just to avoid any displacement of goal posts, tell us what the definition of biological evolution is. We'll make sure everyone is on the right page, and then we'll go look. You're on.

I will stick with the view put forward by Stephen Myer and William Craig on this...both of whom i believe do not place credibility on the adequicy of theistic evolution in explaining our origins or existence. You appear to claim that the creationist view is not scientific, inline with many evolutionists who do not view creation as scientific, and yet at the same time you agree that theistic evolution is not scientific. That is a bandwagon jumper and i believe that is of itself, a self defeating view!

I believe God inspired Moses to write Genesis in literal days (as the Israelites clearly believed)for good reason, it is exactly how one would expect an omnipotent and all powerful creator to bring into existence our world and ourselves and, the 4th commandment reaffirms this truth clearly to me when God says in Exodus 31 in six days God created the earth and all that is in it, but on the Seventh day he rested.