Stalin's plan to conquer Europe

ThePhoenix

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cartridge said:
I'm going to give you some advise, try not to take it the wrong way... I suggest you leave this thread and dont return until you have done some reading into the subject because that post makes you look very uninformed.

Stalin was planning to attack, it was screamingly obvious.

Not to most credible historians.
Then why did he attack Sweden? Why did he agree to an annex so much territory during the war? Did Stalin want Europe? Perhaps not. But he certainly wanted a large section of it. How many soviet block countries were there in the USSR? Few were there willingly.

cartridge said:
Heck, he didn't annex half of Poland because he felt it would add a nice curve to the Russian border.

No he annexed half of Poland because he wanted the land, he did not want all of europe though, if he did I ask the question why did he not take it? Its not like anyone would or could have stopped him.
The American/British forces could of made a go at it. Remember, Hiroshima and Nagasaki occured shortly after Hitler fell. There's no real way to tell if Stalin might have continued the war after rebuilding his forces if the nuclear arms race had not begun.

cartridge said:
In fact I'd say that the fact that the Russians were deployed for an invasion is part of the reason the war went so badly

This is the reason I think you should spend more time in the library. The reason why the war went so badly was because Stalin had not finished his preperations for invasion, many of his men were unarmed. Great preperation for invasion unarmed men. Then we have the other simple fact that he had killed 9/10 of his generals, which is the real reason the war went badly at the the beginning, that and he had not completed his preperations.
Really? Figures I found are in line with what I remember:
4.7 million soviet soldiers
40 armored divisions
1500 tanks
138 infantry divisions
2000 combat aircraft
800 scout planes

http://www.euronet.nl/users/wilfried/ww2/ww2.htm

cartridge said:
Also note that they allowed the Germans to bog down in Stalingrad until they smashed them completely. If the British and the Americans hadn't invaded it is VERY unlikely that Stalin would have stopped at berlin.

They didn't stop at Berlin, Berlin is in eastern Germany. The US/GB actually air dropped supplies to the western side of Berlin, because the Russians would not allow them Road access.

Again I suggest you hit the books, because you really need to.
They effectively stopped at Berlin, because of the airdrop, and because even Stalin realized that his army was too tired to fight another war right on the back of the first one.

And personal assults are uncalled for, especially for someone who's figures are so far off.
 
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TScott

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The problem I have with all this is; so what? This is new; that Stalin wanted to make the world communist? It's ALWAYS been known that from the very beginning the Soviets knew that their communism could only survive long term if all the workers of the world united into one big happy commie family. The industrialists of the west saw the USSR as a threat, that is why they supported Hitler in the first place. Hitler got his money from a lot of western industrialist sources, including Henry Ford. They saw him as a pit bull that they could unleash on the Soviets and return 200 million Russians to the market place where they belonged.
Was the USSR really a threat in 1941? Sure they had the best tanks in the world, they just didn't know how to use them, in fact Stalin had killed off all the half way decent Generals in his army during the great purges. The leadership of the Soviet armies was a joke. They couldn't even beat tiny Finland on their first pass. When the Germans attacked in 1941 they steamrolled the Russians, not because of any strategicmobilization problems, but because their leaders were totally outclassed in modern warfare. They knew the Germans were coming, the communiques between STAVKA and the western front is a matter of record, and has been for decades.

Sure the USSR was seen as a potential threat to Europe in 1941, but we now know that in reality any of the western countries could have beaten off a Soviet attack. Heck, even the French or the Brits could have defeated Soviet aggression in 1941.

What is wrong here is that all of nutty "National Socialist" neo-Nazi organizations are using this stuff to make Hitler out to be the hero. Go look over the site I linked where Supreme Arbiter stole all his stuff from and see what I'm talking about.
 
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Borealis

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NiemandheißtBoshaftigkeit said:
To Borealis: I see your curiosity got the best of you as SA is no longer on your ignore list. :)

Yes, he is. I only know what he said because tscott quoted him. I haven't read anything posted by Supreme_Nobody since I said I was putting him back on the Ignore List. Curiosity is a fine thing, but there's nothing else he could say that would make me curious enough to read his filth any longer.
 
