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Spooky self-organizing on the quantum level.

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busterdog

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They were trying to establish exactly how organic photosynthesis approaches 95% efficiency, whereas the most sophisticated human solar cells operate at only half that. What they discovered is nothing short of remarkable. Using femtosecond lasers to follow the movement of light energy through a photosynthetic bacterial cell, Engel et al. observed the energy traveling along every possible direction at the same time. Instead of following a single trajectory like the electrons on a silicon chip, the energy in photosynthesis explores all of its options and collapses the quantum process only after the fact, retroactively “deciding” upon the most efficient pathway. What does this all mean? Not only does quantum phenomena occur in living systems, but the basic processes of life we take for granted rely on the transfer of information backward in time. Life is so magical because it cheats.

Although the mechanisms by which a living cell can prevent decoherence by dampening its own chemical “noise” remain utterly mysterious, findings such as Engels' conclusively demonstrate that room-temperature quantum computing is possible (and knowing how something works isn’t always necessary in order to use it). And Engel’s group isn’t the only team to detect it: other laboratories have implicated a phenomenon called electron tunneling (micro-teleportation, in which an electron disappears in one location and instantaneously appears somewhere else without having traveled the intermediate distance) at work behind a range of organic phenomena, from our sense of smell and the activities of our enzymes to the neutralization of free radicals with anti-oxidants… possibly even consciousness itself. Paul Davies (Arizona State University) and JohnJoe McFadden (The University of Surrey) have independently suggested that computation in the netherworld of quantum coherence might explain how the earliest self-replicating molecules overcame the inestimable odds against them –- life’s very existence may be the consequence and continued operation of a quantum computer. We may ultimately have to accept our human quest for qubit calculation as a kind of biomimicry, rather than something new and unique.
quantum-biology-4.jpg
Quantum biology stands to answer other big questions, as well –- questions that many contemporary biologists prefer to ignore. McFadden, in his excellent primer Quantum Evolution, cites several experiments that suggest certain mutations are “intelligent,” even “anticipatory.” For example, bacterial cultures have been observed to evolve clever responses to lab toxins at speeds that – just like the emergence of DNA from a primordial soup – defy astronomical odds. Can biological quantum calculation account for this? McFadden thinks so. (His hypothesis was itself anticipated in the science fiction of Greg Egan, whose novel Teranesia featured some very “spooky” retrocausal mutations – including the instantaneous appearance of entire new ecosystems via competing future evolutionary scenarios. Whether such extreme examples of quantum biological principles are possible remains to be seen.)
As we continue to probe biological phenomena that beat quantum computer scientists to the punch, a new picture emerges of evolutionary computing and design. Huxley’s prophecy that we will eventually take the reins of our own evolution might come true sooner than predicted by establishment geneticists. But by appealing to the quantum oracle, we may be acting in service of something far older and more intelligent than we can even guess. Ultrafast computing, accelerated by our explorations into the new science of quantum biology, could well be the critical technology that pushes us over the edge into the Singularity – a timeless and transcendent event in which we already live, because it is the nature of life itself – a vast sentience beyond human comprehension, and we are merely the newest avenue for its expression in the world. Classical or quantum, human or ecological, natural selection still gets the last laugh
The Spooky World Of Quantum Biology | h+ Magazine

If this is an ink blot test, I say the ink clearly and without a doubt shows that common descent didn't happen but that God created and creates all life. Ie, that is a statement too broad to argue against in an epistemological sense. All you can do is offer a different point of view.
 

gluadys

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The Spooky World Of Quantum Biology | h+ Magazine

If this is an ink blot test, I say the ink clearly and without a doubt shows that common descent didn't happen but that God created and creates all life. Ie, that is a statement too broad to argue against in an epistemological sense. All you can do is offer a different point of view.

I don't know what the comment has to do with the article.

But why do you consider creation and common descent mutually exclusive?
 
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busterdog

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I don't know what the comment has to do with the article.

But why do you consider creation and common descent mutually exclusive?

We are back to beliefs that are so fundamental, that I don't see the point of arguing them. You may as well argue about what you see in an ink blot. The author's words were "spooky".

I understand how the information would be used to support neo-Darwinism. I don't think the data compels a particular conclusion. But, it certainly does do interesting things to one's view of creation from either perspective.
 
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gluadys

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We are back to beliefs that are so fundamental, that I don't see the point of arguing them. You may as well argue about what you see in an ink blot. The author's words were "spooky".

I understand how the information would be used to support neo-Darwinism. I don't think the data compels a particular conclusion. But, it certainly does do interesting things to one's view of creation from either perspective.

That wasn't my question. I am not really commenting on the article. I was intrigued by your perspective.

Why do you see common descent as incompatible with the concept "that God created and is creating all life"?
 
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busterdog

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That wasn't my question. I am not really commenting on the article. I was intrigued by your perspective.

Why do you see common descent as incompatible with the concept "that God created and is creating all life"?

OK. At the risk of a derailing, I understand the logical connection between creation and common descent. The Word itself, however, makes it clear to me that common descent didn't happen.

Much of the evidence either way is pretty well analogous to an ink blot. The picture you see is governed by your beliefs, since there isn't sufficient evidence.
 
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gluadys

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OK. At the risk of a derailing, I understand the logical connection between creation and common descent. The Word itself, however, makes it clear to me that common descent didn't happen.

