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St. Paul Demonstrating Sola Scriptura In Scripture

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BobRyan

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But no new revelation.

1 Cor 14 "each one has a revelation"

The man-made-tradition of "no new revelation" is not found in scripture for the 1 Cor 12 gift of prophecy.

Isaiah 8:20 is the "sola scriptura" testing doctrine found even in the OT -

Just as Christ teaches it in Mark 7:6-13

Just as we find it in Acts 17:11.

But never does the sola scriptura doctrine in scripture say "once we delete all of God's prophets then we can have sola scriptura testing".

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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I can't imagine where I said that no writer had anything inspired to say after Christ ascended. The inspiration had to remain, since they wrote years later.

you limit it to "private revelation" when in fact that actual Bible says it is public - it is for the entire church - it is not at all "private revelation"
 
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fhansen

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you limit it to "private revelation" when in fact that actual Bible says it is public - it is for the entire church - it is not at all "private revelation"
Its private in that these revelations, while enormously profound, are privately experienced, as opposed to the direct revelation of God: Jesus Christ's public incarnation where the light entered the world and showed forth the reality and full glory of God-and of His will for man. This doesn't mean that we, as individuals, can't grow by virtue of that light as we choose to enter into it-or that the HS doesn't inspire us personally in various ways. And, yes, the specific gifts mentioned are for the benefit of the whole church and the advancement of God's kingdom in some manner; He doesn't grant them carelessly.
 
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BobRyan

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Its private in that these revelations, while enormously profound, are privately experienced, as opposed to the direct revelation of God:

John states he received "direct revelation from God" in Rev 1 -- was John "Wrong"??

Numbers 12:6 explains how prophecy works. God Himself contacts the prophet

2Peter 1:19-21 explains how it works. The Holy Spirit directly inspires them such that they "speak from GOD"

Are all these texts "Wrong"??
 
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BobRyan

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One definition of SS that was given to me by Standing Up is "the Bible is the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice" but the passage in Acts 17 does not say that or anything remotely like that. .

until you read the details in the text and notice that EVEN the teaching of the Apostles themselves - in person - is "tested" sola scriptura just as Paul said it should be in his statement in Gal 1:6-9
 
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BobRyan

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Where does holy scripture say that saint Paul read the old testament to learn about Jesus Christ? I think you made that up.

As it turns out - Paul was a student of the scriptures and this is reported about his teaching over and over again.

Those who think Paul was not studying scripture may speculate that point for us - but it only survives to a certain point.

until you read Acts 17:1-5.

until you read Acts 18:1-6

until you read how Paul the "messianic Jew" - made his case for the gospel and testified under oath as to his actual practice.


Acts 21
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law


Acts 24
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets



Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.;



Acts 26
Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come; 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles;


Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening
 
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fhansen

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John states he received "direct revelation from God" in Rev 1 -- was John "Wrong"??

Numbers 12:6 explains how prophecy works. God Himself contacts the prophet

2Peter 1:19-21 explains how it works. The Holy Spirit directly inspires them such that they "speak from GOD"

Are all these texts "Wrong"??
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt; you're being puposefully obtuse. The public revelation I was talking about was direct to the world. But, duh, yes, private revelation is direct as well, to the receiver. They're still very rare, and often lied about or are even possibly demonic in some instances. Joseph Smith, for example, did not receive them, did not speak for God. Neither did the many 19th & 20th century "prophets" who've falsely predicted the end of the world.
 
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BobRyan

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I'll give you the benefit of the doubt; you're being puposefully obtuse. The public revelation I was talking about was direct to the world. But, duh, yes, private revelation is direct as well, to the receiver. They're still very rare, and often lied about

You are not giving any Bible support for anything in your story. Please provide something like Bible evidence for "to the world" for Moses but "not to the world" for John. -- "To the world" with Isaiah but not with Paul.

etc.

or are even possibly demonic in some instances. Joseph Smith, for example, did not receive them, did not speak for God.

Smith was a false prophet - not because we don't "like him" but because what he said fails the test of scripture - sola scriptura testing. "If they speak not according to this WORD there is no light in them" Is 8:20

Same goes for any prophets that falsely set a date for the end of the world claiming it as a divine revelation from God. (They can have a bad guess - in other words - not alknowing, but to claim that the date for the world ending is coming directly from God -- where it is God claiming the second coming is to be on that date - then becomes a "test")

On Palm Sunday the disciples declared Jesus was coming to reign as king in Jerusalem. They were wrong - but were not false prophets.
 
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Standing Up

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Where does holy scripture say that saint Paul read the old testament to learn about Jesus Christ? I think you made that up.
I think there there's a failure to understand Christ who said
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Does a fear of SS keep you from reading these things?
 
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ivebeenshown

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I think there there's a failure to understand Christ who said
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Does a fear of SS keep you from reading these things?
I assure you, we have read those things, but we also know that those things pertain to what is called the Old Testament. So what of the New Testament, or what of the extra-scriptural tradition which defines the compilation of either the Old or New Testaments?
 
