Staff/member discussion about the updated Statement of purpose

[pat34lee]

Will start another thread. Sorry about getting this sidetracked

 

[Norbert L]

I am starting this so that members can discuss the new Messianic Judaism Forum Statement of Purpose with admin staff.

Are some changes. For instance, this is in there now:

While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.​

This will not be a report free thread, so please keep the comments within the rules.

The change you quote in your post strikes me as trying to achieve some middle ground between having Torah observance as an obligation for salvation and non-Torah observance as a requirement for salvation. There are some that would argue for each of those. So it would create discussions but not all of those would be an utterly bad thing to happen.

For instance think about what happened at the Jerusalem Council with the statement “It is necessary to circumcise them [gentiles] and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

A question about, 'is it necessary to circumcise Jews to keep the law of Moses' was not addressed.

So where does that put the statement of "we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so."? Are believing Jews no longer required to be faithful to the covenant God made with Abraham, only the ones that are called to do so?

 

[ContraMundum]

Not exactly true. It has been established that the series of knots and strands in the first century was used as a resume of sorts for a person's religious training. That is why Saul/Paul was asked to speak - his tzitzit told that he had studied under Gamaliel.

The reason for Our Lord saying NOT to enlarge your tzitzit was to keep people from bragging (or even exaggerating) about their qualifications.

Pretty much confirming what I said, no?

 

[FreeinChrist]

The change you quote in your post strikes me as trying to achieve some middle ground between having Torah observance as an obligation for salvation and non-Torah observance as a requirement for salvation. There are some that would argue for each of those. So it would create discussions but not all of those would be an utterly bad thing to happen.

The statement is:
While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone.

So per the SOP, is it not for an obligation for salvation. It is out of love for G-d.

For instance think about what happened at the Jerusalem Council with the statement “It is necessary to circumcise them [gentiles] and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

A question about, 'is it necessary to circumcise Jews to keep the law of Moses' was not addressed.

So where does that put the statement of "we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so."? Are believing Jews no longer required to be faithful to the covenant God made with Abraham, only the ones that are called to do so?

I will check with the team.

 

[Heber Book List]

The statement is:
While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone.

So per the SOP, is it not for an obligation for salvation. It is out of love for G-d.



I will check with the team.

But you say here in your sentence just above this one, in the form of a question, that it IS an obligation for salvation! Whoops!

 

[FreeinChrist]

But you say here in your sentence just above this one, in the form of a question, that it IS an obligation for salvation! Whoops!

No, actually not.

Welcome to the Messianic Judaism forum! This forum is a gathering place for both Jews and Gentiles who have come to believe in Messiah Yeshua and wish to follow in His footsteps in worshiping the one True G-d in Spirit and in His way and truth which brings life.* While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.
​

It identifies the intent of this faith group as being for those who desire to be Torah abservant, and adds that any who feel called to be Torah observant should not be discouraged.

 

[Heber Book List]

No, actually not.

Welcome to the Messianic Judaism forum! This forum is a gathering place for both Jews and Gentiles who have come to believe in Messiah Yeshua and wish to follow in His footsteps in worshiping the one True G-d in Spirit and in His way and truth which brings life.* While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.
​

It identifies the intent of this faith group as being for those who desire to be Torah abservant, and adds that any who feel called to be Torah observant should not be discouraged.

Did you mean to say: So per the SOP it is not for an obligation for salvation. It is out of love for G_d

What you actually wrote is: 'So per the SOP, is it not for an obligation for salvation [?]. It is out of love for G-d.' Question mark added by me to indicate that you are here asking a question.

There is a major difference between those two sentences, which I have underlined. Transposing the first two words underlined changes it from negative 'it is not' to positive 'is it not'!

 

[FreeinChrist]

While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone.

It is clear in the SOP.

 

[pat34lee]

Mods, please move posts on tzitzit to the thread created for it.

Thank you.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I moved them

 

[FreeinChrist]

okay, I want to address a few things from this thread.

First, we will not be changing the title of the forum. While some may feel it is better to rename it, it was felt the current title is the best one.

