Staff/members discussion thread (report free)

[PreachersWife2004]

From what I recall, Contra never asked "anti-Lutheran" questions.
As a matter of fact, when I was just fresh convert to Lutheranism and was asking questions here at TCL, I was kind of disappointed because no one really explained. They argued against me.
Contra was the one who explained to me certain aspects of Lutheran faith that I never got from anyone here. We did this via PMs.
He understood the problems I was having.
For which I am grateful to God.

You're missing a good chunk of history then, Ed.

And I didn't say anything about "anti-Lutheran questions", either.

It's so nice that reports are kept confidential, isn't it? Otherwise it would be very easy to prove my point.

And now, I will bow out of this gracefully. You may have started this thread with a good intent, Ed, but it's basically turned into a "we're going to bash the big ole mean Lutherans who crap on anyone who want to know things" thread. I've been a member here a LONG time, and I've seen people come and go through this forum, and it is BY FAR the best forum as far as allowing people to come in and be open with their criticism, but there comes a point in time when people don't like guests insulting them, over and over and over.

There is a difference between wanting honest knowledge, and picking a fight. You come into my house and you are respectful, great. You come into my house and you start belittling me, not so great. That is how I look at what has transpired over the years here. I see the people here moaning and complaining about how they were first treated when they got here - tell me, have you gone back and looked at what you wrote? How you wrote it? How your attitude comes off?

Because if you haven't, I suggest you do. It might open your eyes a bit to how things have progressed around here.

 

[Tigger45]

I absolutely disagree. I'm a Lutheran but don't both bother using the Lutheran faith icon due to how I've been treated here. And some of those forum bullies have already posted within this thread. And I call them bullies not only by how a negative poster would reply to me but when you try to defend yourself a specific group of them would then jump it and team up on you. This not only has happened to me more than once but I've wittnesses several times it happening to other posters.

 

[Edial]

You're missing a good chunk of history then, Ed.

And I didn't say anything about "anti-Lutheran questions", either.

It's so nice that reports are kept confidential, isn't it? Otherwise it would be very easy to prove my point.

And now, I will bow out of this gracefully. You may have started this thread with a good intent, Ed, but it's basically turned into a "we're going to bash the big ole mean Lutherans who crap on anyone who want to know things" thread. I've been a member here a LONG time, and I've seen people come and go through this forum, and it is BY FAR the best forum as far as allowing people to come in and be open with their criticism, but there comes a point in time when people don't like guests insulting them, over and over and over.

There is a difference between wanting honest knowledge, and picking a fight. You come into my house and you are respectful, great. You come into my house and you start belittling me, not so great. That is how I look at what has transpired over the years here. I see the people here moaning and complaining about how they were first treated when they got here - tell me, have you gone back and looked at what you wrote? How you wrote it? How your attitude comes off?

Because if you haven't, I suggest you do. It might open your eyes a bit to how things have progressed around here.

OK, but the fact is this forum is really thinning out.

I am certain that certain guests weren't really that respectful.

However, perhaps we too need to re-evaluate ourselves.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

I absolutely disagree. I'm a Lutheran but don't both bother using the Lutheran faith icon due to how I've been treated here. And some of those forum bullies have already posted within this thread. And I call them bullies not only by how a negative poster would reply to me but when you try to defend yourself a specific group of them would then jump it and team up on you. This not only has happened to me more than once but I've wittnesses several times it happening to other posters.

Maybe we should not get that direct in this thread?
Apparently memories do run deep.

Forums are like tides.
Certain people and the dynamics come and then they go.

At this time many from the old group are no longer here. Some would come back and some would never come back.

The old TCL was tough, yes. I remember it well.
However there was also an incredible vibrancy to it. We actually MET, 8-9 of us met in St.Louis for a long weekend. And we had a GREAT time.
Think about it.
This was never done before.

Yet, you needed to "earn" your stripes in that environment. And this is not necessarily what most of the posters were looking for.

Let's see what the new tide brings, Lord willing.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Maybe we should not get that direct in this thread?
Apparently memories do run deep.

Forums are like tides.
Certain people and the dynamics come and then they go.

At this time many from the old group are no longer here. Some would come back and some would never come back.

The old TCL was tough, yes. I remember it well.
However there was also an incredible vibrancy to it. We actually MET, 8-9 of us met in St.Louis for a long weekend. And we had a GREAT time.
Think about it.
This was never done before.

Yet, you needed to "earn" your stripes in that environment. And this is not necessarily what most of the posters were looking for.

Let's see what the new tide brings, Lord willing.

