St. Paul Demonstrating Sola Scriptura In Scripture

[BobRyan]

It includes the New Testament, I'm quite sure. In it, we have the decision to make Sunday the church's primary day of worship and, as well, the authorization. I don't find that the verses you've cited teach what you think they do, BTW.

indeed having a text saying "from now on week-day-1 is our day of worship - not the 7th day any longer" or something of that sort - would be a nice "sola scriptura" reference for such a change.

Notice that in this exchange - I rely on the wording in the text. Your post relies on the assumption that some text must exist some place to support your view.

 

[Albion]

Notice that in this exchange - I rely on the wording in the text. Your post relies on the assumption that some text must exist some place to support your view.

You may want to think that, but it isn't what I wrote. I said that your citations don't prove out your contention. And as for the verses I had in mind and mentioned earlier, yes they do exist, and I'm surprised to have you talk as though you don't know them--especially not in view of the importance you place upon this particular subject.

 

[BobRyan]

You may want to think that, but it isn't what I wrote. I said that your citations don't prove out your contention.

My contention that Sabbath was given even in the OT as a day of worship and even in the OT as applicable to gentiles and Jews - was "in the text". As I stated - the very wording in the text.

And as for the verses I had in mind and mentioned earlier, yes they do exist, and I'm surprised to have you talk as though you don't know them

Your statement was that there must be a text that does exist that says in your words ", I'm quite sure. In it, we have the decision to make Sunday the church's primary day of worship" -- a good example of a text we don't have. Nothing at all in the NT saying "week day 1 is now our primary day of worship" --- nothing at all in the NT saying "the Sabbath is now week-day-1" nothing at all in the NT saying "the Lord's Day is week day 1" ... nothing at all in the NT saying "we gather every week day 1 for worship". Not even examples of 'week day 1, after week day 1, after week day 1 worship services" --

For that sort of cyclic - sequence of worship - we have to go to the Sabbath and Acts 13, Acts 17, and Acts 18.

--especially not in view of the importance you place upon this particular subject.

All I have said on this subject on this thread has been "what is the Bible fact" the existence or non-existence of texts in the NT.

Do you consider that to be too much attention to detail? or that the mention of that detail gives the Commandment "too much importance"?

IN any case - a great example of how the sola scriptura debate plays out inside the sola-scriptura camp.

 

[Albion]

My contention that Sabbath was given even in the OT as a day of worship and even in the OT as applicable to gentiles and Jews - was "in the text". As I stated - the very wording in the text.

I know.

Your statement was that there must be a text that does exist that says in your words ", I'm quite sure. In it, we have the decision to make Sunday the church's primary day of worship" -- a good example of a text we don't have. Nothing at all in the NT saying "week day 1 is now our primary day of worship" --- nothing at all in the NT saying "the Sabbath is now week-day-1" nothing at all in the NT saying "the Lord's Day is week day 1" ... nothing at all in the NT saying "we gather every week day 1 for worship". Not even examples of 'week day 1, after week day 1, after week day 1 worship services"

You're reading what you want to read, apparently. Does "The Roman Catholic Church did this to us and none of the other 30,000 denominations (other than your own and Herbert W. Armstrong) have broken free" come next?

 

[Sophrosyne]

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to WORSHIP"
Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for MANKIND"
Acts 13 - Sabbath after Sabbath Gospel preaching and worship in the synagogue. Both Jews and Gentiles
Acts 17:1-5 Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath - Gospel preaching and worship in the synagogues - both Jews and Gentiles
Acts 18 - Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath - Gospel preaching and worship in the synagogues - both Jews and gentiles.
Rev 14:7 "Worship Him who made the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water.."
Heb 4 "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

There is a "sola scriptura" way to study that subject.

Oct 19, 2015 #1

And of course the "Change" of the Sabbath Commandment -- thread.
Nov 21, 2015 #1

from Sabbath to Sabbath doesn't exclude but INCLUDES.... ALL DAYS of the WEEK for worship.

