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St. Paul Demonstrating Sola Scriptura In Scripture

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LittleLambofJesus

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"Infallible entity" has nothing to do with it. It was a later construct. *cough* Sorry; "development."

People got together and hashed it out. What's the surprise? And it still stands.
The divisions today, often cited in ridiculous terms like 30,000 (or more) denoms, are tiny compared to anything on the table at that time.
Really?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Luke 16:21 and yearning to be satisfied from the crumbs, the-ones falling from the table of the Rich-one,
but also the dogs coming licked the sores of him

Romans 11:9 And David is saying 'let be being become! the table of them into a trap and into a mesh and into a snare and into a recompense to them.
[psalm 69:22/Daniel 11:9/Luke 16:21]


images
 
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whitetiger1

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I had two threads on this. I'm still waiting

Some lean to the 'magic puppet theory' that the church (already 'apostate') was just manipulated by God to produce it - which still doesn't show how the people would know the bible was true.
I had two too, no straight answer expect for a couple honest folk that acknowledge big bad tradition played a part
 
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Montalban

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People got together and hashed it out. What's the surprise? And it still stands. The divisions today, often cited in ridiculous terms like 30,000 (or more) denoms, are tiny compared to anything on the table at that time.

Not ridiculous. Just say, for arguments sake that conservatively there were only 200 different Protestant denominations, that's ignoring a vast group of people who are Protestant non-attached to any church.

They are a church of one, or two, or maybe a whole family that aren't recognised for legal purposes as a 'separate' church, but they are not part of any church.

That takes the number back up
 
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Standing Up

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I'm still not biting cause I really am trying to find out an answer you seemingly don't want to give. I'm asking you a direct question of two occurrences and how you resolve them today. IF they couldn't resolve them back then without the need of a visible, infallible entity to get it straight than how do you expect the same thing to be resolved today. You really think that God and the Apostles didn't see it coming, even when it happened in their time. Or they did and now it's every sS Christian for him/herself. Then you continue to say that Holy Spirit + self interpreting Scriptures + self interpreting early CF writings = true doctrine.

If that first Council could figure it out, and even give an example from the OT in the process, then why couldn't anybody else if they had LIKE YOU, the very same Holy Spirit guiding them to All Truths.

I've tried to answer your question, but I must not be understanding it. So, let me ask you something (or feel free to rephrase and ask again) that may help.

Do you think the sect of Pharisees who believed folded their tents and went home after Acts 15?

Since a Council is the suggested solution, what was different between Acts 15 and Nicea?
 
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iLogos

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When the Apostles met per Acts 15, what scripture were they basing their meeting on?

God's Word, Jesus was the Word (Scripture). The verbal word of the gospel as revealed to them thru the Holy Spirit or by eye witness accounts, or by Jesus Himself. And finally prophecies from the past written down and read.

What do you suppose they based their meeting on? Tradition :)
 
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Montalban

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God's Word, Jesus was the Word (Scripture).
Jesus was and is the Word incarnate, not scripture.

Jesus isn't confined to what's in writing, even the last verse of John's Gospel says that he did and said more. For you, this must be trivial or irrelevant sayings because they're not written down

The verbal word of the gospel as revealed to them thru the Holy Spirit or by eye witness accounts, or by Jesus Himself. And finally prophecies from the past written down and read.

The only thing recorded that they read related to brining in Gentiles, not that circumcision should end.

When they send off their decision they don't cite scriptures.
What do you suppose they based their meeting on? Tradition

What they did is the basis of tradition, that is, using the charism given to them by Christ (as Jesus only picked a few of the many to teach) and also knowing what Jesus said and did – they experienced Jesus in person, not just in a book, they understood what the message was.
 
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SolomonVII

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What qualifies some thing to be "tradition"? Doing it once before? Or just doing it once? I think you view tradition differently then I do. This may just be a definition issue.

