• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

St. Paul Demonstrating Sola Scriptura In Scripture

Status
Not open for further replies.

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟73,735.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Standing Up said:
Like I said, let's use EO scripture. Now can you practice SS? If not, why not?

We cannot, because SS is an innovation and Scripture is not always clear or self-interpreting, two major assumptions of SS. Besides that, with the fact that there is no inerrant translation of Scripture, practice of SS makes the foundation an errant translation or copy of Scripture, and not an inerrant source of authority. This is why the Pillar and Ground of Truth must be something that is not finite or limited. The only thing which is infinite or unlimited is Christ, and He is the Head member of the Church. He is the source of authority in the Church, and He is the One Who empowers the Church to fulfill its role as stated in I Timothy 3:15.

Given your "no inerrant translation of Scripture", you're hard pressed to continue quoting Scripture like 1 Tim. 3:15 as your standard.

So, let's agree to use EO Scripture and EO as the source of authority to interpret it. Now you can agree with SS. If not, why not?
 
Upvote 0

sculleywr

Orthodox Colitis Survivor
Jul 23, 2011
7,789
683
Starke, FL
✟30,069.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Others
Standing Up said:
Like I said, let's use EO scripture. Now can you practice SS? If not, why not?



Given your "no inerrant translation of Scripture", you're hard pressed to continue quoting Scripture like 1 Tim. 3:15 as your standard.

So, let's agree to use EO Scripture and EO as the source of authority to interpret it. Now you can agree with SS. If not, why not?

Objection. Asked and answered.

Objection sustained. Move on with the questioning, counselor.
 
Upvote 0

sculleywr

Orthodox Colitis Survivor
Jul 23, 2011
7,789
683
Starke, FL
✟30,069.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Others
The ability to respond intelligently is greatly reduced when we give others authority over our thought process.
So if God tells you to not believe something, I guess your intelligence is reduced by obeying Him.

Accepting the Apostolic Tradition is not giving others authority over thought process. It's understanding that there are guardrails there for a reason. The Tradition of the Church are guardrails keeping us from falling into the acid bath of heresy.
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
So if God tells you to not believe something, I guess your intelligence is reduced by obeying Him.

Accepting the Apostolic Tradition is not giving others authority over thought process. It's understanding that there are guardrails there for a reason. The Tradition of the Church are guardrails keeping us from falling into the acid bath of heresy.
If God tells me something, it is qualitatively different than you telling me what He's telling me.
I'll let you know if I need your help, thanks.
 
Upvote 0

ChristsSoldier115

Mabaho na Kuya
Jul 30, 2013
6,765
1,601
The greatest state in the Union: Ohio
✟34,002.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
In Relationship
So where is Iconography, which predates the canon, in your church? Or perhaps the liturgy, incense, and the doctrine of Synergism, which predates the canon.

This statement is nice in its concept, but having been a Baptist before converting to Orthodoxy as a result of reading and studying Church History in the first four centuries, I can say for certain that much of the Baptist dogma does not find its source in anything prior to the canon. In fact, many of their doctrines find their source in the 19th century Pietism movement.
I put baptist because I go to a baptist church. It doesn't mean I agree with everything baptist. I am no hardliner of denominations. Thats silly. Synergism.. thats the whole cooperation of our free will and divine will right? Its been awhile since I delved that deep in theology. DIdn't the EO chruch decide that iconology was bad for awhile, and then decide it was ok again? Well, how am I supposed to agree with something the EO can't firmly decide on? How long until they change their mind again?
 
Upvote 0

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟73,735.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The ability to respond intelligently is greatly reduced when we give others authority over our thought process.
True enough. I've agreed with both RC and EO now that we could use their scripture and use their authority. Can they be SS? No. Why? They've yet to come up with more straw to build their straw men.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rick Otto
Upvote 0

sculleywr

Orthodox Colitis Survivor
Jul 23, 2011
7,789
683
Starke, FL
✟30,069.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Others
If God tells me something, it is qualitatively different than you telling me what He's telling me.
I'll let you know if I need your help, thanks.
It's also the claim made by every person who leads a denominational split, the claim made by Martin Luther and Calvin, and both went in very different directions. Was the Spirit truly revealing their beliefs to them? And if so, when do we get to come to the diagnosis that God is schizophrenic?
 