 

[Standing Up]

from Sabbath to Sabbath doesn't exclude but INCLUDES.... ALL DAYS of the WEEK for worship.

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

 

[Sophrosyne]

You may want to think that, but it isn't what I wrote. I said that your citations don't prove out your contention. And as for the verses I had in mind and mentioned earlier, yes they do exist, and I'm surprised to have you talk as though you don't know them--especially not in view of the importance you place upon this particular subject.

You will find that even though some SDAs proclaim sola scripture they in reality don't practice it at all they tend to follow the same model as Catholics do ignoring scripture that conflicts with their prophetess which IMO means they are essentially AGAINST it by practice.

 

[BobRyan]

Actually there is nowhere in the Bible of any requirement of worship on the Sabbath Day if you read the only commandment was to cease from working. The SDA and others have made worship into a "work" on the Sabbath and equate it also akin to a "work" on Sunday.

That's a valid point that is seldom mentioned during discussions of this subject.

on the contrary.... "sola scriptura" (not simply wishful thinking - but actual Bible texts)

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to WORSHIP"
Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for MANKIND"
Acts 13 - Sabbath after Sabbath Gospel preaching and worship in the synagogue. Both Jews and Gentiles
Acts 17:1-5 Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath - Gospel preaching and worship in the synagogues - both Jews and Gentiles
Acts 18 - Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath - Gospel preaching and worship in the synagogues - both Jews and gentiles.
Rev 14:7 "Worship Him who made the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water.."
Heb 4 "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

There is a "sola scriptura" way to study that subject.

Oct 19, 2015 #1

And of course the "Change" of the Sabbath Commandment -- thread.
Nov 21, 2015 #1

from Sabbath to Sabbath doesn't exclude but INCLUDES.... ALL DAYS of the WEEK for worship.

On the contrary there are TWO cycles in Is 66:23 - the weekly Sabbath and the monthly new Moon - and there is no text in all of scripture saying that these TWO cycles are merely the way to say "daily". That point can be proven "sola scriptura"


My contention that Sabbath was given even in the OT as a day of worship and even in the OT as applicable to gentiles and Jews - was "in the text". As I stated - the very wording in the text.

I know.

Ahhh yes - "sola scriptura"

You're reading what you want to read,

On the contrary - the mere quote of the text makes the point and is sufficient to give rise to strong objection to it.

That is how the "sola scriptura" model works.


======================================
What follows is not an example of "Sola scriptura" anything -

Does "The Roman Catholic Church did this to us and none of the other 30,000 denominations (other than your own and Herbert W. Armstrong) have broken free"

"The Roman Catholic Church did this to us"??? who are you quoting??

"My own" H.W. Armstrong?? what is that all about??

 

[BobRyan]

The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

You will find that even though some SDAs proclaim sola scripture they in reality don't practice it at all they tend to follow the same model as Catholics do ignoring scripture that conflicts with their prophetess which IMO means they are essentially AGAINST it by practice.

So far you have been avoiding the actual texts showing worship on Sabbath as your "sola scriptura" point that the Bible does not command worship on the Sabbath.

your "spin" on the simple Bible fact admitted even by pro-Sunday sources -- "noted"

By contrast - I prefer the actual texts.

 

[Albion]

"The Roman Catholic Church did this to us"??? who are you quoting??

"My own" H.W. Armstrong?? what is that all about??

What I wrote was "your own AND Herbert W. Armstrong."

Come on, man. It's right there in black and white.

.

 

[BobRyan]

What I wrote was "your own AND Herbert W. Armstrong."

Come on, man. It's right there in black and white.

.

You are quoting me and Armstrong - not the Bible in your "sola scriptura" discussion.

If your intent is to quote me - quoting the Bible... fine. You may start doing that any time now, that would at least be "something like" a sola scriptura discussion on the subject.

 

[BobRyan]

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

indeed -- TWO cycles in Is 66:23 for worship in the New Earth (for eternity after the cross) -- not one , not "from Tuesday to tuesday because by that I mean daily" -- in fact those two cycles never mean "daily" in all of scripture.

