Icyspark

Active Member
Oct 2, 2020
276
218
Least coast
✟82,573.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
When you respond to the simple true or false question posed in my post:

T__F__ You have stopped beating animals.


And what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Basically when icy that people won't respond to simple questions relating to the specificity of the opening post it reveals the truth that they understand the implications should they answer honestly and forthrightly.

Your rebuttal question doesn't even work they way you intend it as it is designed to be used in a yes/no scenario. It's a false dichotomy so I can safely answer "false" and your premise disappears.

So go ahead and answer mine. They're not hard :wink:

T__ F__ There is a physical component to humans resting on the Sabbath.
T__ F__ Finding spiritual rest in Jesus is no different than drinking spiritual water. Both do not negate the continued need for their physical counterpart.
T__ F__ Resting in Jesus means that humans no longer require any physical rest.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Hi DamianWarS,

Christ takes a different approach to what? Your text reference above only reenforces the point I'm making in the opening post. Spiritual water doesn't overrule the need for physical water. This is exactly my point so I'm uncertain what you mean by "Christ seems to take a different approach."





I don't think you made the point you think you're making. How do you suppose that the role of the physical is to point tot he spiritual? Your John 3:6 reference below would appear to contradict this premise. Flesh and Spirit are different.





Yes, this is correct.

The opening post points out that one can't claim that "resting in Jesus" overturns the physical necessity for rest that Jesus provides once a week in His holy day (Isaiah 58:13).





After a lot of disconnected thoughts this last paragraph appears to be an attempt to bring your ideas back into focus with regard to the OP. But as the OP points out, there is a physical component to rest, just as there is a physical component to our need for food and water. You don't get to just arbitrarily dismiss the need for physical rest while continuing to embrace your need for physical food and water.

Let me just paraphrase your stated position above to illustrate the point:

A focus on the physical through [food and water] will only give you a physical product. As good or as needed as that may be it cannot give us the spiritual [food and water] that Christ offers which is sort of the point. We cannot partake of God's [food and water] through physical means, we must go through Christ. We may seek physical [food and water], but it cannot give us anything but physical [food and water].

Sounds rather odd when I put it like that, doesn't it?

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
I'm not sure what your point is. Physical rest of course is needed, we sleep every day. But if we are using physical rest for a spiritual goal it's going to fall short because it can only give us a physical product. Physical Rest has many benifits, and it can be used as a tool to seek spiritual rest but it is not the vehicle that gets us there nor is it an integral part of seeking spiritual rest.

Law is written upon our hearts . The very notion of that is abstract, spiritual, living and dynamic. This implicitly constrast the law which is concrete, physical, fixed and written in stone. The law very clearly points to the new so its role is the physical pointing to the spiritual.

The goal is not physical rest it is spiritual rest. Nor is the method to get to the goal physical rest. Look at the creation account. An earth unformed and of darkness and choas. Light is spoken into it which starts a process that when complete ushers in rest. The physical here is not the point, it is the spiritual. The creation account is a heruristic for the work of Christ in us. We are after all called the new creation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JulieB67
Upvote 0

Icyspark

Active Member
Oct 2, 2020
276
218
Least coast
✟82,573.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I'm not sure what your point is. Physical rest of course is needed, we sleep every day. But if we are using physical rest for a spiritual goal it's going to fall short because it can only give us a physical product. Physical Rest has many benifits, and it can be used as a tool to seek spiritual rest but it is not the vehicle that gets us there nor is it an integral part of seeking spiritual rest.


Hi DamianWarS,

I believe the opening post and the post to which you just responded are pretty plain in what my point is. Here is what a brief sentence which encapsulates my point from said last post:

The opening post points out that one can't claim that "resting in Jesus" overturns the physical necessity for rest that Jesus provides once a week in His holy day (Isaiah 58:13).

In other words you can't appeal to Matthew 11:8 and claim that Christians no longer need the Sabbath which Jesus said "was made for the good of human beings." If you attempt to spiritualize away the Sabbath based on this flimsy premise then consistency demands you must also stop drinking and eating. You don't get to play it both ways.


Law is written upon our hearts . The very notion of that is abstract, spiritual, living and dynamic. This implicitly constrast the law which is concrete, physical, fixed and written in stone. The law very clearly points to the new so its role is the physical pointing to the spiritual.


I wonder if you can tell us what law you believe the Bible indicates is written upon our hearts? And if there is a supposedly new law, what was wrong with the old one? And if there was something wrong with the old law, doesn't that also imply that the giver of that law is also flawed? And if the giver of the old law is flawed, then on what basis can you trust that the new law is going to be any better?


The goal is not physical rest it is spiritual rest. Nor is the method to get to the goal physical rest. Look at the creation account. An earth unformed and of darkness and choas. Light is spoken into it which starts a process that when complete ushers in rest. The physical here is not the point, it is the spiritual. The creation account is a heruristic for the work of Christ in us. We are after all called the new creation.