Upvote 0

sculleywr

Orthodox Colitis Survivor
Jul 23, 2011
7,789
683
Starke, FL
✟30,069.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Others
I put baptist because I go to a baptist church. It doesn't mean I agree with everything baptist. I am no hardliner of denominations. Thats silly. Synergism.. thats the whole cooperation of our free will and divine will right? Its been awhile since I delved that deep in theology. DIdn't the EO chruch decide that iconology was bad for awhile, and then decide it was ok again? Well, how am I supposed to agree with something the EO can't firmly decide on? How long until they change their mind again?
No, we never agreed that IconoGRAPHY was bad. We don't study Icons. We write them (Graphia means "to write"). The opinion was forced by robber councils with puppets set up. In order for it to be the opinion of the Church, it must be accepted by the Church. This is why the Seventh Council is called Ecumenical, while the robber councils are not. This is also why the Eighth Ecumenical Council, which anathematized filioquism, is accepted in the East, but not the west, despite the fact that the Pope himself, alongside his legates, voted for the anathematization.

Your accusation of change is about as strong as rotten wood. It holds nothing up.

As to synergism, it is the belief that salvation is the result of an active relationship with God. It is not the idea that we can work for salvation, as many Protestants (especially Baptists) claim. It is the belief that the faith through which we are saved must be a living faith. It is not works of the law that enliven faith. In fact, the works themselves have nothing to do with the enlivening of Faith. It is the love in the works which enliven the faith, opening the door through which Grace enters our hearts. Through this, we proceed through the Christian life to Theosis, which is the unification of our will with the divine will, through which we gain knowledge of God, which is how we obtain eternal life.
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It's also the claim made by every person who leads a denominational split, the claim made by Martin Luther and Calvin, and both went in very different directions. Was the Spirit truly revealing their beliefs to them? And if so, when do we get to come to the diagnosis that God is schizophrenic?
It is also the claim that the Eastern Orthodox handed the RCC when the RCC tried to pull the authority card on them.

A tad ironic.

Never mind Protestants, the EO and the RCC establish "God's"* schizophrenia.


* (man's)
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
16,043
4,014
✟396,110.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
\


I'm new here and I sense there is come confusion about the history of the canon. I'll share what I know. I don't want to add to the confusion, I'm just trying to clarify matters.

As far as the NT goes, it would be naïve to assume there were only four gospels ever written. the early Christian community was very divisive, each sect probably having its own gospels. There could have been 50, 100 gospels written. Who knows? We do have 42 gnostic gospels alone, which tell a very different story about Christ, but nevertheless they are gospels and n illustration of the divisiveness in the early church. And there is also extra-biblical material that one wonders why it was never included n the canon. One major example is "Paul and the Acts of Teekel." It was quite popular in the East, to the extent that Teekel became sainted. But, alas never made it into the canon. It is not clear why. So some degree of arbitrariness was going on in selecting what's canon and what's not. Also, as I recall, "Revelations" was not canonized by the East until the sixth century. And, as we will see, there always was debate and controversy as to what books are canon and what not, all down though the ages. Luther, for example, called "James" a "straw epistle" and put it in a kind of appendix, separate from the other NT books, in his Bible. Incidentally, he also said that "Ester" should be thrown in the river.



The OT is a good example of such debate. There were at least two different versions of the OT, one in Hebrew, and one in Greek. The latter is called the Septuagint, as legend his it that 72 scribes all translated it from the Hebrew, with the exact, same wording. It differend from the Hebrew, because it contained more books, commonly known as the Apocrypha. In the 19th century, a theory was advanced that somewhere between 90 to 110AD, there was a major conference, in Jamnia, to decide which version to go with. Result? No agreement. The Alexandrian Jews stuck with their Greek. The eastern Hebrew Jews, their Hebrew. However, there is no definitive evidence such a conference ever took place.



