Special Inward Call?

[Foghorn]

I know you wouldn't say that God's purposes would fail, Mr. G. What I should have said is that "I object to your view because I see Scripture putting the salvation of man in the hands of God, and if He ever purposes to save a person, that person will be saved, of He has failed."

I agree.

 

[Eddie L]

I AM NEVER SELF-DETERMINING.

Not sure exactly what you mean by self-determining.

Self-Determining = Self-Caused.

I don't believe our choices are ever made without a cause outside of ourselves. The reason for every choice we make doesn't originate inside of us.

 

[gmm4j]

This is a good argument for why an unregenerate person can have faith. We do not live in a vacuum. There are outside stimuli having influence upon our nature. "The reason for every choice we make doesn't originate inside of us."

 

[Eddie L]

This is a good argument for why an unregenerate person can have faith. We do not live in a vacuum. There are outside stimuli having influence upon our nature. "The reason for every choice we make doesn't originate inside of us."

God is the one who governs all that stimuli. "becauseI chose to" is never a reason for anything.

 

[gmm4j]

The stimuli influences the "Because I chose to" but does not nullify it. God has graciously given us the response ability.

 

[Eddie L]

The stimuli influences the "Because I chose to" but does not nullify it. God has graciously given us the response ability.

I don't see the point you're making. Of course we respond, but we're responding to a cause that God created. We are never self-caused. You could make any list of reasons why you believe the gospel, and any answer but "I chose to" might be valid. "I chose to" or "I responded" is not a reason, it's just a statement of action.

There is no reason that is valid in a list of reasons as to why we believe the gospel that is not rooted in something God has done or something God is. For example:

1. Jesus is beautiful
2. I am moved by what Jesus did for me
3. I know I am guilty of sin
4. I need the burden of sin lifted from my shoulders
5. I've never been loved like this before
6. There is no valid reason to object to the truth of Scripture

These are not self-caused reasons. Even if we look under the covers, we still have questions with God-centered answers:

1. Why do you think Jesus is beautiful?
2. Why were you moved by what Jesus did?
3. How do you know you're guilty?
4. Why do you feel the burden of sin?
5. How do you know God loves you?
6. Why do you accept the Bible's truth?

The Spirit of God answers these questions, right? So we're not down to anything self-caused yet. Biology could be an influence, but God own's that. He decides who our parents are and know what we're be like before we're even born. We could talk about life experiences, but God has that covered, too, and even if He didn't (if it was all chance), we're still not into self-caused questions and answers. We do not simply choose things. We choose for a reason, and every choice we make is ultimately a response to something outside of us.

What that finally means is that there is no free will in the sense a lot of people want to use it. We choose what we want to choose, but the reasons for our desires are outside of our control.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey Eddie L (you are in red),

Originally Posted by gmm4j http://www.christianforums.com/t7690263-7/#post61500837
The stimuli influences the "Because I chose to" but does not nullify it. God has graciously given us the response ability.

I don't see the point you're making. Of course we respond, but we're responding to a cause that God created. We are never self-caused. You could make any list of reasons why you believe the gospel, and any answer but "I chose to" might be valid. "I chose to" or "I responded" is not a reason, it's just a statement of action.
Okay. When I heard that Jesus was my salvation I believed it to be true.
Why did I believe it to be true? Be CAUSE through Scripture and the testimony of others He told me that He was my salvation.
How did I believe it to be true? I chose to. By the ability graciously given by God I positively acted (responded) to the offer I had heard.

If you are saying that it is a long complex string that God tugs on and you respond exactly how He wants, then I reject the suggestion. If you are, then you are in danger of making God the author of evil.

Let’s shorten the string. God placed Adam in a garden with a tree that He was told not to eat from. God caused the tree to be there. He caused Adam to be there. God caused there to be qualities about the tree that were appealing to Adam. God caused there to be a multitude of other opportunities for Adam so this tree was not the only choice. God defined Adam’s freedom and He defined Adam’s restriction. Obviously, Adam had the God-given ability to go beyond God’s prohibition. And, it is inferred that he had the God-given ability to stay within the set bounds of freedom. God caused/allowed satan (I believe satan’s will was involved) to draw attention to the tree providing the grounds for a test for man.

I think this is the shortest string we are going to get. Does the string lead back to God making Adam choose to sin? I don’t believe it does. Why did Adam choose to sin?