There have been many traditions over the years. Depending on which church, the traditions that are considered valid vary. In the end the bishops decide for you what tradition is.

some people like to have the bishops decide for them.
 
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SolomonVII

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So you admit that when Christ Breathed the Holy Spirit on the Apostles, it was a tad bit more special than when you received Him? You know, since they were Infallible and all. ;)

To be a member of this forum, we have to agree to believe in the one, holy. catholic and apostolic Church.

Spirit is Spirit, and Spirit alone is infallible.
Apostolic teachings however are paramount for General Theology, and the essentials of apostolic teaching are contained in scripture.
Traditions, to the extent that they follow apostles teachings, have some authenticity.

Many traditions do not however, but follow the personal revelations of the authorities of this or that church.

Some even go contrary to apostolic teaching.
 
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Montalban

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There have been many traditions over the years. Depending on which church, the traditions that are considered valid vary. In the end the bishops decide for you what tradition is.

some people like to have the bishops decide for them.

What traditions have your bishops decided in?
 
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patience7

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When the Apostles met per Acts 15, what scripture were they basing their meeting on?
Lets look at context:
15:1 . . . Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2) When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.. . . 5) But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6) And the apostles and the elders came together for to consider of this matter. . . . .13). . .James answered saying Men and brethren hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the the words of the prophets; as it is written . . . v16-18 19) Wherefore (because of what was written) my sentence is. . . .

So based on "the words of the prophets as it is written" the decision was made.

Also, btw, the Pharisees in v5 are the same sect of Pharisees written of in the gospels that "followed the traditions of men."

A sect that seems to have started after the Jewish exile. In addition to OT books the Pharisees recognised in oral tradition a standard of belief and life. They sought for distinction and praise by outward observance of external rites and by outward forms of piety, and such as ceremonial washings, fastings, prayers, and alms giving; and, comparatively negligent of genuine piety, they prided themselves on their fancied good works. They held strenuously to a belief in the existence of good and evil angels, and to the expectation of a Messiah; and they cherished the hope that the dead, after a preliminary experience either of reward or of penalty in Hades, would be recalled to life by him, and be requited each according to his individual deeds. In opposition to the usurped dominion of the Herods and the rule of the Romans, they stoutly upheld the theocracy and their country's cause, and possessed great influence with the common people. According to Josephus they numbered more than 6000. They were bitter enemies of Jesus and his cause; and were in turn severely rebuked by him for their avarice, ambition, hollow reliance on outward works, and affection of piety in order to gain popularity.
See also: Matt. 3:7, 5:20, 15:1-6; Mk 2:16,18,24, 3:6, 7:1,3,5 etc. And there are many more verses concerning these Pharisees.
 
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Standing Up

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-snip-

Also, btw, the Pharisees in v5 are the same sect of Pharisees written of in the gospels that "followed the traditions of men."

See also: Matt. 3:7, 5:20, 15:1-6; Mk 2:16,18,24, 3:6, 7:1,3,5 etc. And there are many more verses concerning these Pharisees.

Sorta interesting they were associated with James the Lord's brother. Any idea their continued involvement with Christianity?
 
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patience7

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Sorta interesting they were associated with James the Lord's brother. Any idea their continued involvement with Christianity?
I'm not sure I know what you mean but it seems to me they were always around to cause dissension!
 
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visionary

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A More Jewish Version of St. Paul

Today’s idea: St. Paul, the apostle long considered the progenitor of anti-Semitism, never left the Jewish faith, a new generation of scholars argues.


Paul by el Greco
Religion | Funny, some might say archly, he didn’t act Jewish.

But just as historians have uncovered a more Jewish version of Jesus in recent decades, a new crop of “Pauline revisionists” have “discovered a more Jewish Paul, a product of the same place and time,” writes Judith Shulevitz in Tablet. She counts among the revisionists the historian Garry Wills and Pamela Eisenbaum, a New Testament scholar and author of a new book, “Paul Was Not a Christian.”

A More Jewish Version of St. Paul - NYTimes.com
 
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