Staff/members discussion thread (report free)

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I am not all that familiar with the history of the Lutheran forums on CF, so I am only speaking in general terms, but if the traffic isn't as high as desired in the three different forums, it seems on a surface level to make sense to merge them all together. Even if it prompts some debates or arguments, as long as they are civil and don't get into attacks on individual people or debasement of people's faiths, those spirited discussions could be one aspect of what might help revitalize the Lutheran area of the forum.

Another more radical possibility would be to merge the Lutheran area with the Anglican area. In the United States, the Episcopal Church (Anglican) and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (Largest US Lutheran denomination) have an ecumenical agreement that allows them to exchange priests and pastors and all sorts of other things. Though not explicitly done because of declining membership numbers, that does seem like it was part of the thinking- about how areas with, say, a struggling Episcopalian parish and a struggling Lutheran congregation might be able to survive by sharing clergy, church buildings, or even merging. Maybe the same thing applies to a forum that's not getting much traffic.

Anglicans and Lutherans do share a lot in common- liturgically precise services, liturgical seasons (i.e. Lent, etc.), infant baptism, confirmation (Though it means somewhat different things to each group), weekly communion, real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, etc.. You even have some Anglicans and Lutherans who embrace female clergy and homosexual clergy, and others who vigorously oppose those things.

Just a thought. Maybe it's not a viable one. I'm just putting it out there.

There in lies one of the great issues in Lutheranism. The confessional Churches are not in fellowship with Anglicans, or the Liberal Synods who are. The Confessional Synods do not embrace many of the things that you have listed other than their view of the Eucharist.

I would strongly oppose merging in the interest of peace.

 

[Resha Caner]

I'm hoping that if the number of forums is reduced, the rules will allow more diversity. Currently there tends to be a division whereby people can raise challenges in one part of a forum, but those who just want to chat among themselves can retreat to another part of the forum.

So, the Lutheran forum will need to decide what it wants to be. Is it just a place for "true" Lutherans to discuss their favorite brand of beer or will it allow pagans to come in and stomp about.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I'm hoping that if the number of forums is reduced, the rules will allow more diversity. Currently there tends to be a division whereby people can raise challenges in one part of a forum, but those who just want to chat among themselves can retreat to another part of the forum.

So, the Lutheran forum will need to decide what it wants to be. Is it just a place for "true" Lutherans to discuss their favorite brand of beer or will it allow pagans to come in and stomp about.

we've always been welcoming of respectful visitors, but when it comes to people stomping around, that's not so tolerated here. Oddly enough, we're one of the more open forums around the CF Congregational area.

 

[Resha Caner]

we've always been welcoming of respectful visitors, but when it comes to people stomping around, that's not so tolerated here. Oddly enough, we're one of the more open forums around the CF Congregational area.

The level of respect depends on which individual responds. With that said, I felt more welcome in the Orthodox forum than I did here when I first joined.

But my point would be it's difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. You can write the rules to allow throwing out the unpleasant ones, and in the process throw the baby out with the bathwater. Or you can allow the weeds to grow so you don't uproot the grain. Pardon my (intentional) overuse of idiom.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

The level of respect depends on which individual responds. With that said, I felt more welcome in the Orthodox forum than I did here when I first joined.

But my point would be it's difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. You can write the rules to allow throwing out the unpleasant ones, and in the process throw the baby out with the bathwater. Or you can allow the weeds to grow so you don't uproot the grain. Pardon my (intentional) overuse of idiom.

It also depends on how the visitor makes their appearance. I don't really remember your circumstances, but I know of some "visitors" who only wished to sow discord or show disrespect in the guise of debate/questioning. Those types aren't going to get the respect of long-time members here.

We've been burned more than a few times by these types of people, so understandably, people tend to be somewhat leery of guests.

I think CF does a very good job of keeping the congregational forums a "safe haven" for each denomination. As I said, we're a bit more open and tolerant than some of the denoms, but the rules sort of let staff figure that out. You as members can help us with that as well by reporting clear violations.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

When I first came to this forum, nearly 10 years ago, I was exploring Lutheranism and had a LOT of questions - all sincere but it COULD be some odd.

SOME here were VERY embracing, kind and as helpful as they could be. Some of those are still here! They were treasured.