Second, there were some good suggestions for additions to the SOP. The thing is, we do not want to add rules in the SOP that are covered already in the site rules and Statement of Faith. The location of the forum in the congregational/faith group area means this is a Christian Trinitarian forum. Posts and posts including links that debate against the Trinity, or against Jesus as the Messiah, or the Nicene Creed are not allowed. Members are responsible for what they post and that includes links. We did make the effort in all the forums to trim down the SOPs so something members are more likely to read, because many will not read one that is longer.

Third, that said above, Non-Messianic Jews and non-Trinitarian Messianics are welcome to post in this forum, but must refrain from posting against Christian Trinitarian beliefs. Their input on topics such as Rabbinic Judaism and languages, for example, is welcomed.

We are still looking at some of the suggestions made about wording. Also, we will also be looking at the possibility that some of the topics that you may want to debate could be done in Formal Debate.

 

[Heber Book List]

While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone.

It is clear in the SOP.

I was only clarifying your ambiguous 'clarification' in response to a question by another poster on just that point.There's no need to shout!

 

[Norbert L]

So per the SOP, is it not for an obligation for salvation. It is out of love for G-d.

I believe a person could say the love for God can obligate them to observe what in the Torah is the will of God and how it should relate and express itself through the life He gave them.

 

[big macher]

The statement is:
While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone.

So per the SOP, is it not for an obligation for salvation. It is out of love for G-d.



I will check with the team.

The problem I see with 'it's out of love for God' is what about that don't observe the commands in the Torah such as Sabbath?

Since it's out of love for God, do believers who don't keep the Sabbath not love God?

I honestly think this should be changed to something like... This forum is a gathering place for believers whether Jewish or non Jewish who are called to a level of Torah observance. And also a place for believers to discuss Jewish roots of Christianity.

You don't have to explain why or the reasons for levels of Torah observance only that believers are called to a level of observance.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I was only clarifying your ambiguous 'clarification' in response to a question by another poster on just that point.There's no need to shout!

You quoted me so I thought it was at me. I wasn't shouting.

 

[FreeinChrist]

The problem I see with 'it's out of love for God' is what about that don't observe the commands in the Torah such as Sabbath?

Since it's out of love for God, do believers who don't keep the Sabbath not love God?

I honestly think this should be changed to something like... This forum is a gathering place for believers whether Jewish or non Jewish who are called to a level of Torah observance. And also a place for believers to discuss Jewish roots of Christianity.

You don't have to explain why or the reasons for levels of Torah observance only that believers are called to a level of observance.

That is something to consider. We will do that.

 

[AbbaLove]

I hope you realize that the new SOP and current rules being enforced favor only one particular brand of MJ, and penalize another. This site currently does not allow all MJ's to express our views. It is what has been the source of a lot of hostility.

This most recent SOP clarifies CF's ecumenical interpretation of "TORAH." It actually saddens me that the new MJ SOP doesn't even make mention of the inportance of the Sabbath ... "Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it Holy"

This new SOP gives insight into why the MJ faith icon has always been just "Messianic" and not "Messianic Judaism." What was once more of a Messianic Judaism forum is now taking on the appearance (new SOP) more of what i'll call a reformed Messianic Judaism forum (RMJ). IMO, both Rick Warren and Pope Francis would approve of CF's new MJ ecumenical SOP.

Would it be a stretch to say that the new SOP is "non-kosher" with respect to Messianic Judaism of the 60s and 70s as well as many of today's Messianic Congregations ?

 

[Heber Book List]

You quoted me so I thought it was at me. I wasn't shouting.

Extra large wording is shouting

 

[FreeinChrist]

When I am shouting, I would use a size that is larger.

 

[AbbaLove]

When I am shouting, I would use a size that is larger.

First-off we all should know that there is no need for an Administrator and CF Staff Trainer to shout.

Secondly, thanks to You, Sojourner, Truthfrees and others for the new positive, user friendly SOP. If you remember my suggestion of using "pro-Paul" in place of "anti-Paul."

Thirdly, because of CFs positive changes i've decided to change my faith status from Christian to Messianic. Previously was registered as "Christian Messianic" but only "Christian" was displayed. If for some reason CF will not allow a change from Christian to Messianic (as it is still shown as Christian) please advise. Had read and agreed to the previous SOP two years ago and checked off the appropriate box as attending both a Christian and MJ Congregation.

Shabbat Shalom