Thanks,
Ed

There was indeed much good to be said about the "lively" nature of TCL back in the day (I was here for most of it, and I do remember regretting that I could not join everyone for that gathering). I still can not forget the strife that there was between some members of the Confessional Synods and the liberal Synods; nor will I forget the strife between members of the various synods in the Confessional Forum either; and the way these tensions spilled over into the shared forum.

We can deal with the odd disrespectful visitor, but when we fight amongst our selves, no one wants to visit.

 

[Tigger45]

Maybe we should not get that direct in this thread?
Apparently memories do run deep.

Forums are like tides.
Certain people and the dynamics come and then they go.

At this time many from the old group are no longer here. Some would come back and some would never come back.

The old TCL was tough, yes. I remember it well.
However there was also an incredible vibrancy to it. We actually MET, 8-9 of us met in St.Louis for a long weekend. And we had a GREAT time.
Think about it.
This was never done before.

Yet, you needed to "earn" your stripes in that environment. And this is not necessarily what most of the posters were looking for.

Let's see what the new tide brings, Lord willing.

Thanks,
Ed

I understand, respect and share your vision for TCL.

The more I learn about Lutheranism the more I want to learn. In fact there are several well spoken members here that when the dialog is mature and respectful could go along way in helping others advance in their understanding of Lutheranism. Taking into account that on forums you're always going to have the occasional troll and even within the ranks of the members personality conflicts but it could become the 'norm' where we have constructive conversations.

 

[Edial]

There was indeed much good to be said about the "lively" nature of TCL back in the day (I was here for most of it, and I do remember regretting that I could not join everyone for that gathering). I still can not forget the strife that there was between some members of the Confessional Synods and the liberal Synods; nor will I forget the strife between members of the various synods in the Confessional Forum either; and the way these tensions spilled over into the shared forum.

We can deal with the odd disrespectful visitor, but when we fight amongst our selves, no one wants to visit.

...

 

[Edial]

I understand, respect and share your vision for TCL.

The more I learn about Lutheranism the more I want to learn. In fact there are several well spoken members here that when the dialog is mature and respectful could go along way in helping others advance in their understanding of Lutheranism. Taking into account that on forums you're always going to have the occasional troll and even within the ranks of the members personality conflicts but it could become the 'norm' where we have constructive conversations.

The very design, the breakdown within the Lutheranism from extreme liberal synods to extreme conservative ones gave us an excuse to fight among ourselves.

Some folks did not like each other and covered it up with a theological veil. That was why theological debates were often ending up in scuffles between some of the regulars.

This personal dislike towards each other is something that needs to be addressed.

 

[ContraMundum]

Oh I'm not afraid to open your can of worms. Because I stand resolute here. You, however, have a history of getting in trouble here because of your incessant need to argue, same with the poster you also cyber high-fived.

It does not surprise me, then, that you guys would complain about how you've been treated.

You are a perfect example of why members in TCL are leery of people asking "questions". I post this as a member of this forum.

Funny that. There was a problem with serial reporters on this forum, IIRC. They all had something in common- but we all know this now. It's not hard to see the feedback on this thread to understand that the "watchdogs" were always a little over zealous for their own POV.

Thank God those days are over. Aren't they? It's really up to the posters to make it that way.

 

[ContraMundum]

From what I recall, Contra never asked "anti-Lutheran" questions.
As a matter of fact, when I was just fresh convert to Lutheranism and was asking questions here at TCL, I was kind of disappointed because no one really explained. They argued against me.
Contra was the one who explained to me certain aspects of Lutheran faith that I never got from anyone here. We did this via PMs.
He understood the problems I was having.
For which I am grateful to God.

Thank you for the compliment brother. As I am now back in the fold (won't change the icon for a while yet though) and ministering again in the LC I'm happy to say that I am glad I could be of some assistance. You also bring fresh light and independent thought to the fora on CF and I find that beneficial too.

 

[ContraMundum]

YI've been a member here a LONG time, and I've seen people come and go through this forum, and it is BY FAR the best forum as far as allowing people to come in and be open with their criticism, but there comes a point in time when people don't like guests insulting them, over and over and over.

I think this hits the nail on the head. I've been reading this forum for seven years...and I can't even recall a single real "criticism" of Lutheranism from a visitor. Nor can I recall guests deliberately insulting people for being Lutheran or holding Lutheran ideals.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you?

Because to me, a genuine criticism would be something that argues negatively against a point of agreed upon Lutheran theology. I don't think I've ever seen that here, apart from isolated comments that never go further than a post or two. I've seen questions, misunderstandings that needed to be cleared up, and internal bickering a'plenty.

Perhaps you see criticism as something different.

Personally speaking, I think this forum is not the most welcoming, and that's sad, because IRL, LC's tend to be very welcoming. A great example of a welcoming forum would be W'sP.