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ThePhoenix

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TScott said:
The problem I have with all this is; so what? This is new; that Stalin wanted to make the world communist? It's ALWAYS been known that from the very beginning the Soviets knew that their communism could only survive long term if all the workers of the world united into one big happy commie family. The industrialists of the west saw the USSR as a threat, that is why they supported Hitler in the first place. Hitler got his money from a lot of western industrialist sources, including Henry Ford. They saw him as a pit bull that they could unleash on the Soviets and return 200 million Russians to the market place where they belonged.
Was the USSR really a threat in 1941? Sure they had the best tanks in the world, they just didn't know how to use them, in fact Stalin had killed off all the half way decent Generals in his army during the great purges. The leadership of the Soviet armies was a joke. They couldn't even beat tiny Finland on their first pass. When the Germans attacked in 1941 they steamrolled the Russians, not because of any strategicmobilization problems, but because their leaders were totally outclassed in modern warfare. They knew the Germans were coming, the communiques between STAVKA and the western front is a matter of record, and has been for decades.

Sure the USSR was seen as a potential threat to Europe in 1941, but we now know that in reality any of the western countries could have beaten off a Soviet attack. Heck, even the French or the Brits could have defeated Soviet aggression in 1941.

What is wrong here is that all of nutty "National Socialist" neo-Nazi organizations are using this stuff to make Hitler out to be the hero. Go look over the site I linked where Supreme Arbiter stole all his stuff from and see what I'm talking about.
The fact that Stalin was an excreable strategist and killed most of his best generals did not change his intentions. It simple changed his ability to carry them out. Hitler wasn't the hero, he was simply a villain sharing the stage. Hitler was a complete loon, but that doesn't change the fact that Stalin was a psychopath.
 
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cartridge

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Then why did he attack Sweden?

Because he wanted to capture parts of western Europe... but that doesn't make his want to capture all of Europe. And to take one country as an example is stupid. Israel attacked Eygipt in 1967, did she want to capture all of the middle east. No.

Why did he agree to an annex so much territory during the war?

Well he had just captured it from the Germans, free territory, he just didn't give it back. If the Germans hadn't forced him to push west I doubt he would have done. Stalin was an oppertunist, not a planner.

Did Stalin want Europe? Perhaps not.

Now your getting it.

But he certainly wanted a large section of it.

Nope, rather he used the situations which arose to his advantage, which entirley fits his military and political profile. I doubt he had any definate plans.

The American/British forces could of made a go at it.

Good one, Britain was on its knee's after fighting with germany for 6 years, and America never made a large enough contribution to the war in Europe in the first place to have been in any position to have stoop up to the USSR.

Remember, Hiroshima and Nagasaki occured shortly after Hitler fell.

Actually it was over a whole quater of a year after the fall of Germany that the first bomb was dropped, more than enough time to have reached the Fench border, considering the size of the British/American/etc armiers in comparison to the Russians. Again you should read up on this stuff.

4.7 million soviet soldiers

Compaired to the 10 million casualties suffered by Russian forces by the end of the war 4.7 million really isn't very many. The red army was millions strong by the end of the war.

40 armored divisions
1500 tanks
138 infantry divisions
2000 combat aircraft
800 scout planes


Which ahnialated by the Germans, because they were rubbish, out of date and inneffective, and had no generals because Stalin had purged them all.

They effectively stopped at Berlin, because of the airdrop, and because even Stalin realized that his army was too tired to fight another war right on the back of the first one.

They stopped at Beril because that was all that was necessary to beat the Germans, Stalin hadn't cared about exhausting his army in the past, I'm posertive it would not have bothered him to do it again, especially as he was obviously never going to get a better crack at it.

And personal assults are uncalled for, especially for someone who's figures are so far off.

What truth hurt? Sorry but really you do need to revise your history. And may I point out that its not my figures which have been proved to be utter dog mess.
 
