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St. Paul Demonstrating Sola Scriptura In Scripture

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Albion

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The problem is that under Sola Scriptura, Swedenborg and the Jehovah's Witnesses came to their power USING Sola Scriptura.
What power? :doh:

Anyway, I have to point out:

1) that this ^ is not correct to say. Swedenborg, for instance, based his theology on a claimed vision of heaven, not upon a study of the Bible, and

2) that you still don't understand -- or are pretending not to understand -- the meaning of Sola Scriptura.

It does not mean that everyone is guaranteed not to misunderstand anything in Scripture or misuse it. It means that it--the Bible--is the ultimate authority, as opposed to all other ways men have used in the attempt to ascertain God's will and intention for us.

Sola Scriptura stole the authority to combat heresy from the Protestants because heretics can and do claim to be simply teaching the Bible truth.
That's not credible. Sola Scriptura didn't "steal" anything because it's nothing more than a commitment to trust the word of God. "It" neither makes possible heresy nor encourages it. In fact, when did greatest schisms and heresies in all church history take place? That's right; it was while "Tradition" was considered the guide rather than the Bible!
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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And yet Sola Scriptura stole the authority to combat heresy from the Protestants because heretics can and do claim to be simply teaching the Bible truth.
Well, now that I think about it, it isn't sola scriptura that is the problem, as it is the christians who interpret scripture poorly and abuse the doctrine of sola scriptura to justify their non-christian actions and doctrines.
 
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Albion

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Well, now that I think about it, it isn't sola scriptura that is the problem, as it is the christians who interpret scripture poorly and abuse the doctrine of sola scriptura to justify their non-christian actions and doctrines.

:clap:
 
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fhansen

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What power? :doh:

Anyway, I have to point out:

1) that this ^ is not correct to say. Swedenborg, for instance, based his theology on a claimed vision of heaven, not upon a study of the Bible, and

2) that you still don't understand -- or are pretending not to understand -- the meaning of Sola Scriptura.

It does not mean that everyone is guaranteed not to misunderstand anything in Scripture or misuse it. It means that it--the Bible--is the ultimate authority, as opposed to all other ways men have used in the attempt to ascertain God's will and intention for us.
Can anyone give us the correct methodology for determining Scriptural truth though? How do we know when one interpretation is correct and another is not once we've acknowledged that the doctrine, itself, guarantees no certainty regarding the faith. We have this great authority, this great resource of truth; the bible. Who will interpret it-or who does interpret it correctly?
 
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fhansen

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Well, now that I think about it, it isn't sola scriptura that is the problem, as it is the christians who interpret scripture poorly and abuse the doctrine of sola scriptura to justify their non-christian actions and doctrines.
So then who are they who interpret it poorly and abuse the doctrine? Just whoever disagrees with you?
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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I wish I had a solution to that sort of thing, but It is 99% an american cultural problem from what I can tell. It won't ever stop in America. American culture loves to mold things to itself, and not mold itself to things. SO people interpret scripture to try and "fix" the faith, when in reality they are just making it something else, something unchristian.
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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So who are they who interpret it poorly and abuse the doctrine? Just whoever disagrees with you?
Just follow the simple rules of understanding context:
Who was the person who wrote it?
Who were the people they were originally writing to?
What are they saying to these people?
How do I apply this to the world I live in today?
 
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fhansen

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Just follow the simple rules of understanding context:
Who was the person who wrote it?
Who were the people they were originally writing to?
What are they saying to these people?
How do I apply this to the world I live in today?
Would you disagree that sincere people, including biblical scholars, often disagree on significant points of doctrine, going by SS?
 
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sculleywr

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What power? :doh:

Anyway, I have to point out:

1) that this ^ is not correct to say. Swedenborg, for instance, based his theology on a claimed vision of heaven, not upon a study of the Bible, and

2) that you still don't understand -- or are pretending not to understand -- the meaning of Sola Scriptura.

It does not mean that everyone is guaranteed not to misunderstand anything in Scripture or misuse it. It means that it--the Bible--is the ultimate authority, as opposed to all other ways men have used in the attempt to ascertain God's will and intention for us.


That's not credible. Sola Scriptura didn't "steal" anything because it's nothing more than a commitment to trust the word of God. "It" neither makes possible heresy nor encourages it. In fact, when did greatest schisms and heresies in all church history take place? That's right; it was while "Tradition" was considered the guide rather than the Bible!
I understand Sola Scriptura as it is taught by the Southern Baptist Convention and as it is taught by Martin Luther. Martin Luther had a stricter definition, but the definition held by the largest group of the largest Protestant denomination is much more broad and it is this definition which enables heresy. Any heretic can claim to simply be teaching what the Bible says and you have no authority to say otherwise. Protestants have yet to mount a unified and effective rebuke of heresy. Yet when schisms happened, the Church responded relatively quickly (given the lack of internet and motorized transport, the response was near instant for the time). Today, the Orthodox Church is still one of the fastest to respond to new ideas and heresies, with official responses being published within days from the Patriarchs, twice a year from diocesan synods, and every five years from pan-orthodox synods. The issues in Syria have been responded to with the same speed, as the IOCC is now helping 2 million refugees throughout the Middle East, including jobs, housing, healthcare, and schooling, and several million people who are displaced within Syria in like manner, rebuilding apartments, schools, hospitals, and employing the refugees in those efforts alongside their own volunteers and staff.

