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Messianic Jewboy

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Interesting story. Why was MJAA and UMJC less favorable?
 
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The Templar

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The teaching of Torah topics is not the same as manditory Torah observance.
 
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Henaynei

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MAN, this tiny screen DOES mess me up some times!
I made a large mistake here
 
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Lulav

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What I don't understand is if what we agree on here that torah observance is a big thing that separates us from the rest of Christianity and is peculiar to our group, then why are we only allowed to speak of Torah in a separate forum for it? Torah is what guides our whole lives, how can we not include it in everyday conversation?

If Torah observers are the majority here (I think Tal mentioned it was like 5 to1) then why is the majority regulated, basically as Ani put, to a ghetto?
 
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Messianic Jewboy

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Exactly what I've been trying to say. I think that's the video I posted. To me in reality Messianic Judaism is Judaism and/or Christianity but biblical Judaism or biblical Christianity.
 
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anisavta

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I think the MJAA SoF alone is a good standard and if folks wish to post about Torah observance do it in the sub-forum set up for that.
Leave the main MJ board for general fellowship and edification.
And there we have the problem. Torah observance to some is included in daily life, in edification and fellowship. You can't tell those who observe Torah, "You can only talk about it in the subforum while the rest of us run free fellowshipping and edifying each other in the general MJ forum".
 
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Jerushabelle

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The Templar

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Not really. All that would do is relegate those who observe Torah more diligently to a ghetto of sorts. And as far as I know no one in our forum demands "mandatory Torah observance".

So it's okay to relegate others to a ghetto???

Friction is not necessarily wrong. Iron sharpens iron.

I do not see this friction sharpening anything but the tools of hate, bigotry and separation.

Our issue as I see it is the disrespect we've experienced as Messianic Jews and Gentiles for not stepping in line with general Christian doctrine sometimes sadly disguised by those using the Torah scroll icon as their shield.

Again, I see no one telling anyone they need to be less Jewish and more Christian. No one.
I do not see any disrespect, none.
I only see believers with differing views, nothing more.
I have watched this forum for some time and can honestly say I have not witnessed anyone tell the others here they need to be less Jewish or less Torah observant. What I have witnessed is whenever someone with a different view steps in, they get beaten to a pulp until they leave. And many here cheering their departure claiming they were not Messianic!
Who are we to judge another?
There are many different schools within MJ, why not give the respect to all that we expect for ourselves?
Have we not been taught by Yeshua to do for others as we would have them do for us?
Nice closing comment, a fine example of a judgmental insult.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Good word

Part of me was wondering the same thing when it came to following some of the discussions over the years...and seeing where most (if not all) people claiming to be Torah Observant have often not been able to address areas where TOrah is not kept in their lives---and the things mentioned were "Well, what matters is that at least I'm striving"...yet what was said previously was that the Lord desires perfection/seeing not one of His laws either taken away from or added to. For people saying there's no one here who has ever come close to keeping all of the Law and that all have areas where they may not do it like in the OT----tithing being one of the greatest examples as well as the issues of stoning of others/those who are rebellious and the laws on skin disease being another as well as many others----it has been interesting to see how often that is treated as if one does not love the Torah.

Everyone here is striving to do what they feel convicted on with TORAH and honor the Lord--and no one here really has the right to say of another that their level of observance is not enough since no one here has ever been concerned with fully keeping all of it when it comes to all having differing levels of comfortability.
 
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Tishri1

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Awesome post EZ I think this is a perfect way to start getting to know each other in a positive way!

Sent from my iPad using CF God Bless You
 
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A

aniello

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Interesting story. Why was MJAA and UMJC less favorable?

As to UMJC I screwed up the sentence. In 1958 UMJC did not exist.

HCAA(later called MJAA in 1975) advocated that we Jews join evangelical protestant churches. We tried(our group) Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, AoG, Episcopal, Presbyterian, that's all that come to memory now. Gee, it was 54 years ago. These churches, when they found out we were Jews(oh shudder/gasp) all essentially told us, rather emphatically, to lose "the Jew crap" to quote by memory one very red faced Baptist preacher who I think wanted to beat the cr--(I mean stuffing) out of us.

In view of Duet 4:2 and I John 3:4:

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. ,

how could we have viewed their doctrine(s) other than SIN?

