Sr. Dr. Vassa situation...

[Principal Moo]

Hello everyone,

I was wondering if we could start a discussion on the current situation with Sr. Dr. Vassa. If you have not heard about it, you can find it here:

Byzantine, Texas: Sr. Vassa's words on gay teen dating continue to reverberate

My Facebook has been exploding with arguments about this one and I was hoping to get your opinions (as they mean so much to me). Personally, I am a bit sad and confused by what Sr. Dr. Vassa (by the way, I refer to her as Doctor as well since I am in a doctorate program and know how difficult that journey is!) said and then her response to the backlash. I can't find it as she has since deleted the post, but she basically doubled down on what she previously said.

I'm not looking to trash her, but I did want your opinions!

 

[FireDragon76]

This doesn't surprise me, she's a smart woman and takes her faith seriously and isn't afraid to carry a cross. She will have my prayers.

People that try to deal compassionately with tough questions just aren't welcomed in some quarters. This is the sort of mentality that alienated me from the Orthodox church.

 

[rusmeister]

This doesn't surprise me, she's a smart woman and takes her faith seriously and isn't afraid to carry a cross. She will have my prayers.

People that try to deal compassionately with tough questions just aren't welcomed in some quarters. This is the sort of mentality that alienated me from the Orthodox church.

This is ignorant of the traditional Orthodox view that is compassionate but not permissive. It seems that is how many understand "compassion" - "Unless you support my sin, you are not compassionate". Nonsense.

 

[rusmeister]

Hello everyone,

I was wondering if we could start a discussion on the current situation with Sr. Dr. Vassa. If you have not heard about it, you can find it here:

Byzantine, Texas: Sr. Vassa's words on gay teen dating continue to reverberate

My Facebook has been exploding with arguments about this one and I was hoping to get your opinions (as they mean so much to me). Personally, I am a bit sad and confused by what Sr. Dr. Vassa (by the way, I refer to her as Doctor as well since I am in a doctorate program and know how difficult that journey is!) said and then her response to the backlash. I can't find it as she has since deleted the post, but she basically doubled down on what she previously said.

I'm not looking to trash her, but I did want your opinions!

I already started a thread called "The New Divide" on this.

 

[Principal Moo]

I already started a thread called "The New Divide" on this.

Sorry about that! I'll post over there. Thanks.

 

[gzt]

I think Sr Vassa's advice was quite reasonable and well-founded. It seems there are two reactions: either engage with it reasonably (respectfully engage whether agreeing or disagreeing) or blow up and see it as wholly unorthodox and beyond the pale. I'm rather concerned about the latter response but not surprised that some here seem to take it. The latter also seems to involve what almost seems like a willful misunderstanding of what she says, but charitably I would put it down to seeing everything through a certain lens rather than ill will. This is perhaps illustrated by some of the rather poor pieces floating around, some of them anonymous. It's not a crisis - you can disagree with her advice but it's not the end of the world.

 

[gzt]

This doesn't surprise me, she's a smart woman and takes her faith seriously and isn't afraid to carry a cross. She will have my prayers.

People that try to deal compassionately with tough questions just aren't welcomed in some quarters. This is the sort of mentality that alienated me from the Orthodox church.

It's only some quarters, much of the Church is willing to do the work.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

I think Sr Vassa's advice was quite reasonable and well-founded. It seems there are two reactions: either engage with it reasonably (respectfully engage whether agreeing or disagreeing) or blow up and see it as wholly unorthodox and beyond the pale. I'm rather concerned about the latter response but not surprised that some here seem to take it. The latter also seems to involve what almost seems like a willful misunderstanding of what she says, but charitably I would put it down to seeing everything through a certain lens rather than ill will. This is perhaps illustrated by some of the rather poor pieces floating around, some of them anonymous. It's not a crisis - you can disagree with her advice but it's not the end of the world.

