Stain of sin vs Guilt of sin . . .

[ArmyMatt]

All in all, a perfect example of the hospitality and the run-around often displayed on this forum. I should have known better to engage. And I often wonder if that's not the point. In fact I quite suspect it is.

it’s not a run around. I don’t do people’s homework for them, especially stuff that they can do themselves. I am not going to answer something a quick google search can do.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I mean when I asked about hymns and prayers (and we can add homilies), not even one from the Roman Catholic side was given.

 

[prodromos]

All in all, a perfect example of the hospitality and the run-around often displayed on this forum. I should have known better to engage. And I often wonder if that's not the point. In fact I quite suspect it is.

LOL, whereas a recent thread in OBOB has been deleted completely. Your forum is soooo hospitable.

 

[abacabb3]

So since you believe that Mary died does that mean that you believe she sinned?

That also seems to be in conflict with what you said above that you do not believe that the only thing that can affect a person's physical nature is their spiritual nature.

1. The Theotokos died due to original sin
2. Even then, she had completely undid even this sin in herself by her righteousness and she voluntarily gave up her soul to God her Son.

 

[abacabb3]

Working on becoming Orthodox and this one issue keeps popping up in discussions I am having. As Orthodox, we reject the idea of the "Immaculate Conception." My understanding is that there was no need for this because the idea of an individual bearing the guilt of Adam's sin is wrong. However, we do bear the consequences of what he did . . . which is primarily sin.

So - here goes.

1. What is meant (as you understand it) by the "Stain of Sin." RC apologists insist that the IC was necessary because Mary would have inherited the stain of sin. Do you know what they are talking about?

2. There is also the idea that without the IC, Mary would have inherited a broken human nature which was subject to choosing sin. Was Mary's nature in some way affected by the fall in the Garden?

3. How is the stain of sin different from the guilt of sin? I'm not sure I can put an accurate definition of the two in contrast to each other, so I am looking for help.

Any further definition of our opposition to the IC will also be appreciated.

Thank you

Would you be interested in a more scholarly article on this question. A Romanian journal has a recent article in English that defines original sin, how it works, and how it relates to the Theotokos.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Would you be interested in a more scholarly article on this question. A Romanian journal has a recent article in English that defines original sin, how it works, and how it relates to the Theotokos.

speaking for myself, I sure would be.

 

[abacabb3]

speaking for myself, I sure would be.

Sure, it is the first article here: https://www.revistateologica.ro/wp-content/uploads/RT-4-2021.pdf

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sure, it is the first article here: https://www.revistateologica.ro/wp-content/uploads/RT-4-2021.pdf

thanks!

 

[abacabb3]

thanks!

The article delineates how original sin works (the connection between the passions and corruptibility/death) and applies this as a way to understand the Theotokos (her susceptibility to passions, but her mastery over them and death). The article does not touch upon St Gregory Palamas' homily on her presentation in the temple. All the same stuff is unpacked by Saint Gregory. I think too often we try to understand the Church's doctrines according to those who are not Orthodox. I think the OP would avoid a lot of confusion by simply taking the saints at their word.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The article delineates how original sin works (the connection between the passions and corruptibility/death) and applies this as a way to understand the Theotokos (her susceptibility to passions, but her mastery over them and death). The article does not touch upon St Gregory Palamas' homily on her presentation in the temple. All the same stuff is unpacked by Saint Gregory. I think too often we try to understand the Church's doctrines according to those who are not Orthodox. I think the OP would avoid a lot of confusion by simply taking the saints at their word.

I have St Gregory’s homily on her Presentation, so thanks again.

 

[abacabb3]

I have St Gregory’s homily on her Presentation, so thanks again.

Venamin's book i see, i am sure your read that homily then. Pretty much answers everything.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Venamin's book i see, i am sure your read that homily then. Pretty much answers everything.

yep, Mt Thabor makes good stuff