When Jerome wanted to produce what is sometimes called the Vulgate Bible, meaning in the language of the people, he debated over which source to translate from. Initially, he chose the Hebrew, as it is,after all, the original language. But it proved very difficult to translate fro Hebrew into Latin. It's far easier with Greek, so he went for the Seotuagint. He did have reservations about whether this was the right way to go, however. All this was in the midst of an ongoing controversy over the canon. Marcion, for example, is said to have taken a pair of scissors and cut out the entire OT. Augustine cheered on Jerome, but sais other fathers might not agree.

When the Reformation came along, there was concern about whether the Protestant Bibles should contain the Apocrypha, as it was a major part of the Catholic Bible, and no Protestant wanted t to trust Catholics, plus the Apocrypha was not in the original language. Luther included it in his Bible. The KJV originally contained it, too. However, given that it wasn't in the original language and given that the clerics were in a witch-hunt mentality, by the 1640's, it is pronounced a thing of the devil and dropped. During the Counterreformation, the Council of Trent again ratified it as holy, in the Catholic Church.

So again, as you can see, there always was controversy and some arbitrary human decision-making over what is canon and what not.

I don't know what Wikipedia said. I don't always trust it. I recommend students avoid it, except for quick references. I'm pretty sure I got it right on the history of the canon. I better. I have an earned doctorate in theology and teach on the university level.
Thank you. Do you think that the fact that the Apochrypha tends to lend support for some controversial Catholic-as well as EO- teachings contributed to the rejection by the Reformers?
 
Upvote 0

Fireinfolding

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2006
27,285
4,084
The South
✟129,061.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It is also the claim that the Eastern Orthodox handed the RCC when the RCC tried to pull the authority card on them.

A tad ironic.

Never mind Protestants, the EO and the RCC establish "God's"* schizophrenia.


* (man's)

^_^
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rick Otto
Upvote 0

sculleywr

Orthodox Colitis Survivor
Jul 23, 2011
7,789
683
Starke, FL
✟30,069.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Others
It is also the claim that the Eastern Orthodox handed the RCC when the RCC tried to pull the authority card on them.

A tad ironic.

Never mind Protestants, the EO and the RCC establish "God's"* schizophrenia.


* (man's)
No. Every Protestant denomination can claim the Spirit's guidance according to their doctrines. And they do. And they claim that each church is equally Christian. Orthodox and RCC do not claim that the others are equally Christian. That is the major difference between Protestantism and Traditional Christianity. Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches do not recognize each other as being fully Christian. We each believe our own Church to be the fullness of the Faith. We recognize the need for unity, but unlike the Protestants, we do not fool ourselves into believing that unity is there.

You see, that major difference makes your argument self-defeating. On an individual level, we believe a Roman Catholic or Protestant can be saved. But on the Ecclesiastical level, only one Church can be the Apostolic Church. Only one Church can be truly built on the Faith which was given once for ALL the Saints. And with that one verse, we can eliminate ANY church that believes that dogma can develop over time. If the Faith was given once for all the Saints, then innovation is impossible, dogmatic development is impossible, for the Church which follows the Apostles.

However, with the five solas, innovation and dogmatic development are not only possible, but inevitable. Any person can create his own church built on whatever dogmas he wishes. He could preach that Jesus is a literal multi-faced Ram based on the book of Revelation, and because he claims to be led by the Spirit, he is perfectly legitimized in his claim to be leading a real church. This is why, in all reality, the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are legitimately Protestant denominations, despite the Protestant denial of their inclusion. They claim, just like every Protestant, to be following the Scripture as based on the canon they recognize. Without Tradition, Protestants were powerless to condemn the heretical groups.

On the other hand, the same heresies, when they cropped up before the Reformation, were responded to as quickly as the Church was capable. And they failed to have any real lasting effect on the life of the Church.

So yes, if every Protestant denomination has equal claim to the Truth, then God is schizophrenic.
 