Is it "quite reasonable and well founded" to advise someone to seek another parish if his current parish will not commune him because he is participating in the sin of homosexual sex?

Do you consider homosexual sex to be a sin? Should the Orthodox Church allow active homosexuals to commune?

Do you consider homosexuality as a less serious sin than other sexual sins such as adultery?

What other traditional sins would you no longer consider sins and would therefore advise changing parishes if one's priest will not commune him?

Abortion?
Adultery?
Bestiality?
Polygamy?

Is it up to the individual Orthodox believer to decide what sins are serious?

 

[rusmeister]

I think Sr Vassa's advice was quite reasonable and well-founded. It seems there are two reactions: either engage with it reasonably (respectfully engage whether agreeing or disagreeing) or blow up and see it as wholly unorthodox and beyond the pale. I'm rather concerned about the latter response but not surprised that some here seem to take it. The latter also seems to involve what almost seems like a willful misunderstanding of what she says, but charitably I would put it down to seeing everything through a certain lens rather than ill will. This is perhaps illustrated by some of the rather poor pieces floating around, some of them anonymous. It's not a crisis - you can disagree with her advice but it's not the end of the world.

I, for one, have extensively engaged with it, both reasonably and respectfully. Most defenders of her bad advice have chosen not to respond to polite and thoughtful engagement. One former TAW member said her opinion, and then that she was plugging her ears, turning off notifications and unwilling to hear anything except her own opinion.
No, it's not the end of the world. But it IS scandal and potential schism between people who think they are more compassionate than the fathers and the historical Church, and people who think the Church in the consensus of its Tradition generally knows better than we individuals do.

 

[AlaskaFan]

Hello everyone,

I was wondering if we could start a discussion on the current situation with Sr. Dr. Vassa. If you have not heard about it, you can find it here:

Byzantine, Texas: Sr. Vassa's words on gay teen dating continue to reverberate

My Facebook has been exploding with arguments about this one and I was hoping to get your opinions (as they mean so much to me). Personally, I am a bit sad and confused by what Sr. Dr. Vassa (by the way, I refer to her as Doctor as well since I am in a doctorate program and know how difficult that journey is!) said and then her response to the backlash. I can't find it as she has since deleted the post, but she basically doubled down on what she previously said.

I'm not looking to trash her, but I did want your opinions!

Sister Vassar's reply to the mother is against Church teaching and confirms the 14 year old in his sin.

Father John Whiteford gave the best response to Sister Vassar's immoral advice:

Fr. John Whiteford's News, Comments, & Reflections: Sister Vassa on Homosexuality

 

[rusmeister]

Is it "quite reasonable and well founded" to advise someone to seek another parish if his current parish will not commune him because he is participating in the sin of homosexual sex?

Do you consider homosexual sex to be a sin? Should the Orthodox Church allow active homosexuals to commune?

Do you consider homosexuality as a less serious sin than other sexual sins such as adultery?

What other traditional sins would you no longer consider sins and would therefore advise changing parishes if one's priest will not commune him?

Abortion?
Adultery?
Bestiality?
Polygamy?

Is it up to the individual Orthodox believer to decide what sins are serious?

I, too, await the answers to these questions.

 

[gzt]

Is it "quite reasonable and well founded" to advise someone to seek another parish if his current parish will not commune him because he is participating in the sin of homosexual sex?

Do you consider homosexual sex to be a sin? Should the Orthodox Church allow active homosexuals to commune?

Ah, yes, this is the sort of egregious intentional misreading I'm referring to.

 

[gzt]

Sister Vassar's reply to the mother is against Church teaching and confirms the 14 year old in his sin.

Father John Whiteford gave the best response to Sister Vassar's immoral advice:

Fr. John Whiteford's News, Comments, & Reflections: Sister Vassa on Homosexuality

Her advice is hardly immoral and Whiteford misconstrues many aspects of her response.

 

[rusmeister]

Ah, yes, this is the sort of egregious intentional misreading I'm referring to.