• Proximity to the tree (caused by God).
• Tree had appealing characteristics (caused by God).
• Satan drawing attention to it (caused/allowed by God).
• This woman you gave me (caused/allowed by God).

These are influences (stimuli) that certainly had a bearing on Adam’s decision, but they did not make him choose to eat the fruit.

Why did he eat? For the reasons above.

How did he eat? He chose to eat with his God-given ability.

Did God make him eat? No.

Did God really want Adam to disobey His command and therefore He made the causes purposely overwhelming for Adam? - And, the whole test was just a big charade? I don’t believe that is who our God is.

Did God want an obedient son who would willingly desire to stay in relationship with Him? I believe so.

So, Adam ate and was expelled from the garden and the tree of life.

Now, mankind through Christ has been reintroduced to the tree of life. Why would we choose Life?

• Proximity. Jesus came to dwell among us (caused by God).
• Salvation has appealing characteristics (caused by God).
• Holy Spirit draws attention to it (caused by God).
• This woman you gave me (the church) testifies to its goodness (caused by God).

These are influences (stimuli) that certainly had a bearing on my decision, but they did not make (force) me choose to partake of Christ.

Why did I eat? For the reasons above.

How did I eat? I chose to eat with my God-given ability.

Did God make me eat? No.

Did God really want me to obey His command and therefore He made the causes purposely overwhelming for me? - And, the whole presentation of Christ was just a big charade? I don’t believe that is who our God is. I believe the causes were gloriously sufficient, but never took away my ability to resist.

Did God want an obedient son who would willingly desire to stay in relationship with Him? I believe so.

So, I have partaken of Christ and have been granted access to the garden and the tree of life.


There is no reason that is valid in a list of reasons as to why we believe the gospel that is not rooted in something God has done or something God is. For example:

1. Jesus is beautiful
2. I am moved by what Jesus did for me
3. I know I am guilty of sin
4. I need the burden of sin lifted from my shoulders
5. I've never been loved like this before
6. There is no valid reason to object to the truth of Scripture

These are not self-caused reasons. Even if we look under the covers, we still have questions with God-centered answers:

1. Why do you think Jesus is beautiful?
2. Why were you moved by what Jesus did?
3. How do you know you're guilty?
4. Why do you feel the burden of sin?
5. How do you know God loves you?
6. Why do you accept the Bible's truth?

The Spirit of God answers these questions, right? So we're not down to anything self-caused yet. Biology could be an influence, but God own's that. He decides who our parents are and knows what we're be like before we're even born. We could talk about life experiences, but God has that covered, too, and even if He didn't (if it was all chance), we're still not into self-caused questions and answers. We do not simply choose things. We choose for a reason, and every choice we make is ultimately a response to something outside of us.

I’ve agreed with this. We do choose things. However, you are right “We do not simply choose things.” There are many influences that affect our decisions. There are reasons why we choose what we choose. True.

What that finally means is that there is no free will in the sense a lot of people want to use it. We choose what we want to choose, but the reasons for our desires are outside of our control.

As you have said, we choose what we want to choose based on outside stimuli that are introduced into our lives and are out of our control. This is why we are to bring the good news to all creation!

 

[Arcoe]

God is the one who governs all that stimuli. "becauseI chose to" is never a reason for anything.

I have never been given a sufficient answer to this.

Having been regenerated with a new nature, given the Spirit and grace, given faith, given a new life with great and exceeding promises, why in the world would a person choose to sin? Who is to blame for sinning with all these wonderful things from God?

Since you say God is the cause of all things, is God causing you to sin?

Does the new nature cause you to sin?

How does God get a spotless church without blemish if He causes the church to sin?

Is God tempting you to sin?

How is it that you sin outside of personal choice?

I think the Reformed have great problem with sin when nullifying the free-will of man. How do you answer these questions Eddie?

 

[Eddie L]

Originally Posted by gmm4j
Okay. When I heard that Jesus was my salvation I believed it to be true.

Why did I believe it to be true? Be CAUSE through Scripture and the testimony of others He told me that He was my salvation.

How did I believe it to be true? I chose to. By the ability graciously given by God I positively acted (responded) to the offer I had heard.

Most of us have the physical and mental ability to believe anything. The HOW is not a reason. The CAUSE is the reason. If the beauty of Christ was the reason, HE was the CAUSE. If the joy that comes from being relieved of the burden of sin, HE was the CAUSE.