SOME here were VERY rude, condemning, hurtful, even flaming (the flaming often in PM's) - and this did eventually cause me to leave this forum for awhile. Only one of which is still around.

I don't think my post made the difference since the identical post was responded to in those radically different ways.

IF this forum had been a church, a congregation - I would have exited the building strongly thinking "never again! Never a Lutheran church again!" In spite of the several who were kind.


Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[Edial]

When I first came to this forum, nearly 10 years ago, I was exploring Lutheranism and had a LOT of questions - all sincere but it COULD be some odd.

SOME here were VERY embracing, kind and as helpful as they could be. Some of those are still here! They were treasured.

SOME here were VERY rude, condemning, hurtful, even flaming (the flaming often in PM's) - and this did eventually cause me to leave this forum for awhile. Only one of which is still around.

I don't think my post made the difference since the identical post was responded to in those radically different ways.

IF this forum had been a church, a congregation - I would have exited the building strongly thinking "never again! Never a Lutheran church again!" In spite of the several who were kind.


Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

PM flames are something that appear to be more hurtful than public flames. More personal.
Maybe we should have some type of elected reps from this forum who would keep contact with staff concerning certain individuals who just seem to hurt everyone they meet?

 

[Edial]

The level of respect depends on which individual responds. With that said, I felt more welcome in the Orthodox forum than I did here when I first joined.

But my point would be it's difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. You can write the rules to allow throwing out the unpleasant ones, and in the process throw the baby out with the bathwater. Or you can allow the weeds to grow so you don't uproot the grain. Pardon my (intentional) overuse of idiom.

It really depends on questions one has or sensitivity level some of the Lutherans are at that time.

But we do need to remember that Lutherans are known for fellowship and welcoming spirit. So we should not forget this part.

Point well taken.

 

[Edial]

I am not all that familiar with the history of the Lutheran forums on CF, so I am only speaking in general terms, but if the traffic isn't as high as desired in the three different forums, it seems on a surface level to make sense to merge them all together. Even if it prompts some debates or arguments, as long as they are civil and don't get into attacks on individual people or debasement of people's faiths, those spirited discussions could be one aspect of what might help revitalize the Lutheran area of the forum.

Spirited theological discussions was what made this forum great. Communion, Baptism, Bible ... things like that.

I used to wait for the next opportunity to log on and see what DaRev or Radman responded to me.

It was SO great that 8 or us actually met in St.Louis for a long weekend. And we were all from different synods and never seen each other before. It took about 9 months to plan, entire forum participated helping to pick eating places and places to visit, and we met.

What united us all? We had bible based debates.

Another more radical possibility would be to merge the Lutheran area with the Anglican area. In the United States, the Episcopal Church (Anglican) and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (Largest US Lutheran denomination) have an ecumenical agreement that allows them to exchange priests and pastors and all sorts of other things. Though not explicitly done because of declining membership numbers, that does seem like it was part of the thinking- about how areas with, say, a struggling Episcopalian parish and a struggling Lutheran congregation might be able to survive by sharing clergy, church buildings, or even merging. Maybe the same thing applies to a forum that's not getting much traffic.

Anglicans and Lutherans do share a lot in common- liturgically precise services, liturgical seasons (i.e. Lent, etc.), infant baptism, confirmation (Though it means somewhat different things to each group), weekly communion, real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, etc.. You even have some Anglicans and Lutherans who embrace female clergy and homosexual clergy, and others who vigorously oppose those things.

Just a thought. Maybe it's not a viable one. I'm just putting it out there.

A Liberal vs Conservative/Moderate is a huge division in Lutherandom.
And I mean, it is huge.
Homosexual clergy topic is at the center of the division.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Resha Caner]

But we do need to remember that Lutherans are known for fellowship and welcoming spirit.

Such things are certainly relative to both the visitor and the Lutheran congregation visited. But I'm not sure where the idea comes from that Lutherans are known for fellowship and a warm welcome. Maybe Lutherans think that of themselves, but what do visitors actually say?

With respect to the German culture attached to Lutherans - Germans are not known for being warm and welcoming. My experience in Germany was that people are very loving toward family and friends, but very reserved and short with strangers ... and most I talk to say the same thing. In fact, my German relative's employer (born & bred German) required sensitivity training for employees dealing with other nationalities because of the impression that Germans are rude.