The unity and alacrity of Orthodox response has historically only been rivaled by the Romans, who had more resources than the East.
 
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sculleywr

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Well, now that I think about it, it isn't sola scriptura that is the problem, as it is the christians who interpret scripture poorly and abuse the doctrine of sola scriptura to justify their non-christian actions and doctrines.
Either way, it is much more difficult to use the Tradition of a unified Church than it is to use simply Scripture alone. For one, the Orthodox Church will quickly excommunicate any member that starts teaching heresy, and if a new heresy is invented by outsiders, attempting to use the Apostolic Tradition to justify it, we will also quickly respond. It is this that has kept Orthodoxy without change in known history. Protestant denominations have done nothing but change. Most of the denominations today wouldn't be possible without innovations that occurred since the Reformation. This results in making Christianity sound like an Eminem song. Will the real Christianity please stand up? please stand up? please stand up?
 
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sculleywr

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Just follow the simple rules of understanding context:
Who was the person who wrote it?
Who were the people they were originally writing to?
What are they saying to these people?
How do I apply this to the world I live in today?
In many cases the answer with Scripture is:
1. I don't know
2. I don't know
3. How I understand what they say
4. How I choose to apply it.

Protestant exegesis is centric on the individual, while Orthodox exegesis is Church-Centric
The first 3 questions are the same, but the fourth question becomes:

How has the Church always understood this passage?
 
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redleghunter

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And yet Sola Scriptura stole the authority to combat heresy from the Protestants because heretics can and do claim to be simply teaching the Bible truth.

With cults and heretics it is usually the Bible "plus" something else. Or some of the Bible and something else. That is why it was easy for the church fathers to refute them, and for us today to refute JWs, Mormons, Oneness Pentecostals, easy believism etc.

As @Albion mentioned up thread SS is not what most make argue it to be. Traditions are fine but must conform to the Holy Spirit inspired Sacred Scriptures.

As @PeaceByJesus pointed out there ARE many Protestant and Evangelical denominations but on core beliefs there is not much difference. Differences in worship styles and focuses on gifts seems to be the larger divides in Evangelicals. I notice such being a former Roman Catholic.
 
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sculleywr

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With cults and heretics it is usually the Bible "plus" something else. Or some of the Bible and something else. That is why it was easy for the church fathers to refute them, and for us today to refute JWs, Mormons, Oneness Pentecostals, easy believism etc.

As @Albion mentioned up thread SS is not what most make argue it to be. Traditions are fine but must conform to the Holy Spirit inspired Sacred Scriptures.

As @PeaceByJesus pointed out there ARE many Protestant and Evangelical denominations but on core beliefs there is not much difference. Differences in worship styles and focuses on gifts seems to be the larger divides in Evangelicals. I notice such being a former Roman Catholic.
As I said. Soteriology is apparently not a core belief, then, because that is a HUGE division in Protestantism.

That is not true unity. The kind of unity you speak of is relativism, pure and simple. There are dozens of gospels being offered by Protestant denominations. And yet they are all to be considered true?

That's just plainly rejecting the command of Paul regarding those who come to you with a different gospel. According to you, the gospel is not about salvation.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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As I said. Soteriology is apparently not a core belief, then, because that is a HUGE division in Protestantism.

That is not true unity. The kind of unity you speak of is relativism, pure and simple. There are dozens of gospels being offered by Protestant denominations. And yet they are all to be considered true?

That's just plainly rejecting the command of Paul regarding those who come to you with a different gospel. According to you, the gospel is not about salvation.
Does the bible have all that is necessary for salvation or does it not? Emphetically yes it does. So where's the beef?
 
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redleghunter

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As I said. Soteriology is apparently not a core belief, then, because that is a HUGE division in Protestantism.

That is not true unity. The kind of unity you speak of is relativism, pure and simple. There are dozens of gospels being offered by Protestant denominations. And yet they are all to be considered true?

That's just plainly rejecting the command of Paul regarding those who come to you with a different gospel. According to you, the gospel is not about salvation.

How is soteriolgy not a core belief in the majority of Protestant and Evangelical churches?
 
