St. Paul Demonstrating Sola Scriptura In Scripture

[LittleLambofJesus]

Standing Up said: ↑
other thread

Then try making your claim in the other thread AFTER you've read my reply

Bump post #1875 from other thread

SU: Leaving aside the question of the number of valid (God-breathed) OT books, would folks think the OT is lacking or is it complete for all things doctrinal and practice?

Yes, there may be interpretation, but the authority was scripture. Scripture is over which they might argue.

Yes, they may cite someone's tradition, but the authority was scripture. Not the tradition per se.

Here's Christ in Luke 24:27.
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Here's Peter in 2 Peter 1:21.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Here's Paul in Acts 26:22.
Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

Everyone good? Any disagreement?

So, SS is in OT.

Can you provide a link to that thread? Thanks.




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[Fireinfolding]

Can you provide a link to that thread? Thanks.




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Here you go, they are here

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...bible-alone-is-not-sufficient.7906273/page-96

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Can you provide a link to that thread? Thanks.

Here you go, they are here

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...bible-alone-is-not-sufficient.7906273/page-96

Thank you Fireinfolding

Leaving aside the question of the number of valid (God-breathed) OT books, would folks think the OT is lacking or is it complete for all things doctrinal and practice?

Yes, there may be interpretation, but the authority was scripture. Scripture is over which they might argue.

Yes, they may cite someone's tradition, but the authority was scripture. Not the tradition per se.

Here's Christ in Luke 24:27.
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Here's Peter in 2 Peter 1:21.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Here's Paul in Acts 26:22.
Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

Everyone good? Any disagreement?

So, SS is in OT.

It would appear that way to me, so there is no disagreement from me on that.

Christ is also mentioned by my bro Paul in the OT. in 1Corin 10:

1Corin 10:
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.…

Reve 21:6
And He said to me:" it-has-become.
I Am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.
I, to the one thirsting, shall be giving out of the spring of the Water of the Life gratuitously". [John 7:37/Reve 22:17]



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[Rick Otto]

Yes, interesting verse; many people use it while often disagreeing, on the meaning of Scripture, with others likewise using it. And one significant point is that, independent of Scripture there existed, at that time, a new body of beliefs, held and professed by this new church made up of Jesus's disciples, based on the revelation He had given them. These beliefs didn't come from Scripture, rather they were held in common by a group of people, and were checked against Scripture. While the OT writings were considered to be the standard by which to test the veracity of these new teachings and claims, these teachings and claims had an existence apart from any written source until later when writings were penned by disciples and associates and later yet assembled into the canon we know as the New Testament. In any case the church continued to hold, teach, and practice this new faith which the Bereans were looking into before and after anything was written about it.

Nonsense. Of course the "new" beliefs came from scripture. That is what Paul showed. That is what Bereans found! That it had been written about.

 

[BobRyan]

They (the Jews in Beroea) (Acts 17:11) were Jews not Christians so if they chose to read the old testament to test the gospel I say "meh what's new?" that they were commended for not ridiculing saint Paul and chasing him out of town is noted in the passage but those among them who rejected the gospel were every bit as reprehensible as any other group that rejects the gospel preferring their own opinions over it.

I've counted five responses from you today and not one of them offers any holy scripture passage that teaches SS

The extreme distance from scripture that argues that Acts 17:11 is not scripture - is.... "meh" dismissable.

The fact that the Christian author of Acts - approves of as the saints in Berea - Acts 17 in this way "11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

Instead of saying "MEH some of them were Jews -- so then who cares what they did" --

it is notable how attitudes to holy scripture (such as the sermon on the mount from which I quoted at length and Acts 17 from which I also quoted at some length) haven't changed if the passages unsettle one's favoured doctrines.

1. you failed to make your case in Matt 5 - because Christ begins by saying he is affirming scripture -- not doing an end-run around out. This was pointed out to you numerous times.

2. All those in Matt 5 are.... "Jews" -- to which we do NOT say "Meh"

 

[Standing Up]

I think you know better than that. These forums alone prove that sincere people come up with a wide variety of interpretations with or without external influence-just by their own reading of it. But OTOH, who's to say just who has the truly objective interpretation and who does not? Or even if objectivity or a particular methodology are sufficient in and of themselves. And, speaking for EO and RC, a singular difference between them and P is that their interpretations are not based on Scripture alone.

