St. Paul Demonstrating Sola Scriptura In Scripture

[razeontherock]

I find it amazing any one would put any thing over scripture short of direct contact with an apostle, angel, or Jesus Himself! Yet this is what we are debating here?

I'll see you that and raise you, that Jesus Himself wouldn't contradict Scripture. (He does have a wonderful way of removing our own misconceptions of it, though)

 

[razeontherock]

Acts 15 - and still Peter backslided later on

What is this that Peter "backslided?"

 

[iLogos]

Apparently popes back slide

 

[Kepha]

In order to show us what the pattern is. Discuss, evidence, does it line up? It is written.

Among the sola Scripture faithful (how you view history) who had the same Holy Spirit, it was already disputed, already discussed, no conclusion. Apostles and Elders had to do something about it, get together, done deal, then binded on the faithful. This is not the case today no? I asked you previously how you settle them for today as you have the same Holy Spirit that the original communities who disputed it had, however they needed a higher authority. What about you? We're constantly hearing from non denominational sola Scripture adherants "The Holy Spirit leads us" yet that wasn't the case in Acts.

No idea how others settle disputes. I try to use scripture and earliest tradition.

Sure, self interprets Scripture, like self interprets early Church Fathers, then self believes self is being lead by the Holy Spirit to conclude he has the important doctrines lined up yet this wasn't good enough in NT times as they needed a binding Infallible Council to settle the matter. Something is amiss and it appears God left the poor future sS faithful to create quite the mess for themselves as we see today.

 

[Kepha]

I find it amazing any one would put any thing over scripture short of direct contact with an apostle, angel, or Jesus Himself! Yet this is what we are debating here?

So you admit that when Christ Breathed the Holy Spirit on the Apostles, it was a tad bit more special than when you received Him? You know, since they were Infallible and all.

 

[razeontherock]

So you admit that when Christ Breathed the Holy Spirit on the Apostles, it was a tad bit more special than when you received Him? You know, since they were Infallible and all.

So wait, now a property of the Person of the Holy Spirit is the law of diminishing returns? He's not really Eternal?!?

I'd consider myself on very thin ice, positing such a notion.

 

[Montalban]

Apparently popes back slide

 

[Kepha]

So wait, now a property of the Person of the Holy Spirit is the law of diminishing returns? He's not really Eternal?!?

I'd consider myself on very thin ice, positing such a notion.

Love the strawman.

 

[whitetiger1]

I find it amazing any one would put any thing over scripture short of direct contact with an apostle, angel, or Jesus Himself! Yet this is what we are debating here?

So how did Scripture come about?

 

[iLogos]

So you admit that when Christ Breathed the Holy Spirit on the Apostles, it was a tad bit more special than when you received Him? You know, since they were Infallible and all.

I admit it was different as it is for every one. I'm in no position to measure the level of special for each, are you? And I never said they were infallible either

 

[Montalban]

So how did Scripture come about?

I had two threads on this. I'm still waiting

Some lean to the 'magic puppet theory' that the church (already 'apostate') was just manipulated by God to produce it - which still doesn't show how the people would know the bible was true.

 

[Kepha]

And I never said they were infallible either

Then the NT is suspect along with the NT Church teachings before the full Canon was written.

 

[Standing Up]

Among the sola Scripture faithful (how you view history) who had the same Holy Spirit, it was already disputed, already discussed, no conclusion. Apostles and Elders had to do something about it, get together, done deal, then binded on the faithful. This is not the case today no? I asked you previously how you settle them for today as you have the same Holy Spirit that the original communities who disputed it had, however they needed a higher authority. What about you? We're constantly hearing from non denominational sola Scripture adherants "The Holy Spirit leads us" yet that wasn't the case in Acts.

Yes, they got together and the conclusion pleased the whole church. That hasn't happened since.


Originally Posted by Standing Up

No idea how others settle disputes. I try to use scripture and earliest tradition.
​

Sure, self interprets Scripture, like self interprets early Church Fathers, then self believes self is being lead by the Holy Spirit to conclude he has the important doctrines lined up yet this wasn't good enough in NT times as they needed a binding Infallible Council to settle the matter. Something is amiss and it appears God left the poor future sS faithful to create quite the mess for themselves as we see today.

That's what you got out of my using scripture and earliest tradition? You realize that is what the very early church also did, right? They traced back a belief to its source to determine its apostolic veracity.

What I'm finding in these conversations, however, is an unwillingness by people to do the same. Or when it is done, they reject the early tradition for a later, developed tradition.

So, the bottom line here is groups actually use neither scripture or tradition for their beliefs, but only what the bishops ended up believing for some reason or another.

 

[razeontherock]

So you admit that when Christ Breathed the Holy Spirit on the Apostles, it was a tad bit more special than when you received Him? You know, since they were Infallible and all.

Love the strawman.

Not a strawman at all - it's exactly what you're saying. All you need do is realize the ramifications of what you're saying ...

 

[razeontherock]

Yes, they got together and the conclusion pleased the whole church. That hasn't happened since.


Originally Posted by Standing Up

No idea how others settle disputes. I try to use scripture and earliest tradition.
​

That's what you got out of my using scripture and earliest tradition? You realize that is what the very early church also did, right? They traced back a belief to its source to determine its apostolic veracity.

What I'm finding in these conversations, however, is an unwillingness by people to do the same. Or when it is done, they reject the early tradition for a later, developed tradition.

So, the bottom line here is groups actually use neither scripture or tradition for their beliefs, but only what the bishops ended up believing for some reason or another.

EXACTLY! And for some reason, people want to tie this into not knowing that Scripture is reliable?

Will It Go Round In Circles Billy Preston 1971 1973 - YouTube

 

[iLogos]

Then the NT is suspect along with the NT Church teachings before the full Canon was written.

did u forget to include the scripture reference for your claim?

 

[Kepha]

That's what you got out of my using scripture and earliest tradition? You realize that is what the very early church also did, right? They traced back a belief to its source to determine its apostolic veracity.

What I'm finding in these conversations, however, is an unwillingness by people to do the same. Or when it is done, they reject the early tradition for a later, developed tradition.

So, the bottom line here is groups actually use neither scripture or tradition for their beliefs, but only what the bishops ended up believing for some reason or another.

I'm still not biting cause I really am trying to find out an answer you seemingly don't want to give. I'm asking you a direct question of two occurrences and how you resolve them today. IF they couldn't resolve them back then without the need of a visible, infallible entity to get it straight than how do you expect the same thing to be resolved today. You really think that God and the Apostles didn't see it coming, even when it happened in their time. Or they did and now it's every sS Christian for him/herself. Then you continue to say that Holy Spirit + self interpreting Scriptures + self interpreting early CF writings = true doctrine.

If that first Council could figure it out, and even give an example from the OT in the process, then why couldn't anybody else if they had LIKE YOU, the very same Holy Spirit guiding them to All Truths.

Not a strawman at all - it's exactly what you're saying. All you need do is realize the ramifications of what you're saying ...

I never said the Holy Spirit was diminishing at all. If in fact that's what you were getting at.

EXACTLY! And for some reason, people want to tie this into not knowing that Scripture is reliable?

It wasn't, unless an infallible entity got involved.

 

[iLogos]

then u have no scripture reference, if u do please provide it and we can have a discussion.

 

[razeontherock]

"Infallible entity" has nothing to do with it. It was a later construct. *cough* Sorry; "development."

People got together and hashed it out. What's the surprise? And it still stands. The divisions today, often cited in ridiculous terms like 30,000 (or more) denoms, are tiny compared to anything on the table at that time.

 

[SolomonVII]

......
Being sure isn't the same as being right......