As for the Scandanavian branches of the church, I couldn't say.

My family attended a Methodist church when I was young, and we switched when I was about 12. One reason for leaving that particular Methodist church was that it was too friendly. It was all about potlucks and celebrations and nothing about theology - so everyone felt welcome, but the downside was the enabling of sin. Regardless, I noticed a marked difference between the "friendliness" of leaving the Methodists and joining the Lutherans. No LCMS church that I've been at since has ever been a good example of what I would consider a community. Granted there are many Lutherans with a huge heart (and maybe that huge heart describes everyone here at CF), but as a whole - not so much.

The same can be said of my history studies on the Lutheran church in America. Americans have historically viewed Lutherans with suspicion and consider them a very closed society. Issues such as close communion are a real sore point. My own son is on the verge of leaving the Lutheran church, and his cited reason is that it's dry, boring, and unfriendly. He says he feels much more welcomed at other churches.

I love Confessional Lutheranism for many reasons, but "friendliness" never entered my mind as a feature.

- - -

In my particular case, I find it extremely difficult to ask challenging questions about Lutheranism without being called a heretic. I've never looked to overturn Lutheran theology. I just wanted to know more than what you get from the "Sunday School" answers.

 

[Edial]

Such things are certainly relative to both the visitor and the Lutheran congregation visited. But I'm not sure where the idea comes from that Lutherans are known for fellowship and a warm welcome. Maybe Lutherans think that of themselves, but what do visitors actually say?

With respect to the German culture attached to Lutherans - Germans are not known for being warm and welcoming. My experience in Germany was that people are very loving toward family and friends, but very reserved and short with strangers ... and most I talk to say the same thing. In fact, my German relative's employer (born & bred German) required sensitivity training for employees dealing with other nationalities because of the impression that Germans are rude.

As for the Scandanavian branches of the church, I couldn't say.

My family attended a Methodist church when I was young, and we switched when I was about 12. One reason for leaving that particular Methodist church was that it was too friendly. It was all about potlucks and celebrations and nothing about theology - so everyone felt welcome, but the downside was the enabling of sin. Regardless, I noticed a marked difference between the "friendliness" of leaving the Methodists and joining the Lutherans. No LCMS church that I've been at since has ever been a good example of what I would consider a community. Granted there are many Lutherans with a huge heart (and maybe that huge heart describes everyone here at CF), but as a whole - not so much.

The same can be said of my history studies on the Lutheran church in America. Americans have historically viewed Lutherans with suspicion and consider them a very closed society. Issues such as close communion are a real sore point. My own son is on the verge of leaving the Lutheran church, and his cited reason is that it's dry, boring, and unfriendly. He says he feels much more welcomed at other churches.

I love Confessional Lutheranism for many reasons, but "friendliness" never entered my mind as a feature.

- - -

In my particular case, I find it extremely difficult to ask challenging questions about Lutheranism without being called a heretic. I've never looked to overturn Lutheran theology. I just wanted to know more than what you get from the "Sunday School" answers.

Maybe you are right.
In my experience Germans always played a positive influence in my life.
Oh well.

Because no one really likes the Lutherans, we do get a bit paranoid.
Baptists think we are Catholics and Catholics think we are heretics.
So we do get defensive at times.

I found that friendliness and warmth sometimes is leaving the most conservative congregations yet is present in the liberal ones.
And there is a flip side between the two concerning the theological truth.

I am a moderate Lutheran and I think it is, at this time, a good balance between having a welcoming spirit and theological truth.

Balance is a very important thing.

 

[ContraMundum]

we've always been welcoming of respectful visitors, but when it comes to people stomping around, that's not so tolerated here. Oddly enough, we're one of the more open forums around the CF Congregational area.

I hate to say it but that's not been the experience of a lot of visitors. There was a time I got lots of pm's about how poorly visitors were treated here. (I used to be a mod ages ago, if you don't remember)

I think the issue is what constitutes in a posters mind a "respectful visitor". I've seen well educated, honest people come here and get slammed for asking tough but fair questions. The kind of questions that would be handled well in other forums.