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Standing Up

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Can anyone give us the correct methodology for determining Scriptural truth though? How do we know when one interpretation is correct and another is not once we've acknowledged that the doctrine, itself, guarantees no certainty regarding the faith. We have this great authority, this great resource of truth; the bible. Who will interpret it-or who does interpret it correctly?
A breath of fresh air. Finally, someone maybe gets SS.

Now the problem is who will interpret it? As asked before, let's agree, could RC Magisterium, the interpreter, be SS?
 
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Standing Up

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With cults and heretics it is usually the Bible "plus" something else. Or some of the Bible and something else. That is why it was easy for the church fathers to refute them, and for us today to refute JWs, Mormons, Oneness Pentecostals, easy believism etc.

As @Albion mentioned up thread SS is not what most make argue it to be. Traditions are fine but must conform to the Holy Spirit inspired Sacred Scriptures.

As @PeaceByJesus pointed out there ARE many Protestant and Evangelical denominations but on core beliefs there is not much difference. Differences in worship styles and focuses on gifts seems to be the larger divides in Evangelicals. I notice such being a former Roman Catholic.
I suspect on core beliefs EO and P are closer together than RC with its 4 Marian de fide doctrines.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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The problem is that under Sola Scriptura, Swedenborg and the Jehovah's Witnesses came to their power USING Sola Scriptura. No.

No, as actually like Joe Smith and others, their veracity was and is not dependent the degree of Scriptural substantiation, which is the harder but SCriptural means of unity, but instead they basically effectively operated under the RC model of sola ecclesia, in which the leadership presumes a peculiar anointing of ensured veracity so that Scripture assuredly means what they said, and implicit assent is required.

Thus, like in cults, faithful RCs are not to objectively examine evidences in order to ascertain the veracity of official RC teaching, as "He is as sure of a truth when declared by the Catholic Church as he would be if he saw Jesus Christ standing before him and heard Him declaring it with His Own Divine lips." (Henry G. Graham, "What Faith Really Means")

...in all cases the immediate motive in the mind of a Catholic for his reception of them is, not that they are proved to him by Reason or by History, but because Revelation has declared them by means of that high ecclesiastical Magisterium which is their legitimate exponent." — John Henry Newman, “A Letter Addressed to the Duke of Norfolk on Occasion of Mr. Gladstone's Recent Expostulation.”

Which even pertains to history and tradition:
It was the charge of the Reformers that the Catholic doctrines were not primitive, and their pretension was to revert to antiquity. But the appeal to antiquity is both a treason and a heresy. It is a treason because it rejects the Divine voice of the Church at this hour, and a heresy because it denies that voice to be Divine. — Most Rev. Dr. Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, “The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost: Or Reason and Revelation”


But cults actually enforce the SE model more strictly, as Rome used to do, and thus they have more unity. It is much harder to have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. (2 Corinthians 4:2)

The Body of Christ is one Body with one Faith following one Christ. That is a narrow definition. But it is the definition of Ephesians 3.

That is true, as it refers to the corporate body of Christ consisting of only believers, and certainly does not refer to the organic church, including Rome.

he fact is that the Church did not begin substantiating everything it said with Scripture.

Actually it did, with Peter following His Lord by explaining the miracle of Pentecost from Scripture, preaching the gospel of God, "Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures," "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: " (Romans 1:2; 16:26)

And the Lord began His public ministry referencing Scripture and after His res. He substantiated from that same and opened the understanding of the disciples to it, not to tradition. And in between that time and in the preaching of the apostles all things were explicitly or implicitly subject to examination by Scripture as the supreme source.

The Lord did provide new revelation, consistent with the principal of progressive and new but conflative complementary revelation, but Rome does not claim to provide new revelation or speak as inspired writers of Scripture.

The Council in Acts directly goes against Scripture's commands to follow the dietary and physical portions of the Mosaic law,

Again your every argument is an argument against you, as that was not actually against Scripture but a fulfillment of it, as the New Covenant was "not according" to that of Mt. Sinai, and James, who provided the definitive judgment, substantiates this with Scripture.
And the decree that the Gentiles abstain “from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood” (Acts 15:20,29; cf. 21:25) was itself based upon Scripture. (Gn. 35:2; Ex. 34:15-16; Ezek. 30:30,31; Gn. 34:1,2,31; Dt. 22:28,29; 2Chron. 21:11; Gn. 9:4; Lv. 7:27; 17:13,14)

Following Sola Scriptura, the Judaizers SHOULD have won out in the Council.

Wrong, as this shows a very superficial view of Scriptural judgments and or of Scripture, as the New Covenant is clearly Scriptural, as is the principal of progressive conflative complementary revelation, which we see in Scripture and see what James said, but which Rome does not speak as wholly God-inspired men. You can only wish such things as praying to departed beings in Heaven was consistent with Scripture, versus basically adding to it what the Spirit never inspired.