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fhansen

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You are not giving any Bible support for anything in your story. Please provide something like Bible evidence for "to the world" for Moses but "not to the world" for John.
Why should I? John's revelation became part of God's public revelation at the onset of Christianity-as it was received as having that purpose by the church and proclaimed by her as such. We also accept Paul's revelations in the same manner-which obviously were influential in his and therefore our understanding of the gospel.
Smith was a false prophet - not because we don't "like him" but because what he said fails the test of scripture - sola scriptura testing. "If they speak not according to this WORD there is no light in them" Is 8:20
Ok? Don't recall saying I didn't like him-even though I'll admit that I certainly don't think much of him.

You wish to maintain that whole new revelation can be added to what was once and for all delivered to the saints. But nothing more is needed with God's New Covenant, having the purpose of man's salvation. Nothing new to be revealed until Christ comes again. 1 Tim 6:14, Titus 2:13
 
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BobRyan

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fhansen said:
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt; you're being puposefully obtuse. The public revelation I was talking about was direct to the world. But, duh, yes, private revelation is direct as well, to the receiver. They're still very rare, and often lied about

You are not giving any Bible support for anything in your story. Please provide something like Bible evidence for "to the world" for Moses but "not to the world" for John. -- "To the world" with Isaiah but not with Paul.

etc.

Without actual support for your wild speculation - there is no compelling reason for the "objective unbiased reader" to take them seriously.

Care to give some "substance" for the guesswork??

Why should I?


John's revelation became part of God's public revelation at the onset of Christianity

Because someone other than John became aware of it? Because it was promoted - just as Paul said was being done in 1Cor 14 "when you come together... EACH ONE has a revelation"??


John's revelation became part of God's public revelation at the onset of Christianity
-as it was received as having that purpose by the church and proclaimed by her as such. We also accept Paul's revelations in the same manner-which obviously were influential in his and therefore our understanding of the gospel.

So then when Agabus gives his prophetic statement to Paul - and Paul accepts it - it is because Agabus first went to the entire world with it??

When Nathan gives his prophetic statement to David and David accepts it - it is because Nathan first went to the entire world with it so that David would know to accept it?

So then in your examples with John and Paul - you accept full well that the prophetic gift extends beyond the ascension of Christ.

Making up new rules about how prophecy works - that do not fit the actual Bible - is another way to have a man-made tradition rejected "sola scriptura".

Ok? Don't recall saying I didn't like him-even though I'll admit that I certainly don't think much of him.

You wish to maintain that whole new revelation can be added to what was once and for all delivered to the saints. But nothing more is needed with God's New Covenant, having the purpose of man's salvation.

You appear to be arguing that the New Covenant was not sufficient at the resurrection of Christ - and so more prophets are on record in the NT as prophesying after Christ's resurrection.

Here again - making stuff up - will then be judged "sola scriptura" to see if the Bible actually proclaims that the New Covenant was "incomplete at the cross" ... "in complete" at the resurrection of Christ -- and that the Bible says "once the NEW Covenant is established no more gifts of the Holy Spirit pertaining to prophecy".

In other words "making stuff up" is easy to "test sola scriptura".


Nothing new to be revealed until Christ comes again. 1 Tim 6:14, Titus 2:13

A great example of a statement we do NOT find in 1Tim 6:14 or Titus 2:13. hence MORE scripture written AFTER 1 Tim 6:14 and after Titus 2:13.

in Christ,

Bob


Nothing new to be revealed until Christ comes again. 1 Tim 6:14, Titus 2:13
 
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fhansen

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You are not giving any Bible support for anything in your story. Please provide something like Bible evidence for "to the world" for Moses but "not to the world" for John. -- "To the world" with Isaiah but not with Paul.
I'll repeat again for your benefit. John's revelation was part of that which was given with Christ's advent-so it was public. Why? Because the church received it as such. Why is the NT canon what it is? Because the church received it as such.
Without actual support for your wild speculation - there is no compelling reason for the "objective unbiased reader" to take them seriously.

Care to give some "substance" for the guesswork??

Because someone other than John became aware of it? Because it was promoted - just as Paul said was being done in 1Cor 14 "when you come together... EACH ONE has a revelation"??

So then when Agabus gives his prophetic statement to Paul - and Paul accepts it - it is because Agabus first went to the entire world with it??