However I think things have improved immensely and I enjoy reading the forum more now.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I hate to say it but that's not been the experience of a lot of visitors. There was a time I got lots of pm's about how poorly visitors were treated here. (I used to be a mod ages ago, if you don't remember)

I think the issue is what constitutes in a posters mind a "respectful visitor". I've seen well educated, honest people come here and get slammed for asking tough but fair questions. The kind of questions that would be handled well in other forums.

However I think things have improved immensely and I enjoy reading the forum more now.

I was a mod, too, Contra, way back when, just like I am now.

Let's just say it's rather ironic, you posting this here, and we'll leave it at that. Surely you don't want to open that can of worms.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I was treated both warmly and with hate and flames.

When I was on staff here (MANY years ago!), I was one of 4 supervisors for all the congregational forums. This one had the reputation for being one of two that were the worse, of of two where we had a LOT of complaints. It was mean here. I TRIED to intervene but there was a poster that so attacked me that I told staff that my mere presence seemed to make things worse and I had to bow out.

One of newest staffers was Jim (Jim47) who was assigned here and did AMAZING work here (my hat still goes out to him). A real life Barnabas. But peace was achieved - in part with the split subforums, in part with a few leaving, in part because this forum became pretty inactive and because Jim worked HARD to bring some sense of community and respect. But for all the years since, this has been a rather quiet forum (and the less conservative Lutherans have - for the most part - not returned), it seems to me (I've been mostly away for 2 1/2 years so perhaps that changed in my absence).

THAT said, there were always some GREAT folks here! Some go all the way back to those days. I was very young, spiritually troubled, struggling to find a new home after a very painful departure from Catholicism. I was interested in Lutheranism and this was a place I came to for my QUESTIONS (and God knows I had a lot of them). SOME here were kind and as helpful as they could be (some are still here). SOME shot off PM's to my about how I was "egotistical" and "childish - immature", how I thought I had a "big head" and that I wanted to play "mind games" because I thought myself "too smart for Lutherans" - and those were the kinder things. Rarely were things posted, it was mostly PM's. For nearly 10 years, one of them has followed me around, interjecting wherever possible, to accuse me, attack me, generally cause problems for me - YEARS after those (I admit difficult) threads I started TRYING to figure things out.

But I was not chased off. In those early days, there were folks trying to help me and answer me. And I treasured their help. Eventually, I was confirmed in the Lutheran church. Today, I'm VERY actively involved in my LCMS parish. This forum had a significant role in why I ended up Lutheran. BUT, in fairness, I must say - my (legendary) persistence and tenacity caused me to work around the flames and hurtful stuff. Any "normal" young man would have said "______ you!" and leave (as instructed to do). My tenacity got me through it.

Yes, things are (understandably) quiet now. Most CF forums are these days (I have my own passionate beliefs as to what largely killed this once amazing site, but let's not go there). I sense that people here do NOT want this forum to be the hateful place it once was - and that's the most important thing: desire, intent. And as I witness discussions since my return a few weeks ago, that's being cranked out: there DOES seem to be a respectful, loving milieu (although the topics have been rather meek and benign). As people feel safe enough, more threads will be posted here - and each will be a "test" as to how this community now exists and behaves.


Sorry.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[Lizabth]

"Let's just say it's rather ironic, you posting this here, and we'll leave it at that. Surely you don't want to open that can of worms."

This is a perfect example of the lack of friendliness and respect to which Contra is likely referring. It's grudge-y, threatening and snotty.

I have really enjoyed and was helped by some of the older gents' responses as I've been reading here. They managed to be well-tempered and resolute. One of the ladies, too, really has a kindly spirit while contending for her views.

 

[Edial]

I was treated both warmly and with hate and flames.

When I was on staff here (MANY years ago!), I was one of 4 supervisors for all the congregational forums. This one had the reputation for being one of two that were the worse, of of two where we had a LOT of complaints. It was mean here. I TRIED to intervene but there was a poster that so attacked me that I told staff that my mere presence seemed to make things worse and I had to bow out.

One of newest staffers was Jim (Jim47) who was assigned here and did AMAZING work here (my hat still goes out to him). A real life Barnabas. But peace was achieved - in part with the split subforums, in part with a few leaving, in part because this forum became pretty inactive and because Jim worked HARD to bring some sense of community and respect. But for all the years since, this has been a rather quiet forum (and the less conservative Lutherans have - for the most part - not returned), it seems to me (I've been mostly away for 2 1/2 years so perhaps that changed in my absence).