In any event regarding the problem of interpretation, I believe we agree on the point as regards SS; that is, it was what Bereans (Jew) and Philip/eunuch (gentile) used.

 

[fhansen]

Nonsense. Of course the "new" beliefs came from scripture. That is what Paul showed. That is what Bereans found! That it had been written about.

Ok, then, you should be able to be Christian without the NT, without the advent and revelation of Christ. Nothing new had been revealed. Phillip didn't need to hear or do anything else either. He could've preached the Good News without ever hearing about it.

 

[fhansen]

delete-later

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Ok, then, you should be able to be Christian without the NT, without the advent and revelation of Christ. Nothing new had been revealed. Phillip didn't need to hear or do anything else either. He could've preached the Good News without ever hearing about it.

You brought up the case of Philip and the Eunuch. From the discussions all around that from various people surely you cannot ignore the only fact worth noting.....that it`s the revelation of Jesus Christ that brought about the change

 

[Standing Up]

Ok, then, you should be able to be Christian without the NT, without the advent and revelation of Christ. Nothing new had been revealed. Phillip didn't need to hear or do anything else either. He could've preached the Good News without ever hearing about it.

Let's try to agree on the basics.

"the Bible is the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice".

the bible is written.

If we've agreed that Christ, Paul, and others model SS in the transition phase from old to new as regards the OT, we can move into showing how SS is modeled in the NT also.

 

[Standing Up]

Thank you Fireinfolding

It would appear that way to me, so there is no disagreement from me on that.

Christ is also mentioned by my bro Paul in the OT. in 1Corin 10:

1Corin 10:
3 and all ate the same spiritual food;
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.…

Reve 21:6
And He said to me:" it-has-become.
I Am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.
I, to the one thirsting, shall be giving out of the spring of the Water of the Life gratuitously". [John 7:37/Reve 22:17]



.

That's useful against those who don't think the bible references itself. They do this to make it seem like only their "priest" can understand God.

 

[fhansen]

You brought up the case of Philip and the Eunuch. From the discussions all around that from various people surely you cannot ignore the only fact worth noting.....that it`s the revelation of Jesus Christ that brought about the change

Maybe you missed my point-which is the exact one you're making-except I was using a bit of mild sarcasm.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

fhansen said: ↑
Yes, interesting verse; many people use it while often disagreeing, on the meaning of Scripture, with others likewise using it. And one significant point is that, independent of Scripture there existed, at that time, a new body of beliefs, held and professed by this new church made up of Jesus's disciples, based on the revelation He had given them.
These beliefs didn't come from Scripture, rather they were held in common by a group of people, and were checked against Scripture.

While the OT writings were considered to be the standard by which to test the veracity of these new teachings and claims, these teachings and claims had an existence apart from any written source until later when writings were penned by disciples and associates and later yet assembled into the canon we know as the New Testament.
In any case the church continued to hold, teach, and practice this new faith which the Bereans were looking into before and after anything was written about it.

Nonsense. Of course the "new" beliefs came from scripture. That is what Paul showed. That is what Bereans found! That it had been written about.

Good post. Isaiah 43 brings up the "new thing" that would be brought to the OC Jews thru Jesus the Christ...

Isa 43:
19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it?
I will even make a Way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.
18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.

Hebrews 8:13
in the to be saying `New' He hath made old the first.
The yet being aged and being obsolete is nigh of disappearing

Rev 7:17
For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their Shepherd,
and He will guide them to springs of living water,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Revelation 21:
4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning or crying or pain;
for the former things have passed away."
and He said to me, 'It hath been done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End;
I, to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely;

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)


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[Fireinfolding]

Good post coming up behind his, those are the verses I was thinking of also

 

[BobRyan]

Ok, then, you should be able to be Christian without the NT, without the advent and revelation of Christ. Nothing new had been revealed. Phillip didn't need to hear or do anything else either. He could've preached the Good News without ever hearing about it.

"I have many MORE things to tell you - but you cannot bear them now" John 16:12

Always Christ will have "many more things" to tell us - He has infinite knowledge. The Gospel is infinitely deep in its meaning and significance.

YET it is ALSO true that --
"we have had the Gospel preached to US JUST as they ALSO had it" Heb 4:2
"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in saved, and glorified form - in Matt 17.

All the while - Peter James and John were "face down in the dirt" before Christ's glorified form.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"I have many MORE things to tell you - but you cannot bear them now" John 16:12

Always Christ will have "many more things" to tell us - He has infinite knowledge. The Gospel is infinitely deep in its meaning and significance.