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TScott

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ThePhoenix said:
The fact that Stalin was an excreable strategist and killed most of his best generals did not change his intentions. It simple changed his ability to carry them out.
This isn't news, is it? But so what, when operation Barbarosa started the Soviet high command knew the attack was coming, and had known for some time; as long as it took for the Germans to mass for the attack. Their inability to react only illustraits how lame their army really was.
ThePhoenix said:
Hitler wasn't the hero, he was simply a villain sharing the stage. Hitler was a complete loon, but that doesn't change the fact that Stalin was a psychopath.
Psychopath? Again, this is news? Is someone arguing that Stalin was well balanced? Is anyone arguing that he was a true humanitarian and civil libertarian? The fact that he had a plan in place to invade Europe means nothing. In the 30s and 40s every country had what is called "war plans", plans that showed, on paper, the respective Military's plans on how to attack every country. As I said earlier, the Soviet desire for not only European, but world domination, has always been well known. For a long time.
 
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cartridge

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TScott said:
As I said earlier, the Soviet desire for not only European, but world domination, has always been well known. For a long time.

Actually no, Stalin believed in socialism in one country rather than international communism (contrary to Marx), so he was not really into european domination nevermind world domination, it was just not his ideaology. Thats what seperates him from a lot of socialists and communists, that and the fact was a raving lunatic who killed something in the region of 10-20 million people.
 
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ThePhoenix

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"Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach" Joseph Stalin
If that doesn't imply that he was all for taking Europe I don't know what would. He was the ultimate opportunist, but imagine if Hitler was bogged down in a war with Britain and America. Stalin would have overrun the rear lines in a flash if he thought he could get away with it. Maybe it wouldn't have been a direct invasion, but Stalin was the knife against Hitler's back, and Hitler was smart enough to know it.

Also Stalin could have overrun the British/American forces in Europe, but it was pretty obvious that Britain wasn't going to fall anytime soon, and his army was in no shape to fight a two front war, with some of their country still occupied (remember the Japanese?). Stalin wasn't crazy, and he knew there was no way to scramble troops to the Middle East fast enough to grab the oil wells (the critical point in the war). The Americans could have launched an invasion from North Africa or the coast of Europe. And Stalin still needed the Middle East's oil wells, he couldn't start a war without those firmly in his grasp. Even drawing up the plans for such an endevor and starting preliminary toop movements would have accounted for the lapse in the time between the Japanese surrender.

Also remember Stalin was an opportunist. Most people figured that the war would be a nasty, brutal island to island battle. Stalin probably wanted to fight after the Americans had spent five or ten years dying and cleaning off islands, were on the wrong side of the ocean, and were tired of war.
 
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cartridge

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ThePhoenix said:
"Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach" Joseph Stalin
If that doesn't imply that he was all for taking Europe I don't know what would. He was the ultimate opportunist, but imagine if Hitler was bogged down in a war with Britain and America. Stalin would have overrun the rear lines in a flash if he thought he could get away with it. Maybe it wouldn't have been a direct invasion, but Stalin was the knife against Hitler's back, and Hitler was smart enough to know it.

Also Stalin could have overrun the British/American forces in Europe, but it was pretty obvious that Britain wasn't going to fall anytime soon, and his army was in no shape to fight a two front war, with some of their country still occupied (remember the Japanese?). Stalin wasn't crazy, and he knew there was no way to scramble troops to the Middle East fast enough to grab the oil wells (the critical point in the war). The Americans could have launched an invasion from North Africa or the coast of Europe. And Stalin still needed the Middle East's oil wells, he couldn't start a war without those firmly in his grasp. Even drawing up the plans for such an endevor and starting preliminary toop movements would have accounted for the lapse in the time between the Japanese surrender.

Also remember Stalin was an opportunist. Most people figured that the war would be a nasty, brutal island to island battle. Stalin probably wanted to fight after the Americans had spent five or ten years dying and cleaning off islands, were on the wrong side of the ocean, and were tired of war.

Im getting tired of this argument, which you stand no chanse of winning.

"Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach" Joseph Stalin
If that doesn't imply that he was all for taking Europe I don't know what would.


It means nothing, because Stalin said a lot of stuff, and what he says in one quote is often contradicted in another. Not to mention you failed to show what context that quote was made in, he could have been discussing Hitlers invasion of Eastern Europe. No you will have to do far, far better than that.

He was the ultimate opportunist

Which contradicts the idea that he had a plan to conquer all of europe.

but imagine if Hitler was bogged down in a war with Britain and America.