Seems clear enough.
 
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The Templar

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But we can demand others from the other MJ Congrgations to stay silent because they are not Torah Observant enough?
Fellowship and edification can, and should, be enjoyed without being judged for the level of Torah observance.
Many here are far too ready to judge who is and who is not Messianic.
It is not our place to judge anothers servant, when one puts on the MJ scroll or the Cross of Christ they are announcing they are the servants of Yeshua. Only Yeshua can judge His servants.
 
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Jerushabelle

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I don't understand this attitude Sister Anisavta. I watched while you all agreed with Sister Tishri to set up and name that subforum. Now you don't want it? Well, okay I guess but then don't get upset when someone posts their faith expression in MJ to the main forum and it disagrees with you. I can understand someone's desire to observe the dietary laws. I can admire their conviction to do so while not doing so myself. But then, I expect the same sort of respect in regard to my own conviction and expression within MJ.
 
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Lulav

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I think everyone here is aware of that. I don't think there are any mandatory Torah observance thread in either that forum or the main one.

A few questions here.


  1. Why does our SoF have to come from an MJ organization? We are not all part of them.
  2. The biggest part of the problems of late is not about how much or how little someone keeps Torah, but actually who it is for and who should and who shouldn't.
  3. Never heard of personal hypocrisy, it's rather and oxymoron is it not. We do not tell ourselves we obey something or keep a commandment we don't, unless some of us are bi-polar or schizophrenic and I doubt that's the case.
  4. G-d gave Israel 613 Mitzvot, for a community. No one person can obey them all as they are not for one person. Even Yeshua did not because he could not obey them all. This is something that many Christians don't understand and in ignorance throw this up at us.
Which brings me to the question, How long have you considered yourself Messianic? You have been posting using the preps of 'us' and 'we' when I've never seen you post in here before and my only knowledge of you is from a warning you gave me that really appears to show you not understanding how a Jew should be presented with who Yeshua is. Also no one that is truly a Messianic, (which would mean for one big thing you are a friend to Jews and love the Jewish people) would call themselves a Templar. Most here know the history of the Templars and how Jews they slaughtered on their way to the Holy Land. So it just surprises me that you are now flying the Torah scrolls when a whole part of this debate is about who is and who isn't.

And these are accusations against us

Who of us can actually claim any sincere level of Torah observance?
this is really a issue of personal hypocricy


Also the link you posted is from a Messianic from an organization that does not believe we are required to keep Torah, stating that Messiah fulfilled it.
 
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The Templar

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Discussing Torah observance IS edification in the MJ context.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Normally, I would agree.
However, here I have witnessed it used as a club to beat down those we don't like.
That is a very poor way to teach.

You WILL agree with me!
 
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Tishri1

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Thanks for the support EZ, I kinda dropped the ball on that myself and for that I'm sorry, for a while I was not able to be here as much as I would have liked to be here as I share one lap top with five people two of which are teens.... then I was blessed to win a contest at work and won an IPAD2!!!!!. I can help us thru that transition now better, as long as everyone is still willing to try it out.....3 mos is all it will take to test run this new look in MJ

Sent from my iPad using CF God Bless You
 
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Jerushabelle

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I'm sorry you experienced that but you know, I experienced the same thing in reverse in two very high profile Messianic synagogues. I can't speak to the poor behavior of fellow Christians. Only God can. I can show you that I care for you as a Brother in the Body. I'm responsible for my actions under God and those who mistreated you will be held responsible for their actions. Would it interest you to know that I was thrown out of the very Methodist church I attended for ten years because of my Messianic beliefs? Big deal, there will be repercussions so what do I have to worry about? God is in control. This is the same attitude of my friend who is Messianic and extremely Torah observant. Because there is no MJ congregation near her, she attends a Charismatic church and has for many years. The elders of that church have been at her doorstep multiple times in an effort to understand her Messianic faith expression. They have come close a time or two, she reported recently to me, to telling her she needed to vamoos but so far they are accepting her Scriptural argument for her faith expression in MJ and that, IMHO, is as it should be. Those elders were there because of the legalistic attitudes of members of the church who complained to the elders. That sort of nastiness is a bad witness to the Lord.
 
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The Templar

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