If you are saying that it is a long complex string that God tugs on and you respond exactly how He wants, then I reject the suggestion. If you are, then you are in danger of making God the author of evil.

But here's where you are making a symmetry that isn't there. Man sins by default. The absence of the Spirit is an absence of righteousness, just like darkness is the absence of light. When man chooses the good, it is because of an objective, direct intervention from God. He is the CAUSE of good, because without the Spirit there is no good. When man chooses to sin, he's just doing what he is inclined to do, because without the Spirit man loves darkness rather than light.

Let’s shorten the string. God placed Adam in a garden with a tree that He was told not to eat from. God caused the tree to be there. He caused Adam to be there. God caused there to be qualities about the tree that were appealing to Adam. God caused there to be a multitude of other opportunities for Adam so this tree was not the only choice. God defined Adam’s freedom and He defined Adam’s restriction. Obviously, Adam had the God-given ability to go beyond God’s prohibition. And, it is inferred that he had the God-given ability to stay within the set bounds of freedom. God caused/allowed satan (I believe satan’s will was involved) to draw attention to the tree providing the grounds for a test for man.

We know God planned the Fall. If God had not planned it, He could've done ANYTHING to ensure it didn't happen. But even the situation you're describing is not symmetrical to a person after the fall coming to faith. There was a difference between the spiritual realities in Adam's situation to the spiritual realities of the unregenerate. We don't know exactly what the details of those differences are, but to use Adam as an example is like trying to use a new car as a model for buying a used car.

I think this is the shortest string we are going to get. Does the string lead back to God making Adam choose to sin? I don’t believe it does. Why did Adam choose to sin?

• Proximity to the tree (caused by God).
• Tree had appealing characteristics (caused by God).
• Satan drawing attention to it (caused/allowed by God).
• This woman you gave me (caused/allowed by God).

These are influences (stimuli) that certainly had a bearing on Adam’s decision, but they did not make him choose to eat the fruit.

Why did he eat? For the reasons above.

How did he eat? He chose to eat with his God-given ability.

Did God make him eat? No.

Did God really want Adam to disobey His command and therefore He made the causes purposely overwhelming for Adam? - And, the whole test was just a big charade? I don’t believe that is who our God is.

First, Adam choosing one sin is not the equivalent of a person coming to saving faith. Even believers sin. Second, the Spirit is not ever a motivator for sin, and the credit to man's regeneration and faith goes to the Spirit. That means that our fear of making God the author of evil does not justify us denying Him as being the Cause of all good.

Second, God is All Powerful. At a thought, anything regarding the situation in the Garden could have been changed by Him, or even done over. In a blink, Adam could've been recreated, time could've been rewound, the Tree could've been removed, etc. In any case, for whatever reason, the Fall was God's plan. The only logical way to deny that is to become an Open Theist.

Now, mankind through Christ has been reintroduced to the tree of life. Why would we choose Life?

• Proximity. Jesus came to dwell among us (caused by God).
• Salvation has appealing characteristics (caused by God).
• Holy Spirit draws attention to it (caused by God).
• This woman you gave me (the church) testifies to its goodness (caused by God).

These are influences (stimuli) that certainly had a bearing on my decision, but they did not make (force) me choose to partake of Christ.

They CAUSED it. They were the CAUSE of belief. They are all God's intervention, and they did what they set out to do. What reason (and HOW doesn't cause) is there for belief that is internal to the will?

Did God make me eat? No.

He CAUSED it. It is BECAUSE of Him that we are in Christ Jesus. If He isn't the cause, we believe for no good reason.

 

[Eddie L]

I have never been given a sufficient answer to this.

Having been regenerated with a new nature, given the Spirit and grace, given faith, given a new life with great and exceeding promises, why in the world would a person choose to sin? Who is to blame for sinning with all these wonderful things from God?

God's plan is to grow us over time. We're not glorified at conversion. Our faith is strengthened by experiencing God throughout our lifetime.

We rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. (Romans 5:3b)
​

Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. (James 1:2)
​

What these passages indicate is that the means God has decided to use to grow us in Him is us bumping up against our weakness. It is how He has decided to grow our character. You agree with this, right? It's not anything unique to Calvinism.

Since you say God is the cause of all things, is God causing you to sin?