YET it is ALSO true that --
"we have had the Gospel preached to US JUST as they ALSO had it" Heb 4:2
"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in saved, and glorified form - in Matt 17.

While Peter James and John were "face down in the dirt" before Christ's glorified form.

John was also extremely blessed to vision and write Revelation:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0831.htm

After the taking up of our Lord Jesus Christ, I John was alone upon Mount Tabor, where also He showed us His undefiled Godhead;and as I was not able to stand,
I fell upon the ground, and prayed to the Lord, and said: "O Lord my God, who hast deemed me worthy to be Thy servant, hear my voice, and teach me about Thy coming".................
.................And while I was still hearing this voice, the cloud brought me down, and put me on Mount Thabor. And there came a voice to me, saying: "Blessed are those who keep judgment and do righteousness in all time.
And blessed is the house where this description lies, as the Lord said, He that loves me keeps my sayings [John 14:23] in Christ Jesus our Lord; to Him be glory for ever. Amen."

Rev 22:
8 I John, am the one who heard and saw these things.
And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,
9 but he said to me, “thou must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets,
and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!.”




.

 

[fhansen]

"I have many MORE things to tell you - but you cannot bear them now" John 16:12

Always Christ will have "many more things" to tell us - He has infinite knowledge. The Gospel is infinitely deep in its meaning and significance.

YET it is ALSO true that --
"we have had the Gospel preached to US JUST as they ALSO had it" Heb 4:2
"The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7

Moses and Elijah stand WITH Christ in saved, and glorified form - in Matt 17.

While Peter James and John were "face down in the dirt" before Christ's glorified form.

While many here believe that private revelations are quite possible, and are, in fact, granted, I doubt many would agree that any new revelation can be added to the public revelation delivered once and for all with Christ's first advent for the sake of man's salvation. Are you also saying that, without the incarnation and the revelation that accompanied it, you would still be able to pick up the OT and come to the same beliefs you now have-that the good news/new testament was unnecessary in that sense?

 

[BobRyan]

While many here believe that private revelations are quite possible, and are, in fact, granted, I doubt many would agree that any new revelation can be added to the public revelation delivered once and for all with Christ's first advent for the sake of man's salvation.

Do you really think that no Bible writer who lived a day after Christ ascended to heaven - had anything inspired of God to say?? really?

Then would you be willing to not reject the Words of Christ "to the contrary" on that point? Regarding prophets that were "coming"?

Matt 23: 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Would you be willing to not reject the words of Paul on the subject of prophets that show up after the resurrection of Christ??

1 Cor 12
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of

1 Cor 14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

And would you be willing to subject the man-made-tradition that prophecy is for "private revelation" and not the edification of the church - to the actual Bible?

1 Cor 14
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

Eph 4
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

1 Thess 5
19 Do not quench the Spirit.
20 Do not despise prophecies.
21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[fhansen]

Do you really think that no Bible writer who lived a day after Christ ascended to heaven - had anything inspired of God to say?? really?

Then would you be willing to not reject the Words of Christ "to the contrary" on that point? Regarding prophets that were "coming"?

Matt 23: 34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Would you be willing to not reject the words of Paul on the subject of prophets that show up after the resurrection of Christ??

1 Cor 12
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of

1 Cor 14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

And would you be willing to subject the man-made-tradition that prophecy is for "private revelation" and not the edification of the church - to the actual Bible?

1 Cor 14
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

22 Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. 25 And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

Eph 4
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

in Christ,

Bob

I can't imagine where I said that no writer had anything inspired to say after Christ ascended. The inspiration had to remain, since they wrote years later. And, of course, the various gifts continued on as well. What else is new? Other than some late-comers maybe, false prophets and such, many of which happened to arise in the 19th century incidentally, but even those types aren't really new-they've been around since the beginning. To prophecy primarily means to speak God's word. And the CC, for one, has a legacy of visionaries-the real thing for those with the little bravado it might take to read them.
But no new revelation. Only that which may serve to clarify the faith, and edify, encourage, and build up the faithful.

 

[BobRyan]

To prophecy primarily means to speak God's word.

Not in the actual Bible. In the actual Bible - teachers and preachers teach the word of God - scripture as it is written. But prophet speak to God directly - they speak "from God" by direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit - according to Peter.