Again, spiritual rest does not supersede physical rest. From the beginning God made the Sabbath for the benefit of human beings. That benefit which we are told to call a delight did not quietly go into the night because its benefit for humanity went out of sight. The spiritual rest, food and drink which Jesus provides doesn't cancel out humanity's need for physical rest, food and drink. This is spiritual logic 101. :wink:

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Supporter
May 15, 2008
9,486
3,322
✟858,457.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Hi DamianWarS,

I believe the opening post and the post to which you just responded are pretty plain in what my point is. Here is what a brief sentence which encapsulates my point from said last post:

The opening post points out that one can't claim that "resting in Jesus" overturns the physical necessity for rest that Jesus provides once a week in His holy day (Isaiah 58:13).
In other words you can't appeal to Matthew 11:8 and claim that Christians no longer need the Sabbath which Jesus said "was made for the good of human beings." If you attempt to spiritualize away the Sabbath based on this flimsy premise then consistency demands you must also stop drinking and eating. You don't get to play it both ways.

I do not claim Christians don't need Sabbath so please don't mispresent my words. my claim is physical rest is not the vehicle or essential part of the Sabbath. Jesus does not overturn the requirement for physical rest (Mat 5:17) but he does release us from it (Eph 2:15). In those verses both may be translated as "abolished" but they are not the same greek word and have a different emphasis. Mat 5:17 is more about overturning or to destory, Eph 2:15 is more about releasing, and bringing to an end but without the force that Mat 5:17 has. So let's make it clear, I do not advocate that Christ overturned any law as he is clear in Mat 5:17 but he did fulfill. The product of that fulling is echoed in Eph 2:15.

I wonder if you can tell us what law you believe the Bible indicates is written upon our hearts? And if there is a supposedly new law, what was wrong with the old one? And if there was something wrong with the old law, doesn't that also imply that the giver of that law is also flawed? And if the giver of the old law is flawed, then on what basis can you trust that the new law is going to be any better?

2 Cor 3:3
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

there is a clear contrast between physical written law and spiritual written law here. the latter is living and dynamic, and the former is static. What is it? if you looking for a static law then you've miss the point of the role of the Spirit. Certainly, it is consistent with the 2 greatest commandments that Christ speaks of but this is less specific and is more of a heuristic for living. if you what to have a specific list of laws then you will have to ask the source which is the Spirit of the living God written upon our hearts.

Again, spiritual rest does not supersede physical rest. From the beginning God made the Sabbath for the benefit of human beings. That benefit which we are told to call a delight did not quietly go into the night because its benefit for humanity went out of sight. The spiritual rest, food and drink which Jesus provides doesn't cancel out humanity's need for physical rest, food and drink. This is spiritual logic 101. :wink:

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

spiritual rest is the goal even in physical distress. We may have spiritual rest but not physical rest. We may have physical rest but not spiritual rest. They have a different focus. Certainly, physical rest is important but it is not parallel to spiritual rest. This is also not a new goal, spiritual rest was always the goal. Again look at the creation account, read with a spiritual focus light is spoken into darkness which begins a work that when complete ushers in rest. That is exactly what salvation is.

Your focus seems to hinge on the need for physical rest yet the 7th day is not about physical rest. Before light is spoken the earth existed in chaos, this is contrasted with the 7th day which exists in a state of completion and rest (there is a very intentional chiastic structure in the account that shows this), an implied product of this is a physical balance that can be inferred by the contrast of the chaos as well as God proclaiming creation is very good; this balance may be referenced as physical rest. although these are still products of the 7th day which I do not deny it is not the focus of the 7th day. The focus is on God's completed works which ushers in his rest. Since God has no need for rest the purpose of entering his rest was never about the need for the physical even if it is a product of this rest. God rests because the work is finished, not because he is tired and that's an important distinction. We too may rest because Christ completed his work when he uttered on the cross "it is finished" and breathed his last. Under Christ, we exist in a continual state of the 7th day. This is not to play down our need for the physical, but rather to proclaim the gospel and the completed work of Christ.

You may celebrate the completed work of creation every Sabbath day, I celebrate the complete work of Christ without the boundary of days and call this Sabbath. The completed work of Christ ushers the Sabbath in my life and it is integral to my living, both spiritual and physical. Christ can do this because he has the authority over the sabbath (which is what Lord of the Sabbath means), he was also there when it was first made. We are indeed not made for the sabbath but the sabbath for us. The sabbath gives us all Christ offers us and he came to save us. The Sabbath it is made for us, unique to our needs and conditions; it is the answer to all the chaos and darkness of our lives as the 7th day is the answer to the chaos and darkness of creation. You may be content to see this as a day, I see it as a way of living.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0