You dont get it do you? Stalin and the USSR had just defeated the hugley powerful Germany practically single handedly, and had crushed Germanys armies long before any allied offesive into europe. Britain and America were small beer compaired to the Germans, Stalin could have brushed them aside, and had T34's rolling through Paris by August if he had wanted to. Britain was near dead from years of blockade and America was never going to involve its self in a war it could never win.


but it was pretty obvious that Britain wasn't going to fall anytime soon,

What are you chatting about? We were on rations for years after the war, and our economy was dead, we had lost our empire and our highly trained but small army had been destroyed 5 years earlier, all we had was conscripted under trained troops who would have been slaughtered by the Red Army in weeks. The British would not have been expecting it and not perpaired for it, and would have been wiped out in weeks if not days.

and his army was in no shape to fight a two front war,

By this time Japan was already in full retreat and posed almost no threat.

Stalin wasn't crazy,

Umm yes he was... he was a raving lunatic, who killed off half his family because he thought they were plotting against him.


Stalin wasn't crazy, and he knew there was no way to scramble troops to the Middle East fast enough to grab the oil wells (the critical point in the war).

But we are talking about European domination, and now your chatting about the middle east, make your mind up, where is Stalin supposted to have been planning to take over now?

The Americans could have launched an invasion from North Africa or the coast of Europe.

With what? The USA's involvment in the war was minimal, I realise that Western history teachers like to exagurate western involvment, but please do not be taken in by it.

And Stalin still needed the Middle East's oil wells, he couldn't start a war without those firmly in his grasp.

Well he'd just managed for the past 6 years OK, using his own Oil reserves, I doubt he would need middle eastern Oil to continue his offensive.

Even drawing up the plans for such an endevor and starting preliminary toop movements would have accounted for the lapse in the time between the Japanese surrender.

Good one, the troops and armies were already mobalised at the East-West border, which negates the need for troop movment, the need for invading the middle east did not exist, and it does not take 3 months to plan a spontanious invasion, hense the reason they call it spontanious. Did you know that Wellington and Blucher planned the march on Paris Following Waterloo in an afternoon at the pup La Belle Alliance (admittedly much planning took place during the campain by letter)? I doubt Stalins remaining generals could have pulled it off in an afternoon but a few weeks certainly.

Also remember Stalin was an opportunist. Most people figured that the war would be a nasty, brutal island to island battle.

Why would that have bothered Stalin? He only Declared war on japan after the fall of Hitler, the Japaneese problem was nne existant had he not wanted it to be.

Stalin probably wanted to fight after the Americans had spent five or ten years dying and cleaning off islands

Like the west did to Russia in the eastern European war?
 
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Milla

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This is hilarious. Stalin was crazy but Stalin was also realistic about how the world worked. You can see in so many of his actions that he was savvy. Don't think I'm supporting him; I'm not. But he was not foolish. You do not become dictator and hold that power until your (fairly possibly) natural death by being an idiot. The Red Army was in disrepair and the industrialization barely off the ground. Maybe given another 20 years in power Stalin might have gone after more of Europe, but at the time of WWII there was just no way. Sure he might have took some ground, but he could never have held it and I can't imagine that he would not have realised that.
 
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rglencheek

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I dont think Stalin thought the Soviet Union would be prepared for a major war for another decade or so.

His deploying so many troops in a forward position against Germany was more due to his poor sense of command and his lack of trust in his crappy forces.

His concerns were justified, entirely.
 
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Milla

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rglencheek said:
I dont think Stalin thought the Soviet Union would be prepared for a major war for another decade or so.

His deploying so many troops in a forward position against Germany was more due to his poor sense of command and his lack of trust in his crappy forces.

His concerns were justified, entirely.
No kidding. USSR did not even have enough bullets to fight a war. And considering the USSR had been invaded by half of Europe by that point (including Allies, I may remind you) it was right to worry about invasion from Europe. Buildup in the West was a natural reaction.
 
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oldrooster

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That guy was on crack, Stalin was sending extra to Hitler in hopes that they would not attack. After the great purge and the fiasco in Finland it could not have even been attempted. Sounds like somebody wants to sell some books.
 
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