SSPX: I guess ecumenical councils are no longer infallible

Open Heart said:

Mgr. Lefebvre refused to sign the Declaration on Religious Liberty (Dignitatis Humanae)

Click to expand...

Such was his right as a voting member of the Vatican 2 council. The bishop of my area voted against defining the Immaculate Conception as a dogma at Vatican 1. He remained a bishop in good standing for the rest of his life.

Open Heart said:

SSPX rejects religious freedom as stated in Vat 2. Do we want them back in the church?

Click to expand...

YES

"The years following Vatican II have shown the truth of Leo XIII’s statement that religious liberty necessarily leads to immorality. In formerly Catholic countries, it is not only faith that has disappeared, but also Christian morality.

The declaration of Vatican II on religious liberty, Dignitatis Humanae (§2), affirms:

This Vatican Synod decla...."

Read more here

http://sspx.org/en/religious-liberty-contradicts-tradition

Open Heart said:

You are quoting from an SSPX website!!!!! sheesh.

Click to expand...

Well thats the best way to understand what the sspx mean. We are catholics here... how often have we heard stupid claims that we worship mary pray to saints and these people take no time in trying to understand nor seek out the real catholic teaching... we are catholics and i think we are a bit different than to remain ignorant with unfounded or misunderstood objections.

Open Heart said:

SSPX rejects religious freedom as stated in Vat 2. Do we want them back in the church?

Click to expand...

This is not doctrine....again, what doctrine promulgated by VII do they reject?

Open Heart said:

Exactly what curse is that. Spell it out.

Click to expand...

Sigh... No curse today. Cursed 2000 years ago. The curse is that they (Jews) were chosen by God to be His special people to be sent the Savior and save mankind and the Jews rejected that. It's not anti Semite to say this. It's a fact of the matter. They did not want the gig. And not only did they not want the gig, they handed Jesus over to the pagans to have Him crucified. Yes, it's our sins that put Him up there, yadda yadda, yadda... But God choose the Jews to do something and they did not do it and it's not some little thing they disobeyed Him about. God punished them for that and for persecuting the subsequent Christians. He allowed the Romans to destroy them. I mean this is fact, not fiction. When Jesus died the temple was torn in two. No God in the temples any more. Fact.

Look at it like this. The Judgement and punishment was between God and the Jews. Not us, God and the Jews. It happened, it's done. It's over. In the here and now we are not to judge them or punish them. We are not God and besides, it's over. God already handled His business with them.

Do you understand now? Yes, we love Jews, we love Muslims too, and JW's and SDA's, and Mormons and men on the moon. Yes, Jews are special and totally different from those religions in so much as they were the religion God established that He began His work of salvation through them, the religion our dear Lord was born to but because of their free will choices, for some reason or another they just went left. We honor the Jewish religion as it's our ancestry but the religion today is not that said ancient religion that Jesus fulfilled, signed, sealed and delivered. WE are said religion. It was like, God was like, 'okay, bye Felicia, you don't want the gig, then it's going to be this now. "on this Rock I will build my Church..."

as far as Jewish people, they a people who need the Savior. As far as their religion, not the ancient religion that ended in 70 AD but what survived that, they are like any other religion, they need Jesus. So this is why we can not hold them responsible for killing Jesus and being out to get them.

The Catholic Church is absolutely not into Zionism nor of any belief that the Jesus will have some separate salvation apart from the one already provided for them, that they rejected.

As far as what is happening over there in Israel now, We are not for them going over there rebuilding the temple...why on earth would we be???!! But the position is, since they are there we are not for running them out. Not for any religion sake but for political sake. They're there so now the position is, man, just get along. Everybody need to stop fighting and just get along, share the land.

Open Heart said:

You are quoting from an SSPX website!!!!! sheesh.

Click to expand...

And we can, they are Catholic. What we can not do is quote their anti pope stuff. That's where they are wrong. It's when they are right, they are right. They are fully Catholic. They just reject the pope which makes them separated, not, not Catholic.

benedictaoo said:

And we can, they are Catholic. What we can not do is quote their anti pope stuff. That's where they are wrong. It's when they are right, they are right. They are fully Catholic. They just reject the pope which makes them separated, not, not Catholic.

Click to expand...

I dont even think they reject the pope to be honest. Those are the sedevacantists. I think the issues come down to the previous now defunct imprisonment of the latin mass and the non binding parts of vatican 2.

pdudgeon said:

on the one hand it is the Year of Mercy, so now would be an opportune time for them to come back into the fold.
on the other hand, these talks also provide a good way to sound them out to see how real their intentions are.
Nothing is a done deal yet, so let's wait and see what comes out in the wash.

Click to expand...

Hey, if they can be brought back under Francis, then color me impressed.

mea kulpa said:

I dont even think they reject the pope to be honest. Those are the sedevacantists. I think the issues come down to the previous now defunct imprisonment of the latin mass and the non binding parts of vatican 2.

Click to expand...

Well, they aren't in union.

SSPX are guilt of disobedience. Not heresy or rejecting dogma, doctrine, etc. They didn't like the changes to the liturgy and this lovy dovy stuff and so they dug their heels in and got their butts schismed. They are in schism for disobedience. Don't get it twisted.

benedictaoo said:

Well, they aren't in union.

Click to expand...

Hmmm its kind of a strange relationship. They beleve in tradition. The church believes in tradition. They reject the nin binding parts of v2... which it sems they can do... The only thing really that is preventing their "union" is a papal approved canonical regularisation because pope benedict xvi lifted the ex communication... i think the term at the moment is that they are in an "irregular union"

They arent even in schism well not since the vatican lifted the excomunication

mea kulpa said:

Jesus called the jews the synagog of satan. The popes have called the freemasons the synagog of satan... there is a reason for this... its not something i can easily explain nor is it something that can be explained in a response on here as its far too big.. i can if you wish private message you.

Click to expand...

and true Jews are Christians. This has literally nothing to do with anti antisemitism. It's literally about two different things.

It's not about today's Jews at all but about Jews at that time who rejected Jesus and they did fall into some serious darkness and evil from when Christ died to when the Roman came after them in 70 AD. It has nothing to do with Jews after that. And the take away is this; if God would do that to His chosen for the evil they sunk too.. what do you think He will do to us?

Open Heart said:

I go by Pope St. John Paul II's understanding. Each Pope has had a different understanding. But in each case, they have treated the Jews as being uniquely special.

Click to expand...

So? They are unique. And? It wasn't from Mohammed we were given the Savior. They are unique in so much as God established Judaism. We have no reason to hold anything against them. we should build bridges because they need to be saved like everyone else. I just do not want you to think they have some special salvation reserved just for them because they do not. I do not want you to think it's Gods will and plan that they go back to Israel to rebuild the temple because it's not.

The group they are on about Some call them crypto jews... its got to do with the talmud its lucifarian origins and its ocultic nature in the freemasons

sound interesting...

Tallguy88 said:

Such was his right as a voting member of the Vatican 2 council. The bishop of my area voted against defining the Immaculate Conception as a dogma at Vatican 1. He remained a bishop in good standing for the rest of his life.

Click to expand...

Well yes but he did not ordain his own priests and refuse to follow the Council.