Upvote 0

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,402
14,528
Vancouver
Visit site
✟475,876.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
...Only one Church can be truly built on the Faith which was given once for ALL the Saints. And with that one verse, we can eliminate ANY church that believes that dogma can develop over time. If the Faith was given once for all the Saints, then innovation is impossible, dogmatic development is impossible, for the Church which follows the Apostles.....
Bingo.... and Christ cannot be divided....no schizophenia involved when it come to the true invisable church
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rick Otto
Upvote 0

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,779
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Here are a couple more for you:

And here (with popup Bible texts) is a partial list of references to Divine written revelation being written (Scripture) and references to it, substantiating the claim that as they were written, the written word became the standard for obedience and in establishing truth claims. In full, the New Testament is stated to have approximately 250 express Old Testament quotations and more than 1,000 if one includes indirect or partial quotations, while another counts 275 direct quotes and at least 600 allusions to the Old (view many of both here. Baker's Evangelical Dictionary reports "the fourth edition of the United Bible Societies' Greek Testament (1993) lists 343 Old Testament quotations in the New Testament, as well as no fewer than 2, 309 allusions and verbal parallels. (http://www.biblestudytools.com/dict...y/the-old-testament-in-the-new-testament.html) Many of which tabulations may count those in duplicate accounts. The following list does not include all of the quotations and rarely includes simple allusions to Scripture (versus clear references such as to the law), but supplies a multiplicity of viewable (place mouse over reference, and if you cannot see them use a different browser, like Firefox) references to what was written or quotes thereof, including internal references within each Testament to Scripture (not just the New referencing the Old): Ex. 17:14; 24:4,7,12; 31:18; 32:15; 34:1,27; 35:29; Lv. 8:36; 10:10,11; 26:46; Num. 4:5,37,45,49; 9:23; 10:13; 15:23; 16:40; 27:23; 33:2; 36:13; Dt. 4:13; 5:22; 9:10; 10:2,4; 17:18,19; 27:3,8; 28:58,61; 29:20,21,27; 30:10; 31:9,11,19,22,26; 33:4; Josh. 1:7,8; 8:31,32,34,35; 10:13; 14:2; 20:2; 21:2; 22:5,9; 23:6; 24:26; Jdg. 3:4; 1Sam. 10:25; 2Sam. 1:8; 1Ki. 2:3; 8:53,56; 12:22; 2Ki. 1:8; 14:6; 17:37; 22:8,10,13,16; 23:2,21; 1Ch. 16:40; 17:3,9; 2Ch. 23:18; 25:4; 31:3; 33:8; 34:13-16,18,19,21,24; 34:30; 35:6,12; Ezra 3:2,4; 6:18; Neh. 6:6; 8:1,3,8,15,18; 9:3,14; 10:34,36; 13:1; Psa. 40:7; Is. 8:20; 30:8; 34:16; 65:6; Jer. 17:1; 25:13; 30:2; 36:2,6,10,18,27,28; 51:60; Dan. 9:11,13; Hab. 2:2;
