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Spontaneous Life Generation in Lab is Impossible

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Fossil footprints give land vertebrates a much longer history -- ScienceDaily
Even evoultion mythology put doubts on Tiktaalik. Of course when it comes to evolution all is need is to explain away the contradicting evidence. Evolution is dogma which all evidence has to be made to fit at all cost.
OOL research show how far man will go in supporting myths when all of nature is against it. Because of the water paradox some is even suggesting creating life without water.
Sign in to read: No more primal soup: Creating life without water - life - 16 April 2014 - New Scientist

1. You assume Tiktaalik was meant to be transitional to tetrapods. However, even alternating limb movement predates that fossil, that doesn't mean it isn't still transitional to Elginerpeton, Ventastega, etc.
2. Furthermore, the presence of earlier alternating limb movement does not preempt the current proposed branching of extant tetrapods, merely suggests that some tetrapod may have been around sooner than we thought.
3. Even in your best case scenario, in which these tracks ultimately prove to be a tetrapod ancestor of extant species, then you are still left with a transitional form. That fossil would be a tetrapod ancestor of extant species.

Seriously, imagine the following conversation:
"frank has a dog"
"No he doesn't"
"Yeah, he does, here's a picture of him with it. It's a German Shepherd"
"Ha! that's not a German Shepherd! That's a Belgian Tervuren! TOLD you he didn't have a dog!"

Now, even if that guy was right about the dog that frank has not being a German Shepherd, the Belgian Tervuren is still a dog.
 
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stevevw

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interesting, however some are saying the study does not disprove common decent. In which there would still be a huge need for missing links to be in fact, found.

The Death of the Tree of Life is Greatly Exaggerated

Yes even though there will HGT it doesn't account for all variations. Darwin's Evolution through common decent will still need the morphing of one kind of animal to another and then another and so on. The head lines for Darwin's Tree being dead were a bit sensationalizing. But it has certainly changed the way they are making the tree and its becoming more of a web than a tree and linking creatures in other ways besides the traditional vertical transfer of genetics by parent to offspring and natural selection. Natural selection is not the only way genetic material can be obtained.

But maybe in the beginning there were a certain number of animals who were the heads of each group. They can have offspring's which can then crossbreed and make a certain number of new creatures and then they can also cross breed to a point. It happens in the simpler life forms like plants, sea life, bacteria and other microbes and there is evidence it occurred more than scientist realize with more complex animals. As time passed different animals continued on their particular path and became separate species which cannot breed successfully anymore with the original groups.

Also virus's could transfer gene or even sections of gnomes horizontally as well. There will be variation within the different animal groups as well by adaptation to their environments. The article you showed is maybe a little older . There has been more recent DNA evidence that has come out linking different creatures as well as some of the known so called ape men that were classed as separate species.

http://jonlieffmd.com/blog/jumping-genes-versus-epigenetics-the-real-drivers-of-evolution
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100225091344.htm
http://molecularevolutionforum.blogspot.com.au/2014/03/horizontal-gene-transfer-takes-turn.html
 
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Armoured

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[serious];65569974 said:
Seriously, imagine the following conversation:
"frank has a dog"
"No he doesn't"
"Yeah, he does, here's a picture of him with it. It's a German Shepherd"
"Ha! that's not a German Shepherd! That's a Belgian Tervuren! TOLD you he didn't have a dog!"

Now, even if that guy was right about the dog that frank has not being a German Shepherd, the Belgian Tervuren is still a dog.
That's pretty perfect. What do you want to bet they don't get it?
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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is tiktaalik a transitional form or just a fish?

tiktaalik is a fish according to answers in genesis...

Whatever else we might say about Tiktaalik, it is a fish. In a review article on Tiktaalik (appearing in the same issue of the scientific journal Nature that reported the discovery of Tiktaalik), fish evolution experts, Ahlberg and Clack concede that “in some respects Tiktaalik and Panderichthys are straightforward fishes: they have small pelvic fins, retain fin rays in their paired appendages and have well-developed gill arches, suggesting that both animals remained mostly aquatic.” 5

In other respects, however, Ahlberg and Clack argue that Tiktaalik is more tetrapod-like than Panderichthys because “the bony gill cover has disappeared, and the skull has a longer snout.” The authors weakly suggest that the significance of all this is that “a longer snout suggests a shift from sucking towards snapping up prey, whereas the loss of gill cover bones probably correlates with reduced water flow through the gill chamber. The ribs also seem larger in Tiktaalik, which may mean it was better able to support its body out of water.”