GZ, please do not accuse anyone of intentional misreading. It is openly insulting to the person. I'm still giving you credit and assuming that you are sincerely trying to live the Orthodox life. I don't even accuse you of intentionally misreading Fr John. A LOT of people, myself included, read an objective understanding into her words, one that you are denying without evidence. Now I give Sr Vassa (I'm going with her self-identifying title, though I have heard that it is not properly Orthodox) similar credit, and assume she is not in the least being deceptive. I assume that she does not intend to promote the multiplication of sin, and in her mind, she is trying to limit it. But we do say that the words mean the encouragement of sin, despite her intent, and that the heart of it is in the dismissal of the true seriousness of the sin, the idea that some sins can not be struggled against, and so are effectively involuntary - denying our free choice of will to struggle to deny our sinful passions.

And maybe I can't change your mind. But I think my case is strong enough to convince "the peanut gallery" that you are really mistaken. The best win-win would be for you to admit that the Church fathers knew what they were talking about in regard to sexual sin, and that Sr. Vassa ought to conform to what they say and teach in her pastoral advice, and repent of contradicting the teachings of the Church.

Nobody's judging her -or your - status before God. But we do rightly judge whether teachings conform to our Tradition or not.

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

Ah, yes, this is the sort of egregious intentional misreading I'm referring to.

Misreading whom? You? You said she is "quite reasonable and well founded".

I am certainly not misreading her. I am on her mailing list and got to read her post before I heard any commentary on it. Her position here is very clear:

"Find a parish that is acceptive of your son’s particular gift-and-cross. There are parishes like that, here and there, but I don’t know where you live and whether you have one nearby.".

Do you think this advice is quite reasonable and well founded? Is it "quite reasonable and well founded" to advise someone to seek another parish if his current parish will not commune him because he is participating in the sin of homosexual sex?

What other traditional sins would you no longer consider sins and would therefore advise changing parishes if one's priest will not commune him?

Abortion?
Adultery?
Bestiality?
Polygamy?

Sister Vassa says:

"In most cases, homosexuality is not one’s own choice. So, “crossing the line” in this area, and not committing to total celibacy, as one “must” do according to traditional, scriptural law, is “more tolerable” in God’s eyes (as Christ says in the above-quoted passage), than our other kinds of trespasses. Among our “other” trespasses let me mention heterosexual adultery, masturbation, premarital sex, and just “looking lustfully at a woman”

Do you consider homosexuality as a less serious sin than other sexual sins such as adultery, masturbation or lust?

Is it up to the individual Orthodox believer to decide what sins are serious?

If you just refuse to defend your position, that's ok, but you are not providing any support at all for your contention that she is "quite reasonable and well founded".

 

[AlaskaFan]

Her advice is hardly immoral and Whiteford misconstrues many aspects of her response.

Telling a mother to allow her son to date other boys is immoral. There is no defense for such advice.

 

[HoleyHermit]

I wonder what those who say that affirming the sins of others is loving would say about affirming alcoholism. "You were born that way. Don't let the haters get you down. Here's a bottle of whiskey because I love you."

 

[ArmyMatt]

letting someone abstain from communion to allow them to continue in sin is bad pastoral advice. when you begin with saying that what you are about to say is against Church teaching, that is a bad sign.

Sr Vassa (I'm going with her self-identifying title, though I have heard that it is not properly Orthodox)

it is a proper title in some areas for a nun who is not riassaphore

 

[gzt]

She did not say what she was about to say is against church teaching, she stated it's against some official pronouncements, wihch is slightly different. Paying attention to wording is very important.

Sr Vassa is, by the way, a riassophor

 

[gzt]

I wonder what those who say that affirming the sins of others is loving would say about affirming alcoholism. "You were born that way. Don't let the haters get you down. Here's a bottle of whiskey because I love you."

Who's affirming the sins of others? Nobody involved in any of the conversations, including Sr Vassa, is doing so.