Certainly, the Church Triumphant (meaning the Church comprised of those who have entered Paradise), but the Church militant (meaning those on earth) is not comprised of some nebulous, unidentifiable grouping. The Church Militant fits the definition of Ephesians 3.

What are you talking about? Eph. 3 is about the One New Man, that of the coporate body of Christ, not a particular organic church: "That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel." (Ephesians 3:6)


The next chapter speaks of offices within that church, but no church in the NT corresponds to the distinctive Catholic church. Here is a list by the grace of God.

Protestantism is many bodies with many faiths.

Esp. as the term is used by Caths, but you cannot compare one particular church with many, and cults actually are tops in unity, yet comparing the fruit under two different models is valid. And in which as said, those who esteem Scripture the most as the wholly inspired and accurate word of God testify to far greater unity than the over fruit of Rome.

Take for example Soteriology. Is Soteriology not a core doctrine?

Certainly, and one that unities evangelicals, as being justified by faith on Christ's account, not our own, with the heart being purified by faith and born again, as Peter preached, (Acts 10?:43; 15:7-11) which both Arminians and Calvinsts hold to, versus becoming good enough to be with God via sprinkling an infant and then (for most) thru purgatory later. Salvation by grace thru merit.

If you want to get more technical, such as the manner of atonement, or what the Dominicans and the Jesuits went at each other for years over, that of the reconciliation of the efficacy of grace with human freedom. "Finally, after twenty years of discussion public and private, and eighty-five conferences in the presence of the popes, the question was not solved but an end was put to the disputes." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregatio_de_Auxiliis

Being led into all Truth was put on hold, but score one for an umpire, which i do not oppose in principal.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Can anyone give us the correct methodology for determining Scriptural truth though? How do we know when one interpretation is correct and another is not once we've acknowledged that the doctrine, itself, guarantees no certainty regarding the faith. We have this great authority, this great resource of truth; the bible. Who will interpret it-or who does interpret it correctly?

Under SS the magisterial office is affirmed, such as by Westminster, and a central one is the ideal, but Rome poisons that with the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility,

But lets go back to the first century before the beginning of the church and ask your question. Under the RC model for such, who would you look to for the sure and correct methodology for determining Scriptural truth?

Why should the people have followed prophets, including a certain one with a all natural diet in the desert, when those who were in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses over Israel, (Mt. 23:2) who were the historical instruments and stewards of Scripture, "because that unto them were committed the oracles of God," (Rm. 3:2) to whom pertaineth" the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises" (Rm. 9:4) of Divine guidance, presence and perpetuation as they believed, (Gn. 12:2,3; 17:4,7,8; Ex. 19:5; Lv. 10:11; Dt. 4:31; 17:8-13; Ps, 11:4,9; Is. 41:10, Ps. 89:33,34; Jer. 7:23) </p>

And instead they followed an itinerant Preacher whom the magisterium rejected, esp. after he reproved them using Scripture as supreme, (Mk. 7:2-16) and established His Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power, as did his followers. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)

But now who can anyone give us the correct methodology for determining which interpretation of Rome is true? How do we know when one interpretation is correct and another is not. We have this great authority, this great resource of truth; the magisterium. Who will interpret it-or who does interpret it correctly?

You have a vast admixture of various beliefs all saluting the pope. One RC here recently said he thought David and Abraham was mythical, and when i asked him what he was even a RC, he said that his beliefs were not considered controversial. Until he meets one of the minority sects i suppose.

And as V2 showed how Rome can reinvent herself, then it created confusion and division, so that as one poster wryly put it,

The last time the church imposed its judgment in an authoritative manner on "areas of legitimate disagreement," the conservative Catholics became the Sedevacantists and the Society of St. Pius X, the moderate Catholics became the conservatives, the liberal Catholics became the moderates, and the folks who were excommunicated, silenced, refused Catholic burial, etc. became the liberals. The event that brought this shift was Vatican II; conservatives then couldn't handle having to actually obey the church on matters they were uncomfortable with, so they left. — Nathan, http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2005/05/fr-michael-orsi-on-different-levels-of.html

Now its off to bed.
 
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Albion

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Can anyone give us the correct methodology for determining Scriptural truth though? How do we know when one interpretation is correct and another is not once we've acknowledged that the doctrine, itself, guarantees no certainty regarding the faith. We have this great authority, this great resource of truth; the bible. Who will interpret it-or who does interpret it correctly?
Honestly, I think that would be a very worthwhile and interesting discussion. I've thought so for some time. However, it never is possible to get to that point, since every opponent of Sola Scriptura immediately begins his argument against SS by saying it's all about interpreting Scripture when it's not.

If we all agreed on what SS is, regardless of what we think of it, moving then to the topic you suggest here would seem a natural.
 
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