Without the author’s evolutionary bias, of course, there is no reason to assume that Tiktaalik was anything other than exclusively aquatic. And how do we know that Tiktaalik lost its gill cover as opposed to never having one? The longer snout and lack of bony gill covers (found in many other exclusively-aquatic living fish) are interpreted as indicating a reduced flow of water through the gills, which, in turn, is declared to be suggestive of partial air-breathing—but this is quite a stretch. Finally, what does any of this have to do with fish evolving into land dwelling tetrapods?

Are the pectoral fins of Tiktaalik really legs?

Before we get into Tiktaalik’s “legs,” it might be instructive to consider an old trick question. If we call our arms “legs,” then how many legs would we have? The answer, of course, is two legs—just because we call our arms “legs” doesn’t make them legs. The same might be said of the bony fins of Crossopterygian fish—we may call them “legs” but that doesn’t necessarily make them legs.

Shubin et al. make much of the claim that Tiktaalik’s bony fins show a reduction in dermal bone and an increase in endochondral bone.6 This is important to them because the limb bones of tetrapods are entirely endochondral. They further claim that the cleithrum (a dermal bone to which the pectoral fin is attached in fish) is detached from the skull, resembling the position of the scapula (shoulder blade) of a tetrapod. They also claim that the endochondral bones of the fin are more similar to those of a tetrapod in terms of structure and range of motion. However, none of this, if true, proves that Tiktaalik’s fins supported its weight out of water, or that it was capable of a true walking motion. (It certainly doesn’t prove that these fish evolved into tetrapods.)

The limbs of tetrapods

The limbs of tetrapods share similar characteristic features. These unique features meet the special demands of walking on land. In the case of the forelimbs there is one bone nearest the body (proximal) called the humerus that articulates (flexibly joins) with two bones, the radius and ulna, further away from the body (distal). These in turn articulate with multiple wrist bones, which finally articulate with typically five digits. The hind limbs similarly consist of one proximal bone, the femur, which articulates with two distal bones, the tibia and fibula, which in turn articulate with ankle bones; and finally with typically five digits. In order to support the weight of the body on land, and permit walking, the most proximal bones of the limbs must be securely attached to the rest of the body. The humerus of the forelimb articulates with the pectoral girdle which includes the scapula (shoulder blade) and the clavicle (collar bone). The only bony attachment of the pectoral girdle to the body is the clavicle.

The femur of the hind limb articulates with the pelvic girdle, which consists of fused bones collectively called the pelvis (hip bone). It is this hind limb—with its robust pelvic girdle securely attached to the vertebral column—that differs radically from that of any fish. (The tetrapod arrangement is important for bearing the weight of the animal on land.)

All tetrapod limb bones and their attachment girdles are endochondral bones. In the case of all fish, including Tiktaalik, the cleithrum and fin rays are dermal bones.

It is significant that the “earliest” true tetrapods recognized by evolutionists (such as Acanthostega and Ichthyostega) have all of the distinguishing features of tetrapod limbs (and their attachment girdles) and were clearly capable of walking and breathing on land. The structural differences between the tetrapod leg and the fish fin is easily understood when we realize that the buoyant density of water is about a thousand times greater than that of air. A fish has no need to support much of its weight in water where it is essentially weightless.

The fins of fish (including Tiktaalik)

Essentially all fish (including Tiktaalik) have small pelvic fins relative to their pectoral fins. The legs of tetrapods are just the opposite: the hind limbs attached to the pelvic girdle are almost always more robust than the fore limbs attached to the pectoral girdle. (This is particularly obvious in animals such as kangaroos and theropod dinosaurs.) Not only are the pelvic fins of all fish small, but they’re not even attached to the axial skeleton (vertebral column) and thus can’t bear weight on land.