When Nathan gives his prophetic statement to David and David accepts it - it is because Nathan first went to the entire world with it so that David would know to accept it?
No, even many of Jesus's words weren't spoken publicly-to the world directly, but were revealed by the writers of the NT and therefore became part of the public revelation. There's simply a body of beliefs and teachings that were made known or revealed at the onset of Christianity that the church accepted as the revelation God meant for man to have for the purpose of his salvation. Is that difficult to understand for some reason? Is there some reason that the Church of God should accept your personal opinion and private interpretations as correct, interpretations that diverge from much of Christianity BTW, not just RC?
So then in your examples with John and Paul - you accept full well that the prophetic gift extends beyond the ascension of Christ.
I never said otherwise. I maintain that those were given in conjunction with Christ's first advent, nothing to do with His ascension.
Making up new rules about how prophecy works - that do not fit the actual Bible - is another way to have a man-made tradition rejected "sola scriptura".
SS doesn't work-or else SDA should be in harmony with the rest of SS adherents, who also don't necessarily harmonize with each other. The only way Scripture can be understood fully, in the Spirit in which it was written, is for God to grant that understanding. Non-biblical documents, such as the creeds or concilliar decrees such as those concerned with the Trinity at Nicea were made in that same Spirit, correctly discerning Scripture together with the traditions, the experience, the Church as a whole had undergone or received.
You appear to be arguing that the New Covenant was not sufficient at the resurrection of Christ - and so more prophets are on record in the NT as prophesying after Christ's resurrection.
No, you seem to be arguing that-and that even more are needed now. All revelation that occurred in conjunction with Christs advent were given by Him for His purposes. No more are needed.
Here again - making stuff up - will then be judged "sola scriptura" to see if the Bible actually proclaims that the New Covenant was "incomplete at the cross" ... "in complete" at the resurrection of Christ -- and that the Bible says "once the NEW Covenant is established no more gifts of the Holy Spirit pertaining to prophecy".
I never said gifts ceased. They are still important, including private revelations, at God's discretion. I said "no new revelation", in that nothing new is needed to be revealed for our understanding of the gospel/salvation; Christ's work was complete. This doesn't mean He doesn't continue to communicate with us today.
In other words "making stuff up" is easy to "test sola scriptura".
SS doesn't work. The church received a gift 2 millenia ago. She knows what it is-she knew what it was then, before a word of the NT was written-and she continues to hold, preserve, and proclaim it even as her members may fumble and fail and disappoint greatly at times, failing to benefit from it or be changed by it, failing to heed its message. But it doesn't help at all for someone to come along years later, pick up and read the bible and then begin to make what, for all practical purposes, amount to infallible pronouncements on its meaning, perhaps also claiming to receive new, critical revelation, perhaps also asserting themselves to be the authentic restored or continuation of the true church.
 
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Standing Up

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I assure you, we have read those things, but we also know that those things pertain to what is called the Old Testament. So what of the New Testament, or what of the extra-scriptural tradition which defines the compilation of either the Old or New Testaments?
So, do we agree that Christ modeled SS for us regarding the transition from old to new? If so, then at last, we might move into the NT accounts. Your fellow RCers simply can't acknowledge what is so obvious to everyone else.
 
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fhansen

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So, do we agree that Christ modeled SS for us regarding the transition from old to new? If so, then at last, we might move into the NT accounts. Your fellow RCers simply can't acknowledge what is so obvious to everyone else.
What's been demonstrated is that Scripture is very important to the Church, as a source of revelation, as God's Word, and that a third party, an agent designated by and guided by God, is critical in understanding and explaining it.
 
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ivebeenshown

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So, do we agree that Christ modeled SS for us regarding the transition from old to new?
No. Though Jesus explained Scripture regarding himself, that did not nullify his own words which were not Scripture at the time. Though Paul and Philip and others explained prophecies of the Old Testament and others verified those claims against the Old Testament, there were things which were spoken and not written. Paul spoke to the Thessalonians of things before he eventually wrote them, and there is no guarantee in Scripture that all things were recorded in Scripture, nor is there any guarantee in Scripture that each of the writings we accept as Scripture is actually Scripture.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Where does holy scripture say that saint Paul read the old testament to learn about Jesus Christ? I think you made that up.
I think there there's a failure to understand Christ who said
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Does a fear of SS keep you from reading these things?
Then he told them, 'This is what I meant when I said, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses, in the Prophets and in the Psalms, was destined to be fulfilled.' He then opened their minds to understand the scriptures, and he said to them, 'So it is written that the Christ would suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that, in his name, repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be preached to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses to this.
(Luke 24:44-48 NJB)
The passage that you quoted is addressed to the apostles many years before saint Paul had his Damascus Road vision of the Lord Jesus Christ. Did you not notice that the passage is not about saint Paul?​
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Standing Up said:
I think there there's a failure to understand Christ who said
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Does a fear of SS keep you from reading these things?
Then he told them, 'This is what I meant when I said, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses, in the Prophets and in the Psalms, was destined to be fulfilled.'
He then opened their minds to understand the scriptures, and he said to them, 'So it is written that the Christ would suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that, in his name, repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be preached to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses to this.

(Luke 24:44-48 NJB)
The passage that you quoted is addressed to the apostles any years before saint Paul had his Damascus Road vision of the Lord Jesus Christ. Did you not notice that the passage is not about saint Paul?​
True. But ya gotta admit Paul did suffer a lot after his conversion to Jesus.
[I wonder where Christianity would be w/o my bro, Saul/Paul]

Acts 9:
15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."

2Corin 11:24
23 Are they servants of Christ?-- I speak as if insane--
I more so; in far more labors, in far more imprisonments, beaten times without number, often in danger of death.
24 Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep.…
26 I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren
27 I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure
28 Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure on me of concern for all the churches




.
 
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Fireinfolding

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Jesus speaks here of those things,

Luke 24:25-27 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Peter speaks here of those things

Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Paul speaks here of those things

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
 
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