Spiritual Knowledge

[AV1611VET]

Science isn't in the business of proving myths.

Good.

It works on facts only.

Neat.

 

[AV1611VET]

Even if their faith demanded your death?

If their faith demanded my death, why would he be standing around comparing notes with me?

Did Khomaniac discuss it with Mr. Rushdie before placing a fatwa on him for his Satanic Verses?

(Which, by the way, was fiction.)

Even Cat "Peace Train" Stevens agreed with it.

Your scripture saying mine is wrong, isn't important.

Then what is this thread all about?

You need to prove it's wrong.

In this thread?

I can show you Harry Potter, doesn't make it true.

That's right.

 

[AV1611VET]

Because of bibles.

And they're wrong, aren't they?

There are many passages in many bibles that tell people to kill the other side.

I somehow don't think mainline religions refer to their writings as "bibles."

If, however, you meant the Bible ... then, yes.

There are many passages that told people to kill the other side.

At the moment we have war in the Middle East over two sides that can't decide who was the true follower of Mohammed, we had one in Europe for 30 years.

Are they being hypocritical, in your opinion?

Or are they being true to their religion?

This is the same religions using bible texts to kill.

No.

Don't start me on different religions. To long a list.

I'd say you're in the wrong thread then, my friend.

 

[paulm50]

If their faith demanded my death, why would he be standing around comparing notes with me?

Did Khomaniac discuss it with Mr. Rushdie before placing a fatwa on him for his Satanic Verses?

He's waiting for you

Then what is this thread all about?In this thread?That's right.

I was answering your question. Yes you have to do more than offer a story or text.

Science isn't about text, it's based on solid evidence.
Religion is all about text, it has little evidence.

I can say the moon was full of horses and chariots made out of cheese, and then changed to rock by my magic wand.

Doesn't make it true. Absurd example, like the Wooden horse of Troy, Romulus and Remus being suckled by a she wolf, the Sun demanding sacrifices of human hearts. All written by religious scribes. Or carved into stones. Doesn't make any of them true. You can apply this to modern invented Christian sects.

And yet they can all claim to have come to their conclusions by Spiritual Knowledge. It's a dangerous way to proceed.

 

[AV1611VET]

He's waiting for you

And with that, we're done.

Have a nice day.

 

[Poor Beggar]

I've often heard from believers that science can only learn about the realm of the material and we need religion to learn about the spiritual realm....or similar such things.

The point is that they believe there is such a thing as spiritual knowledge. The idea that there is spiritual knowledge seems to imply there are spiritual "truths". That is...there are things that are true about the spiritual realm.

This got me to thinking of a question. I'd invite anyone who believes that spiritual truths exist to answer.

If you met someone who knew a spiritual "truth" that was completely contradictory and incompatible with your spiritual "truth"....how would you go about figuring out which one of you is correct? Is there a method, means, or some standard to determine spiritual truths by?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

We need a document that tells us. That document ought to confirm itself through fulfilled prophecies. If we don't have that then we have everyone inventing their own truths, which in my experience, is exactly what people who don't believe in "spiritual truths" do. They just don't admit they're doing it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes.

The word "religion" aside ... yes.

So basically, you don't determine spiritual truth...you just assume that you have it and compare everyone else's "knowledge" against that?

 

[Ana the Ist]

We need a document that tells us. That document ought to confirm itself through fulfilled prophecies. If we don't have that then we have everyone inventing their own truths, which in my experience, is exactly what people who don't believe in "spiritual truths" do. They just don't admit they're doing it.

Ok...

So you trust a "document" regarding spiritual truths as long as it's demonstrated some sort of spiritual knowledge...like a prophecy.

How would you go about determining whether or not a prophecy has been fulfilled?

 

[Poor Beggar]

Ok...

So you trust a "document" regarding spiritual truths as long as it's demonstrated some sort of spiritual knowledge...like a prophecy.

How would you go about determining whether or not a prophecy has been fulfilled?

When it comes to pass. It happens. This conversation is starting to feel overly pedantic and it's barely begun. Just being honest.

 

[Poor Beggar]

Ok...

So you trust a "document" regarding spiritual truths as long as it's demonstrated some sort of spiritual knowledge...like a prophecy.

How would you go about determining whether or not a prophecy has been fulfilled?