Mat. 1:22; 2:5,15,17,18; 3:3; 4:4,6,7,10,14,15; 5:17,18,33,38,43; 8:4,17; 9:13; 11:10; 12:3,5,17-21,40,41; 13:14,15,35; 14:3,4,7-9;19:4,5,17-19; 21:4,5,13,16,42; 22:24,29,31,32,37,39,43,44; 23:35;24:15; 26:24,31,54,56; 27:9,10,35; Mark 1:2,44; 7:3,10; 9:12,13; 10:4,5; 11:17; 12:10,19,24,26 13:14; 14:21,47,49; 15:28; Lk. 2:22,23.24; 3:4,5,6; 4:4,6-8,10,12,16,17,18,20,25-27; 5:14; 7:27; 8:10; 10:26,27; 16:29,31; 18:20,31; 19:46; 20:17,18, 28,37,42,43; 22:37; 23:30; 24:25.27,32,44,45,46; Jn. 1:45; 2:17,22; 3:14; 5:39,45-47; 6:31,45; 7:19,22,23,38,42,51,52; 8:5,17; 9:26; 10:34,35; 12:14,15,38-41; 15:25; 17:12; 19:24,28,36,37; 20:9,31; 21:24; Acts 1:20; 2:16-21,25-28,34,35; 3:22,23,25; 4:11,25,26; 7:3,7,27,28,32,33,37,40,42,43,49,50,53; 8:28,30,32,33; 10:43;13:15,27,29,33,39; 15:5,15-17,21; 17:2,11; 18:13.24,28; 21:20,24; 22:12; 23:3,5; 24:14; 26:22; 28:23,26,27; Rom 1:2,17; 2:10-21,31; 4:3,7,17,18,23,24; 5:13; 7:1-3,7,12,14,16; 8:4,36; 9:4,9,12,13,15,17,25-29,33; 10:11,15,19; 11:2-4,8,9,26,27; 12:19,20; 13:8-10; 14:11; 15:3,4,9-12,21; 16:16,26,27; 1Cor. 1:19,31; 2:9; 3:19,20; 4:6; 6:16; 7:39; 9:9,10; 10:7,11,26,28; 14:21,34; 15:3,4,32,45,54,55; 2Cor. 1:13; 2:3,4; 3:7,15; 4:13; 6:2;16; 7:12; 8:15; 9:9; 10:17; 13:1; Gal. 3:6,8,10-13; 4:22,27,30; 5:14; Eph. 3:3,4; (cf. 2Pt. 3:16); Eph. 4:8; 5:31; 6:2,3; (cf. Dt. 5:16); Col. 4:16; 1Thes. 5:27; 1Tim. 5:18; 2Tim. 3:14,16,17; Heb. 1:5,7-13; 2:5-8,12,13; 3:7-11,15; 4:3,4,7; 5:5,6; 6:14; 7:17,21,28; 8:5,8-13; 9:20; 10:5-916,17,28,30,37; 11:18; 12:5,6,12,26,29; 13:5,6,22; James 2:8,23; 4:5; 1Pet. 1:16,24,25; 2:6,7,22; 3:10-12; 5:5,12; 2Pet. 1:20,21; 2:22; 3:1,15,16; 1Jn. 1:4; 2:1,7,8,12,13,21; 5:13; Rev. 1:3,11,19; 2:1,8,12,18; 3:1,7,12,14; 14:13; 19:9; 21:5; 22:6,7;10,18,19 (Note: while the Bible reveals that there is revelation which is not written down, (2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 10:4) yet interestingly, a study of the the phrase “the word of God” or “the word of the Lord” shows that revelation that is referred to as being that normally was subsequently written down. Nor was the oral truth referred to in 2Thes. 2:15 that of nebulous ancient traditions (which can also result in different interpretations, such as the Roman Catholics and EOs example), but what Paul referred to was known instruction by a manifestly Divinely inspired apostle, whose manner was to reason out of the Scriptures, (Acts 17:2) and whose words were examined for veracity by Scripture. (Acts 17:11) And there is no proof that this truth also was not subsequently written down.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,779
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Acts17:[10] And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
[11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Sola Scriptura is simply searching the scriptures to see if whatever you hear from wherever is true (within context). This passage also shows how the NT gospel Paul was telling them could be verified by the types & shadows as well as the prophecies in the OT scriptures.