 

[jonathan1971]

I haven't seen the "unfriendliness". This forum is pretty tame compared to others like CARM.org, which is the worst by far. Those people are different though cause they allow people to post anywhere they want to and most of it is unmoderated so they can easily spread their hate on whomever they want to. The only flamewars I remember are the ones between pro lifers and pro abortionists.

I've referred people to this place in the past as a safe way to ask questions of Lutherans without getting flamed by reformed Baptists.

Maybe those accusing Lutherans at CF of being unfriendly should post links instead of just anecdotal proofs. The forums go back at least 10 years.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Here is a PRIME example of where Lutherans were exceedingly patient with every Tom, Dick and Harry who came in to argue that Muslims worship the same God.

Granted, you won't see the most troublesome posts, because they've been deleted from the thread, but you'll see the patience that has been extolled here, and you can watch as that patience wears thin after 10-11 pages.

www.christianforums.com/t7742150

This thread would've been just peachy in General Theology with all of the debate. But it wasn't a GT thread. It was in a congregational safe haven. You wouldn't know that by reading it.

 

[Edial]

I haven't seen the "unfriendliness". This forum is pretty tame compared to others like CARM.org, which is the worst by far. Those people are different though cause they allow people to post anywhere they want to and most of it is unmoderated so they can easily spread their hate on whomever they want to. The only flamewars I remember are the ones between pro lifers and pro abortionists.

I've referred people to this place in the past as a safe way to ask questions of Lutherans without getting flamed by reformed Baptists.

Maybe those accusing Lutherans at CF of being unfriendly should post links instead of just anecdotal proofs. The forums go back at least 10 years.

Thank you for this.

As I said before, TCL has depth.
Once there is depth there are many layers, some good and some that need improvement.

Every regular, especially Becky, contributed a lot of positive things to TCL.

Even the disagreements many of us had and even the fights were, believe it or not, in the light that God is with us.
I am not proud of the fights. No.
I am pleased however, that the Spirit of God was with us ... even when we sinned in our relationships towards each other.

And when God is with us, it is important.
It means there will be an improvement.

Thanks,
In Christ,
Ed

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I got zinged early on in this forum because I called out a member. I took my lumps and learned how to post correctly. Yep, I'm pretty passionate about posting here and what I post. But...

If you see me get my hackles up, it's because there's two things I don't like: someone coming into my home forum and arguing with us, and someone coming into our home forum who's not Lutheran and saying "this is what Lutherans believe".

If you're not Lutheran but you want to debate my beliefs and doctrines, that's great. I always need to brush up on my Confessions and whatnot. But the proper forum for that is GT.

Someone mentioned earlier that there is a great divide between what is considered Confessional Lutheranism and the more liberal Lutheranism. Unfortunately, that divide is a huge chasm that involves some pretty hefty salvific issues. Because of that, you will see debate amongst the members of this forum as well.

A long time ago, the Missouri Synod came to the Wisconsin Synod and said "you are erring. You cannot err. You need to fix your ways" and the WELS took that to heart and did so. It was a contentious time, though, and we did end up not being in fellowship much later on, but without that admonishment, where might the WELS be these days?

 

[Fish and Bread]

A long time ago, the Missouri Synod came to the Wisconsin Synod and said "you are erring. You cannot err. You need to fix your ways" and the WELS took that to heart and did so. It was a contentious time, though, and we did end up not being in fellowship much later on, but without that admonishment, where might the WELS be these days?

That sounds interesting. Any links to articles or discussion about what happened back then? Did any of the WELS congregations split off and join ELCA or otherwise leave the Wisconsin synod over the changes that the Missouri Synod demanded?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

That sounds interesting. Any links to articles or discussion about what happened back then? Did any of the WELS congregations split off and join ELCA or otherwise leave the Wisconsin synod over the changes that the Missouri Synod demanded?

I believe that was back in the 30s. I would have to brush up on my history to answer that one!

The big split came in the 60s and there were plenty of congregations on both sides that went over to the other side, although I'm not sure if any went to ELCA. I think the big split of the 60s is what caused half my mom's side of the family to go LCMS while we stayed WELS.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Bump...

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Bump...

I think we've resolved the issue Ed raised in the opening post... I think the conclusion was to NOT close the conservative/liberal sub forums. And that we are encouraged to post here.

I think some time was spent sharing WHY this forum (like so many at CF) has become weak and inactive..... I shared a few of my thoughts on that. I'm not sure all that accomplished much. CF is what it is (warts and all).


Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

[ Side point: I just find it .... interesting...... that an Admin wanted a constructive, open, "real" discussion - and so made the thread "report free" - exempt from the Rules and Staff intervention. Hum..... Interesting..... ]



Sorry



A blessed Holy Week to all


- Josiah