To be a bit nicer, what you're engaging in is deconstructionism. The problem with deconstructionism is it can go on ad infinitum and ad nauseum. No matter what the opposition responds with, the deconstructionist can always resort to demonstrating that that answer can't be verifiably proven or known. It's like saying there is no such thing as daytime because we can't prove at what exact point nighttime becomes daytime. But the flaw with deconstructionism is parameters aren't the deciding factor. Common sense is. For example, not knowing at what exact time night became day doesn't stop me from walking outside at high noon and saying, "Whoa! It's bright out! Must be daytime." Can't prove it....

So, how do you determine a prophecy is fulfilled...well, it's fulfilled. Otherwise we start to play the pedantic deconstructionist game where nothing can ever be reasonably known.

 

[variant]

Lol ahhh...no jokes, I was debating on putting something almost exactly like that into the OP. I decided against because I want to see some serious answers and not just angry snarky comeback posts.

It isn't a joke. Sticking pointy things in people is one of the ways the unanswerable disagreements between religions are resolved when real conflict comes up.

Others include: Miracles, prophecy, new revelations, basically just convincing people you are correct and broader social coercion.

 

[Poor Beggar]

It isn't a joke. Sticking pointy things in people is one of the ways the unanswerable disagreements between religions are resolved when real conflict comes up.

Others include: Miracles, prophecy, new revelations, basically just convincing people you are correct and broader social coercion.

It's a good point. You either force conversion at the end of a sword or you let people have faith in things that can't be seen (read: "measured" or "observable").

 

[paulm50]

And they're wrong, aren't they?

Without proof they are right, they have to be questioned.

I somehow don't think mainline religions refer to their writings as "bibles."

You know exactly what I mean.

If, however, you meant the Bible ... then, yes.

Which Christian bible, Mormons, Witnesses, Adventists, Orthodox, RCC, Methodists?

There are many passages that told people to kill the other side. Are they being hypocritical, in your opinion?

Depends on context, if it's only to steal their belonging and land, what do you think?

Or are they being true to their religion?No.I'd say you're in the wrong thread then, my friend.

Well the orders come from spiritual knowledge, so why do you say this is the wrong trhead?[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[paulm50]

And with that, we're done.

Have a nice day.

Sorry I didn't right it out. He's waiting for you to convert. This was standard practice with many religions. convert of die.

 

[paulm50]

We need a document that tells us. That document ought to confirm itself through fulfilled prophecies. If we don't have that then we have everyone inventing their own truths, which in my experience, is exactly what people who don't believe in "spiritual truths" do. They just don't admit they're doing it.

https://www.google.cz/webhp?hl=en&g...OuswGg2J_QCw#hl=en&q=jehovah+witness+prophecy

 

[Poor Beggar]

https://www.google.cz/webhp?hl=en&g...OuswGg2J_QCw#hl=en&q=jehovah+witness+prophecy

Exactly.

 

[variant]

To be a bit nicer, what you're engaging in is deconstructionism. The problem with deconstructionism is it can go on ad infinitum and ad nauseum. No matter what the opposition responds with, the deconstructionist can always resort to demonstrating that that answer can't be verifiably proven or known. It's like saying there is no such thing as daytime because we can't prove at what exact point nighttime becomes daytime. But the flaw with deconstructionism is parameters aren't the deciding factor. Common sense is. For example, not knowing at what exact time night became day doesn't stop me from walking outside at high noon and saying, "Whoa! It's bright out! Must be daytime." Can't prove it....

So, how do you determine a prophecy is fulfilled...well, it's fulfilled. Otherwise we start to play the pedantic deconstructionist game where nothing can ever be reasonably known.

What we need to know with prophecy is when it was originated not whether or not it was "fulfilled".

 

[variant]

It's a good point. You either force conversion at the end of a sword or you let people have faith in things that can't be seen (read: "measured" or "observable").

Can't have knowledge about non observable things though.

 

[Poor Beggar]

What we need to know with prophecy is when it was originated not whether or not it was "fulfilled".

A person who's worldview doesn't allow for prophecy because it falls under "spiritual truths" or "spiritual knowledge" would simply debate the evidence presented for the date of the prophecy. They would debate it no matter what. We see this with Daniel's prophecies. Those have been successfully dated but you can't convince the unbeliever because it upsets his or her worldview. Most people aren't really going to uproot their whole way of knowing reality.

 

[variant]

A person who's worldview doesn't allow for prophecy because it falls under "spiritual truths" or "spiritual knowledge" would simply debate the evidence presented for the date of the prophecy. They would debate it no matter what. We see this with Daniel's prophecies. Those have been successfully dated but you can't convince the unbeliever because it upsets his or her worldview. Most people aren't really going to uproot their whole way of knowing reality.

Or Ezekiel's unfulfilled prophecy, still somehow counts even though demonstrably wrong.