While the endochondral bones in the pectoral fins of Crossopterygians have some similarity to bones in the fore limbs of tetrapods, there are significant differences. For example, there is nothing even remotely comparable to the digits in any fish. The bony rays of fish fins are dermal bones that are not related in any way to digits in their structure, function or mode of development. Clearly, fin rays are relatively fragile and unsuitable for actual walking and weight bearing.

Even the smaller endochondral bones in the distal fin of Tiktaalik are not related to digits. Ahlberg and Clack point out that “although these small distal bones bear some resemblance to tetrapod digits in terms of their function and range of movement, they are still very much components of a fin. There remains a large morphological gap between them and digits as seen in, for example Acanthostega: if the digits evolved from these distal bones, the process must have involved considerable developmental rearranging.”

Thank you for all that convincing evidence that Tiktaalik is an linking form between fish and vertebrates.
 
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Heissonear

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To keep this thread on track, the discussion is to be generation of life in the lab, even to derive controlled environmental conditions and chemical constituents to then generate through natural biochemical processes replicating biomolecules like RNA abd DNA. And then on to replicating forms of life from non-life materials, as stated to occur by Naturalistic Scientists.

And to keep this matter in perspective, natural man still has no clue how life came about from non-life materals! But they promote such HAS HAPPENED. Then prove it.

.
 
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Smidlee

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[serious];65569974 said:
Seriously, imagine the following conversation:
"frank has a dog"
"No he doesn't"
"Yeah, he does, here's a picture of him with it. It's a German Shepherd"
"Ha! that's not a German Shepherd! That's a Belgian Tervuren! TOLD you he didn't have a dog!"

Now, even if that guy was right about the dog that frank has not being a German Shepherd, the Belgian Tervuren is still a dog.
Now you are referring to modern creatures and just look of how many surprised we found in the living animals. If all we had of hedgehogs were fossils they would swear it's a marsupial. Evoultionist has to do a lot of cherry picking of fossils to get anything to fit their fairytale.

Now the experts are telling us that Tiktaalik lived in shallow fresh water and had fins strong enough to push its head out of water. It was just last December when scientists were telling us that Acanthostega was the missing link between fish and tetrapods. At that time we said,
"A few years from now, evolutionists will no doubt replace this fairytale with a new one."
We admit it. We were wrong. It was just four months, not a few years.
http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v10i8n.htm


In the end it makes no difference if Tikaalik is really missing link or not as evolutionist will just replace one fairytale for another.

If one politician is running a negative campaign against another politician, and the most damning thing he can say is that the other guy got one parking ticket 28 years ago, the weakness of the charge is better evidence of innocence than guilt. If the best transitional form evolutionists can come up with is Tiktaalik, then the weakness of their claim is better evidence against evolution than for it.
I agree to that.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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To keep this thread on track, the discussion is to be generation of life in the lab, even to derive controlled environmental conditions and chemical constituents to then generate through natural biochemical processes replicating biomolecules like RNA abd DNA. And then on to replicating forms of life from non-life materials, as stated to occur by Naturalistic Scientists.

And to keep this matter in perspective, natural man still has no clue how life came about from non-life materals! But they promote such HAS HAPPENED. Then prove it.

.

If life appeared naturally, it will be possible to create life in the lab. So if and when life is created in the lab, that will count in favor of the idea that life could have appeared naturally, although of course, all by itself, that would be insufficient to establish that life did appear naturally.

Natural appearing life would have started with simpler self duplicating molecules of some sort. That start would not have been a full scale living cell as we know it. Only evolution from self duplicating molecules could naturally account for the first full scale living cell as we know it. Creation could also account for it, of course, but that wouldn't be "natural".
 
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Now you are referring to modern creatures and just look of how many surprised we found in the living animals. If all we had of hedgehogs were fossils they would swear it's a marsupial.

Why on earth would we think that?
 
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stevevw

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If life appeared naturally, it will be possible to create life in the lab. So if and when life is created in the lab, that will count in favor of the idea that life could have appeared naturally, although of course, all by itself, that would be insufficient to establish that life did appear naturally.

Natural appearing life would have started with simpler self duplicating molecules of some sort. That start would not have been a full scale living cell as we know it. Only evolution from self duplicating molecules could naturally account for the first full scale living cell as we know it. Creation could also account for it, of course, but that wouldn't be "natural".