As you have likely been told already, that is not Sola Scriptura, but only example Prima Scripture, while the sufficiency claim is implicit if understood as encompassing formal and material aspects.

First, the fact is that, as is abundantly evidenced, the word of God/the Lord was normally written, even if sometimes first being spoken, and that as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God.

[Before the written word, God revealed Himself and will in a very limited manner, to a very limited amount of people, and oral tradition was the norm, but when choosing to do so to an entire people more precisely and comprehensively, and preserve this revelation, the Lord used writing, which became the standard.]

And thus the church established its truth claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, versus the the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility, which is unseen and unnecessary in Scripture.

And thus the Scripture alone are the supremacy wholly infallible definitive source of and on Truth, to which nothing is equal save God.

And as to the sufficiency claim, this cannot not wholly pertain to its formal (limited) aspect (under which basic things like how to be converted is evident, so that one could read Acts 10:36-43 and believe and be born again) but includes what Scripture materially provides, including such things as reason, the Spirit's guidance, the church, etc.

And Scripture testifies and sanction both men and writings of God being discerned and established as such (without needing an infallible mag.), then in principal this provides for a canon.

In stark contrast, RCs argue that the historical stewards of the word of God and inheritors of its promises are the infallible authority on and over it, and an infallible magisterium is essential to assuredly know what Scripture both consists of and means, and who true men of God are.

Thus under the RC model for determination of Truth, if some itinerant preachers showed up, claiming authority based on Scriptural warrant, and many people saw such as being from God, but whom the historical magisterium over the people of God rejected, then they would have to be rejected.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rick Otto
Upvote 0

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,779
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
In order for what you say to be true (that “searched the scriptures daily” means the same thing as Sola Scriptura), you need to provide evidence that the texts Sola Scriptura refers to are the same texts that were being “searched” in Acts 17:11.

So by all means show us what scriptures those were that they were searching through in Acts 17:11. Did those scriptures include Baruch? 1 Enoch? The Community Rule? Herodotus? Plato? Esther? Were their scriptures Hebrew? Aramaic? Greek? Latin? A combination? If a combination, which ones were which?

No, as SS refers to whatever falls under the class of Scripture. And if even OT Scripture itself was the supreme standard for Truth, then it certainly would be with a fuller canon.

But see above as regards the sufficiency aspect of SS.
 
Upvote 0

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,779
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
No. Every Protestant denomination can claim the Spirit's guidance according to their doctrines.

And likewise every RC can interpret their supreme standard, the church, and do. Especially since Rome can also formally redefine herself, which results in divisions. As one poster wryly commented,

The last time the church imposed its judgment in an authoritative manner on "areas of legitimate disagreement," the conservative Catholics became the Sedevacantists and the Society of St. Pius X, the moderate Catholics became the conservatives, the liberal Catholics became the moderates, and the folks who were excommunicated, silenced, refused Catholic burial, etc. became the liberals. The event that brought this shift was Vatican II; conservatives then couldn't handle having to actually obey the church on matters they were uncomfortable with, so they left. — Nathan ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2005/05/fr-michael-orsi-on-different-levels-of.html

Moreover, Scripturally what you do constitutes the evidence of what you believe, and Rome interprets herself by treating even proabortion, prosodomite, proMuslim pols as members in life and in death, while those who esteem Scripture the most are far more unified in core beliefs than the overall fruit of Rome.

But aside from that, it seems that the RC argument is that an assuredly (if conditionally) infallible magisterium is essential for determination and assurance of Truth (including writings and men being of God) and to fulfill promises of Divine presence, providence of Truth, and preservation of faith, and authority. (Jn. 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:13; Mt. 16:18; Lk. 10:16)\

And that being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that Rome is that assuredly infallible magisterium. Thus any who knowingly dissent from the latter must be in rebellion to God.

Does this fairly represent what you hold to or in what way does it differ?
 
  • Like
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
As you have likely been told already, that is not Sola Scriptura, but only example Prima Scripture
Well, it's NOT Prima Scriptura since there is nothing for it to be "Prima" in comparison to! ;)

Seriously, we have evidence of Scripture being cited as the cause of this or that belief from the first century onward, but where is there any evidence of "Holy Tradition?" There is none.

Yet its devotees claim that Tradition is to be preferred over Scripture and that the Apostles and Church Fathers and the Bible itself all supposedly support Tradition! Where? It's entirely phony. There is none such.

So this fact constitutes support for Scripture in itself.
 
Upvote 0

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,779
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Thank you. Do you think that the fact that the Apochrypha tends to lend support for some controversial Catholic-as well as EO- teachings contributed to the rejection by the Reformers?

And just how many distinctive Cath. teachings do these specifically actually support, versus what Caths extrapolate out them, which is only limited by what is needed? Purgatory from 2Mac. 12? Even the Orthodox substantially differ with Rome on many things, including her purgatory.

Moreover, if the Apocrypha did so then why was the canonical status doubted and debated down thru the centuries and right into Trent. Which provided the first indisputable RC definition of the Bible - after the death of Luther, approx. 1400 years after the last book was penned?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.