Much of the evidence either way is pretty well analogous to an ink blot. The picture you see is governed by your beliefs, since there isn't sufficient evidence.

I see.

I would disagree on this point.

To me, the Word has quite clearly indicated that common descent did happen and has provided more than sufficient evidence.

I would agree that one's beliefs govern whether one is able to accept that evidence.
 
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sfs

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The original article is interesting, although it's not in my field. The commentary from the magazine is also interesting, but in a listening-to-a-talkative-nut-on-the-subway kind of way. What's interesting in the article is that quantum coherence in chlorophyll lasts two or three times longer than models predict. This probably has something to do with the high efficiency of photosynthesis, but has nothing to do with time travel or self organization, as far as I can tell.

If this is an ink blot test, I say the ink clearly and without a doubt shows that common descent didn't happen but that God created and creates all life.
I think it more clearly indicates that the Red Sox are going to edge out the Yankees in the American League East this season, but only if their starting pitching improves.
 
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busterdog

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I think it more clearly indicates that the Red Sox are going to edge out the Yankees in the American League East this season, but only if their starting pitching improves.

Read the book of Jonah. Unless the Yankees pitch A Rod over the side, they are going straight to the bottom.
 
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peace4ever

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The Spooky World Of Quantum Biology | h+ Magazine

If this is an ink blot test, I say the ink clearly and without a doubt shows that common descent didn't happen but that God created and creates all life. Ie, that is a statement too broad to argue against in an epistemological sense. All you can do is offer a different point of view.

Today's science will be archaic to tomorrow's science and tomorrow's science will be archaic to the science of tomorrow's future. So there's no reason to trust scientists. :wave:
 
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busterdog

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Sigh.

Quantum =/= spooky.

(Unless you wilfully refuse to understand it ... ;) )

LOL

How about silly?

Richard_Feynman_ID_badge.png


Just look at the kind of hair you guys have.

He used the word "silly".

I find it very interesting that the paper suggested that the basis of life seems to be counter-intuitive, if not magical, properties of its most fundamental components. It suggests an irreducibly (if you will forgive the term) mysterious level of inquiry or perhaps irreducibly serendipitous behavior. It sounds like "self organizing" and like the Creationism.
 
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sfs

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I find it very interesting that the paper suggested that the basis of life seems to be counter-intuitive, if not magical, properties of its most fundamental components. It suggests an irreducibly (if you will forgive the term) mysterious level of inquiry or perhaps irreducibly serendipitous behavior. It sounds like "self organizing" and like the Creator.
All matter behaves counterintuitively, if you look at it on a fine enough scale (at least until you've worked with QM long enough that you develop some intuition for it). This may mean something deep about the mystery of existence, or it may mean that our intuition is not a good guide to how really small things are likely to behave(*). The latter is not implausible, since our intuition is based on experience with matter on a very different scale.

(*) Or both, of course.
 
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busterdog

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All matter behaves counterintuitively, if you look at it on a fine enough scale (at least until you've worked with QM long enough that you develop some intuition for it). This may mean something deep about the mystery of existence, or it may mean that our intuition is not a good guide to how really small things are likely to behave(*). The latter is not implausible, since our intuition is based on experience with matter on a very different scale.

(*) Or both, of course.

Yeah, might as well be both. It works out the same either way.

Certainly you can make some progress in pushing that boundary, but the boundary for rationality seems to retreat before the inquiry. No matter which side of the CREVO debate you are on, it is a fascinating issue.
 
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shernren

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LOL

How about silly?

Richard_Feynman_ID_badge.png


Just look at the kind of hair you guys have.

That's nothing. You obviously have not heard of the Luxuriant Flowing Hair Club for Scientists.

I find it very interesting that the paper suggested that the basis of life seems to be counter-intuitive, if not magical, properties of its most fundamental components. It suggests an irreducibly (if you will forgive the term) mysterious level of inquiry or perhaps irreducibly serendipitous behavior. It sounds like "self organizing" and like the Creationism.

I find it interesting that you equate counter-intuitive with mysterious. After all, what is counter-intuitive to some people is common-sense to others.

For example, I don't find quantum physics counter-intuitive. It makes sense to me. Really. Just yesterday I was hanging out in the physics student computer room after an exam tutorial, and a friend asked me "So, are you doing work or just procrastinating?" I merely started "At any given time ... "

"... a linear superposition of both. Yeah, I get it." he immediately continued.

See? Physicists think in terms of waves and superpositions and measurement collapse much of the time. Or at least I do.

You know what I don't get? Economists. How on earth can anyone start a theory with "Everyone is a rational agent", apply that theory to millions of manifestly irrational agents, and still hope to achieve any sensible result whatsoever? Why do people pay attention to quackery like that?

But economics is intuitive to some people, to whom physics isn't intuitive (like my ex-girlfriend).

Your intuitiveness or mine is not a good guide to what human rationality can explain or cannot explain. And why are you so anxious to argue that science cannot explain (or cannot explain intuitively) the workings of nature? Is nature any less created by God if it can be explained by man?
 
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MattLangley

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Today's science will be archaic to tomorrow's science and tomorrow's science will be archaic to the science of tomorrow's future. So there's no reason to trust scientists. :wave:

Just as yesterdays religious teachers are archaic to us today, no reason to trust them either.
 
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