Aren't a lot of scientist now saying that the building blocks for life may have come from somewhere else in space. It may have hitched a ride on a meteor to give a jump start to creating life. Such is the difficulty in overcoming some of the things to start life and transform it into a living cell that they now have to look outside of earth to explain things. By expanding the possibilities it allows more scope to come up with an explanation. But doesn't this only diverts the problem else where.
 
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createdtoworship

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Yes even though there will HGT it doesn't account for all variations. Darwin's Evolution through common decent will still need the morphing of one kind of animal to another and then another and so on. The head lines for Darwin's Tree being dead were a bit sensationalizing. But it has certainly changed the way they are making the tree and its becoming more of a web than a tree and linking creatures in other ways besides the traditional vertical transfer of genetics by parent to offspring and natural selection. Natural selection is not the only way genetic material can be obtained.

But maybe in the beginning there were a certain number of animals who were the heads of each group. They can have offspring's which can then crossbreed and make a certain number of new creatures and then they can also cross breed to a point. It happens in the simpler life forms like plants, sea life, bacteria and other microbes and there is evidence it occurred more than scientist realize with more complex animals. As time passed different animals continued on their particular path and became separate species which cannot breed successfully anymore with the original groups.

Also virus's could transfer gene or even sections of gnomes horizontally as well. There will be variation within the different animal groups as well by adaptation to their environments. The article you showed is maybe a little older . There has been more recent DNA evidence that has come out linking different creatures as well as some of the known so called ape men that were classed as separate species.

http://jonlieffmd.com/blog/jumping-genes-versus-epigenetics-the-real-drivers-of-evolution
Interactions between species: Powerful driving force behind evolution? -- ScienceDaily
Molecular Evolution Forum: Horizontal Gene Transfer Takes a Turn: Expansins from Plants to their Bacterial and Eukaryotic Parasites

but universal common decent fails on many levels at this point:

here is a clip from an article on it:

"interesting: how does a "reticulate evolutionary process" square with universal common descent? They give examples: the yeast phylogenetic data can only be force-fit into a tree, but then, "a species tree becomes only a mathematical average estimate of evolutionary history, and even if it is supported it suppresses conflicting phylogenetic signals." It's misleading, in other words.

Another example is the tree of placental mammals: "a problem that has been difficult to resolve as a bifurcating process because different genetic datasets support different trees." Wriggling out of the tree-thinking straitjacket can resolve these controversies: "the network provides biological explanations that go beyond what can be accommodated by a simple tree model."

Up with Networks

The team believes that network theory has matured to the point where it can be a valuable tool for biologists. It also promises job opportunities: "The further improvement of networks for evolutionary biology offers many outstanding opportunities for mathematicians, statisticians, and computer scientists."


Demolishing Darwin's Tree: Eric Bapteste and the Network of Life - Evolution News & Views

this is my last post regarding biological evolution, the topic of the thread is on chemical evolution as found by miller urey etc.
 
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stevevw

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but universal common decent fails on many levels at this point:

here is a clip from an article on it:

"interesting: how does a "reticulate evolutionary process" square with universal common descent? They give examples: the yeast phylogenetic data can only be force-fit into a tree, but then, "a species tree becomes only a mathematical average estimate of evolutionary history, and even if it is supported it suppresses conflicting phylogenetic signals." It's misleading, in other words.

Another example is the tree of placental mammals: "a problem that has been difficult to resolve as a bifurcating process because different genetic datasets support different trees." Wriggling out of the tree-thinking straitjacket can resolve these controversies: "the network provides biological explanations that go beyond what can be accommodated by a simple tree model."

Up with Networks

The team believes that network theory has matured to the point where it can be a valuable tool for biologists. It also promises job opportunities: "The further improvement of networks for evolutionary biology offers many outstanding opportunities for mathematicians, statisticians, and computer scientists."


Demolishing Darwin's Tree: Eric Bapteste and the Network of Life - Evolution News & Views

this is my last post regarding biological evolution, the topic of the thread is on chemical evolution as found by miller urey etc.
Yeah thanks for that I have seen some of these examples and it is very interesting.
 