THAT said, there were always some GREAT folks here! Some go all the way back to those days. I was very young, spiritually troubled, struggling to find a new home after a very painful departure from Catholicism. I was interested in Lutheranism and this was a place I came to for my QUESTIONS (and God knows I had a lot of them). SOME here were kind and as helpful as they could be (some are still here). SOME shot off PM's to my about how I was "egotistical" and "childish - immature", how I thought I had a "big head" and that I wanted to play "mind games" because I thought myself "too smart for Lutherans" - and those were the kinder things. Rarely were things posted, it was mostly PM's. For nearly 10 years, one of them has followed me around, interjecting wherever possible, to accuse me, attack me, generally cause problems for me - YEARS after those (I admit difficult) threads I started TRYING to figure things out.

But I was not chased off. In those early days, there were folks trying to help me and answer me. And I treasured their help. Eventually, I was confirmed in the Lutheran church. Today, I'm VERY actively involved in my LCMS parish. This forum had a significant role in why I ended up Lutheran. BUT, in fairness, I must say - my (legendary) persistence and tenacity caused me to work around the flames and hurtful stuff. Any "normal" young man would have said "______ you!" and leave (as instructed to do). My tenacity got me through it.

Yes, things are (understandably) quiet now. Most CF forums are these days (I have my own passionate beliefs as to what largely killed this once amazing site, but let's not go there). I sense that people here do NOT want this forum to be the hateful place it once was - and that's the most important thing: desire, intent. And as I witness discussions since my return a few weeks ago, that's being cranked out: there DOES seem to be a respectful, loving milieu (although the topics have been rather meek and benign). As people feel safe enough, more threads will be posted here - and each will be a "test" as to how this community now exists and behaves.


Sorry.


Pax


- Josiah

I could never understand why some people had some issues with you back then.
I REALLY liked you and was amazed how bright some young people are.
You had great questions. The only thing was, you were killing threads with walls of words.

 

[ContraMundum]

I was a mod, too, Contra, way back when, just like I am now.

Let's just say it's rather ironic, you posting this here, and we'll leave it at that. Surely you don't want to open that can of worms.

Gasp...did this just about validate what I said?

Let's say that was rather dismissive, and not what I would expect from a mod on this thread...and we'll leave it at that. Surely you don't want to open that can of worms.

 

[ContraMundum]

"Let's just say it's rather ironic, you posting this here, and we'll leave it at that. Surely you don't want to open that can of worms."

This is a perfect example of the lack of friendliness and respect to which Contra is likely referring. It's grudge-y, threatening and snotty.

I have really enjoyed and was helped by some of the older gents' responses as I've been reading here. They managed to be well-tempered and resolute. One of the ladies, too, really has a kindly spirit while contending for her views.

Yep and yep.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Gasp...did this just about validate what I said?

Let's say that was rather dismissive, and not what I would expect from a mod on this thread...and we'll leave it at that. Surely you don't want to open that can of worms.

Oh I'm not afraid to open your can of worms. Because I stand resolute here. You, however, have a history of getting in trouble here because of your incessant need to argue, same with the poster you also cyber high-fived.

It does not surprise me, then, that you guys would complain about how you've been treated.

You are a perfect example of why members in TCL are leery of people asking "questions". I post this as a member of this forum.

 

[Edial]

Oh I'm not afraid to open your can of worms. Because I stand resolute here. You, however, have a history of getting in trouble here because of your incessant need to argue, same with the poster you also cyber high-fived.

It does not surprise me, then, that you guys would complain about how you've been treated.

You are a perfect example of why members in TCL are leery of people asking "questions". I post this as a member of this forum.

From what I recall, Contra never asked "anti-Lutheran" questions.
As a matter of fact, when I was just fresh convert to Lutheranism and was asking questions here at TCL, I was kind of disappointed because no one really explained. They argued against me.
Contra was the one who explained to me certain aspects of Lutheran faith that I never got from anyone here. We did this via PMs.
He understood the problems I was having.
For which I am grateful to God.