 

[Albion]

You are quoting me and Armstrong - not the Bible in your "sola scriptura" discussion.

Actually, I didn't quote either of you there.

 

[BobRyan]

nor the Bible. I vote for a "sola scriptura" discussion.

 

[Albion]

nor the Bible

But I've referred to the Bible passages, and you recognized them. Could we please stop playing games, now?

 

[BobRyan]

But I've referred to the Bible passages, and you recognized them.

Can you point to any of your posts - that point to even one Bible text on the subject of tradition vs the Bible Sabbath, where you are showing that the Bible makes your point?

 

[BobRyan]

here is a great example of "no Bible texts" pointed out.

And as for the verses I had in mind and mentioned earlier, yes they do exist, and I'm surprised to have you talk as though you don't know them

Your statement was that there must be a text that does exist that says in your words ", I'm quite sure. In it, we have the decision to make Sunday the church's primary day of worship" -- a good example of a text we don't have.

Nothing at all in the NT saying "week day 1 is now our primary day of worship"
--- nothing at all in the NT saying "the Sabbath is now week-day-1"
----nothing at all in the NT saying "the Lord's Day is week day 1" ...
----nothing at all in the NT saying "we gather every week day 1 for worship".

Not even examples of 'week day 1, after week day 1, after week day 1 worship services" --

The reason we have so many pro-Sunday scholars appealing to tradition coming after the Bible to make their case - on this subject, is that there is no such text in the actual Bible.

 

[Albion]

Can you point to any of your posts - that point to even one Bible text on the subject of tradition vs the Bible Sabbath, where you are showing that the Bible makes your point?

What ARE you trying to prove, Bob? The last time I looked, we were both advocates of Sola Scriptura and we're both aware of the verses that Sunday worship is based upon.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes we are - and I think there is a way to have a "sola scriptura" discussion of this 4th commandment Bible topic (that someone else brought up - not me) - I am simply responding with actual Bible texts - to statements made by others about what the Bible might say.

My point is not that we have to agree on all Bible topics -- just that there is a "sola scriptura" way to have the discussion.-

I think it first comes up here -

Yes, and going by Scripture alone the SDAs have it right regarding the Sabbath. Who wouldn't, picking up the bible in some later century without the benefit of tradition, observe Sabbath on the 7th day? But the church that Christ established rested, worshiped, and shared the body and blood on the Lord's Day from the beginning-without historical objection. It's just the way they did it.

But as a matter of practice - I try to avoid this topic on Sola Scriptura threads - because the Catholic argument that there is no good Sola Scriptura defense for changing the 4th commandment is impossible to refute. Even many non-Catholic scholars appeal to tradition when it comes time to make their pro-sunday case for this subject, because they simply don't have the text to make the case in the actual Bible.

It is the "elephant in the living room"

 

[Albion]

Yes we are - and I think there is a way to have a "sola scriptura" discussion of this 4th commandment Bible topic (that someone else brought up - not me) - I am simply responding with actual Bible texts - to statements made by others about what the Bible might say.

My point is not that we have to agree on all Bible topics -- just that there is a "sola scriptura" way to have the discussion.-

The "Sola Scriptura way" is to base one's decision upon the Bible. 95% of all Christians have done that and worship on the Lord's Day. You and a few other Christians have done that and decided everyone else is wrong. But it has nothing to do with being either for or against Sola Scriptura.

But as a matter of practice - I try to avoid this topic on Sola Scriptura threads - because the Catholic argument that there is no good Sola Scriptura defense for changing the 4th commandment is impossible to refute. Even many non-Catholic scholars appeal to tradition when it comes time to make their pro-sunday case for this subject.

Except that it's not Tradition that drives the Sunday position. Tens of thousands of Protestant denominations--almost all Protestant denominations--follow Sola Scriptura and have decided for Sunday precisely because the guidance is to be found in Scripture.