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Smidlee

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[serious];65572206 said:
Why on earth would we think that?
This was bought out during the Dover trial. It was question of how homology (based on morphology) helps support evolution. According to the evolution fairytale the marsupial wolf (thylacine) is more closer related to a kangaroo than the placental wolf. There are less differences between the marsupial wolf and the placental wolf than there are between man and chimps. This is one of the examples of evolutionist having to cherry pick similarities in order to fit their imaginary tree.
During the trial they compared the skulls of kangaroo and the two wolves and pick out characteristics to make the case the marsupial wolf were more similar to the kangaroo than the placental wolf. This was some serious cherry picking since it so happen the hedgehog also had many of the same features that was giving to the marsupial.
This shows just how useless homology is to evolution. "Of Panda and People" got it was right. The only real difference between marsupial and placental is their mode of reproduction.
 
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This was bought out during the Dover trial. It was question of how homology (based on morphology) helps support evolution. According to the evolution fairytale the marsupial wolf (thylacine) is more closer related to a kangaroo than the placental wolf. There are less differences between the marsupial wolf and the placental wolf than there are between man and chimps. This is one of the examples of evolutionist having to cherry pick similarities in order to fit their imaginary tree.
During the trial they compared the skulls of kangaroo and the two wolves and pick out characteristics to make the case the marsupial wolf were more similar to the kangaroo than the placental wolf. This was some serious cherry picking since it so happen the hedgehog also had many of the same features that was giving to the marsupial.
This shows just how useless homology is to evolution. "Of Panda and People" got it was right. The only real difference between marsupial and placental is their mode of reproduction.

What specific similarities are you talking about? Do hedgehogs have an epipubic bone I'm unaware of? Do they lack an ossified patella?
 
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Smidlee

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[serious];65576634 said:
What specific similarities are you talking about? Do hedgehogs have an epipubic bone I'm unaware of? Do they lack an ossified patella?
Even evolutionist believe there were mammals who had epipublic bone that wasn't marsupial in the past.
 
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Even evolutionist believe there were mammals who had epipublic bone that wasn't marsupial in the past.

Is the hedgehog one of them? I've no doubt that there were animals that shared some features with marsupials that weren't marsupials. After all, that is exactly what would be expected if marsupials evolved, intermediates.

The better question would be, is the following statement true?
If all we had of hedgehogs were fossils they would swear it's a marsupial.
So far no reason has been proposed for such a grouping. The common skeletal differences between marsupials and other mammals don't seem to indicate any potentially confusing findings.
 
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[serious];65585291 said:
Is the hedgehog one of them? I've no doubt that there were animals that shared some features with marsupials that weren't marsupials. After all, that is exactly what would be expected if marsupials evolved, intermediates.
It's so easy to cherry pick only those features that they want to support their imaginary tree. There even different trees depending which features are cherry picked to support ones tree. Evolutionist didn't expect the evidence pointing in so many different directions that now some have traded in their tree for a bush.
 
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BL2KTN

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Smidlee said:
It's so easy to cherry pick only those features that they want to support their imaginary tree. There even different trees depending which features are cherry picked to support ones tree. Evolutionist didn't expect the evidence pointing in so many different directions that now some have traded in their tree for a bush.

In other words, there's no reason anyone would think a hedgehog was a marsupial. If you had found any possible way, you would have posted it.
 
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In other words, there's no reason anyone would think a hedgehog was a marsupial. If you had found any possible way, you would have posted it.
If you uses the reasoning they used at the Dover trial. Of course everyone already knows hedgehog isn't a marsupial.
 
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Smidlee said:
If you uses the reasoning they used at the Dover trial. Of course everyone already knows hedgehog isn't a marsupial.

Why would anybody use the reasoning they had at the Dover trial? A dolphin looks more like a shark than a human, yet the human and the dolphin are much more closely related. It's elementary.
 
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It's so easy to cherry pick only those features that they want to support their imaginary tree. There even different trees depending which features are cherry picked to support ones tree. Evolutionist didn't expect the evidence pointing in so many different directions that now some have traded in their tree for a bush.

That isn't an answer to my question. You said the "hedgehog also had many of the same features that was giving to the marsupial." Which features?

You said, "If all we had of hedgehogs were fossils they would swear it's a marsupial." I'm still waiting for an explanation of exactly why we would think that.
 
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