Staff/member discussion about the updated Statement of purpose

[pat34lee]

The thing is, Greek had no word for "legalism." So nomos νόμος was used for that as well. I do not think we want to equate legalism with Torah.

Why not? What is wrong with legalism? If you drive the speed limit,
don't rob banks or break the laws of the state and country where you live,
are you a legalist?

 

[pat34lee]

It's a terrible practice to translate ever instance of νόμος with the word "Torah." That leads to terrible misunderstandings.

Exactly. Law can mean one of three types of law in the New Testament.
http://www.pantagraph.com/news/opin...cle_709ef862-464c-11e3-b98e-001a4bcf887a.html

Four if you count the traditions of the elders.

Five if you count the laws about health seperately.
http://www.pacinst.com/nslaw/chapter2/ntlaw.html

 

[visionary]

Why not? What is wrong with legalism? If you drive the speed limit,
don't rob banks or break the laws of the state and country where you live,
are you a legalist?

On a technicality... you win.. that is a legalist... not necessarily morally right... just technically...

 

[Dave-W]

Why not? What is wrong with legalism? If you drive the speed limit,
don't rob banks or break the laws of the state and country where you live,
are you a legalist?

A legalist is one who takes his/her sense of selfworth by how well he performs in keeping what ever law is applicable. It is NOT the same as obedience.

Here is an example of a legalist:

Luke 18.11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’

Here is an example of an obedient person who is not embroiled in legalism:

Luke 17:10 So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”

 

[danny ski]

In the absence of laws, people create laws. In this case, there's no need for that. This is a question of authority and the level of obedience. Our POV is that the Law reigns supreme, since we believe it was Gd given. We follow it not blindly. Jesus had a disagreement, maybe about application, maybe about interpretation. It was and is not an uncommon conversation among us. Unfortunately, somewhere along the way, it translated into wholesale non compliance.

 

[AbbaLove]

Unfortunately, somewhere along the way, it translated into wholesale non compliance.

As some have said ,,, "truer words were never spoken" ... when it comes to how some will also misinterpret/mistranslate Paul's words. When Paul says the "law of sin and death" it goes way back to when Adam & Eve disobeyed the first Torah(Law) of God (Genesis 3:3). Without the Laws of God the disciplines of science, mathmatics, music, art and others wouldn't exist as we know them today. Of course there are those that have already corrupted music. What God intends for Good (e.g. Ten Commandments) man has a way of wanting to do his own thing as if he is his own god.

Gensis 3:3 ~ but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, G-d has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die."

 

[Truthfrees]

When Paul says the "law of sin and death" it goes way back to when Adam & Eve disobeyed the first Torah(Law) of God (Genesis 3:3).

Great point!

When we disobey Torah, the law of sin and death kicks in.

 

[Truthfrees]

In the absence of laws, people create laws. In this case, there's no need for that. This is a question of authority and the level of obedience. Our POV is that the Law reigns supreme, since we believe it was Gd given. We follow it not blindly. Jesus had a disagreement, maybe about application, maybe about interpretation. It was and is not an uncommon conversation among us. Unfortunately, somewhere along the way, it translated into wholesale non compliance.

Well said!

 

[danny ski]

Great point!

When we disobey Torah, the law of sin and death kicks in.

"Judaism has always maintained that G-d's justice is tempered by mercy, the two qualities perfectly balanced. Of the two Names of G-d most commonly used in scripture, one refers to his quality of justice and the other to his quality of mercy. The two names were used together in the story of Creation, showing that the world was created with both justice and mercy"-from jewishvirtuallibrary. I think the lack of balance, as Jesus understood it, is the context of his criticism. Perhaps he thought they were being too literal/harsh in their observance. Christians tend to describe it as legalism. I believe that justice without mercy is worthless and mercy without justice is just as useless. Justice and loving kindness(mercy) are the cornerstones of our faith. One cannot exist without the other. If we use that as a starting point, understanding of the Torah's application in our lives becomes a lot easier to comprehend.

 

[Hoshiyya]

"Judaism has always maintained that G-d's justice is tempered by mercy, the two qualities perfectly balanced. Of the two Names of G-d most commonly used in scripture, one refers to his quality of justice and the other to his quality of mercy. The two names were used together in the story of Creation, showing that the world was created with both justice and mercy"-from jewishvirtuallibrary. I think the lack of balance, as Jesus understood it, is the context of his criticism. Perhaps he thought they were being too literal/harsh in their observance. Christians tend to describe it as legalism. I believe that justice without mercy is worthless and mercy without justice is just as useless. Justice and loving kindness(mercy) are the cornerstones of our faith. One cannot exist without the other. If we use that as a starting point, understanding of the Torah's application in our lives becomes a lot easier to comprehend.

The Judaism of today is not necessarily equivalent to the Judaism practiced by certain Pharisees in the 1st century. I too believe balance is the ultimate answer and I recognize that balance in modern Judaism, but the criticism of Yeshua may well have been legitimate. I wasn't there, so I just have to take the Bible's word for it.

 

[pat34lee]

Luke 17:10 So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”

I agree, but most Christians who accuse a person of legalism don't
care about their motives for following the Torah. Seeing a person
who is careful to follow the law pricks their conscience because
deep down, they know they should be doing the same.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I agree, but most Christians who accuse a person of legalism don't
care about their motives for following the Torah. Seeing a person
who is careful to follow the law pricks their conscience because
deep down, they know they should be doing the same.

I don't think it wise to speculate about what goes on "deep down" inside someone.
I honestly doubt that is happening to anyone, it is impossible to know anyway.

Christian accusations of legalism literally make no sense whatsoever. The entire paradigm of the Christians is foreign to the Bible. This whole faith-alone-eternal-hell-eurochurch system is entirely foreign to the Bible. TBH Islam is significantly closer to truth than Christianity on many points. And you notice that in Islam people don't throw around the term "legalisn" because in Islam the idea that "the law is bad" is utterly foreign, just as is the case in Judaism.

 

[visionary]

Legalism enforces it upon those around them. Lawful incorporate it within themselves.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Legalism enforces it upon those around them.

In any case legalism is used as an accusation, nobody actually says "I am a legalist."
If a Christian calls a follower of the Torah of God a legalist, that is just a way for the Christian to reveal his presumption and his lack of knowledge, so that one can know to avoid engaging him in a fruitless argument.

God puts a little sign on each of his creatures, so that they can be recognized.

 

[FreeinChrist]

The SOP was updated and we would like to keep it that way for now.
Messianic Judaism Forum Statement of Purpose

Let's see how it works. If you have a concern, please start a thread in the Member Services center or pm either Tishri1 or myself.

While the discussion here was helpful and in many cases wonderful, I am going ahead and closing this thread for now.