This is a deep question that involves a deep answer. If you're looking for a short answer or ammunition for an argument, this isn't worth discussing. If you're looking to understand Calvinism, we can get into it.

How does God get a spotless church without blemish if He causes the church to sin?

These are weird questions. God gets a church without blemish in two ways. First, He decides to view us as being righteous like Christ. Second, using our weaknesses as teaching tools, He gifts each of us in ways that produce fruit in the others. He grows us through experiences He ordains and Spiritual gifts He gives to one for the benefit of another.

Is God tempting you to sin?

No, of course not. But God has ordained the circumstances in which I sin. The Spirit (Who is God interacting with me) is what empowers me to overcome sin.

How is it that you sin outside of personal choice?

This is an even weirder question. It's so weird that I don't understand what you mean.

I think the Reformed have great problem with sin when nullifying the free-will of man.

We don't nullify the free will of man. We just define it a bit differently. Man chooses. That's a no-brainer. Man chooses what he wants to choose. That, too, is a no-brainer. But man's freedom does not go so far as to make man self-caused.

There is some mysterious fake Calvinism that you seem to argue against. The beliefs we truly have aren't as out there as you seem to think. Sometimes it challenges us to rethink some presuppositions, but it's not this odd fatalistic straw man that you think it is.

 

[Arcoe]

gmm4j: Did God make me eat? No.

Eddie L: He CAUSED it. It is BECAUSE of Him that we are in Christ Jesus. If He isn't the cause, we believe for no good reason.

Let me get this straight, God CAUSED Adam to eat of the tree. Therefore, God CAUSED Adam to sin. How sad that the church of the Living God has gone this far.

Calvinistic beliefs compel you to say this about a holy God, Who knows no sin. But yet, you have no fear of placing God as the cause of sin.

If one would only truly believe what the Bible says about the origin of sin, he wouldn't fall into these traps. But Calvinists rather place their faith on what the Westminster Confessions say, rather than search the Bible and its truths. You will never find where God CAUSED anyone to sin in the Bible, but the pages of the WC are blooming with these accusations.

James plainly states the origin of sin, and it has nothing to do with God.

James 1 -
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

First of all, it states God does NOT tempt anyone, and it is from temptation that sin originates. Each man, woman, and child is tempted when they are carried away and enticed by THEIR own lust.

However, being enticed by lust is not sin; it is when lust has conceived (seizes, takes one as a prisoner), that it gives birth (origin) to sin. If left in place, sin brings forth death.

Why invent fantasies with man's weak mind about the cause of sin, when the word emphatically states the cause of sin, and God is nowhere in the cause. If God gave you the gift of faith, as you claim, then by all means, use it and believe the truths in His word.

 

[Arcoe]

God's plan is to grow us over time. We're not glorified at conversion. Our faith is strengthened by experiencing God throughout our lifetime.

We rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. (Romans 5:3b)
​

Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. (James 1:2)
​

What these passages indicate is that the means God has decided to use to grow us in Him is us bumping up against our weakness. It is how He has decided to grow our character. You agree with this, right? It's not anything unique to Calvinism.

This is a deep question that involves a deep answer. If you're looking for a short answer or ammunition for an argument, this isn't worth discussing. If you're looking to understand Calvinism, we can get into it.



These are weird questions. God gets a church without blemish in two ways. First, He decides to view us as being righteous like Christ. Second, using our weaknesses as teaching tools, He gifts each of us in ways that produce fruit in the others. He grows us through experiences He ordains and Spiritual gifts He gives to one for the benefit of another.



No, of course not. But God has ordained the circumstances in which I sin. The Spirit (Who is God interacting with me) is what empowers me to overcome sin.

This is an even weirder question. It's so weird that I don't understand what you mean.

We don't nullify the free will of man. We just define it a bit differently. Man chooses. That's a no-brainer. Man chooses what he wants to choose. That, too, is a no-brainer. But man's freedom does not go so far as to make man self-caused.

There is some mysterious fake Calvinism that you seem to argue against. The beliefs we truly have aren't as out there as you seem to think. Sometimes it challenges us to rethink some presuppositions, but it's not this odd fatalistic straw man that you think it is.

Thank you for your explanations, but you didn't answer how a man with the new nature he received from God can sin therefrom. You are quick to point out the unregenerate sins from his old nature, but can't explain how a man sins from the new nature.

Do you still have your old nature from which you sin? How do Calvinists explain their condition of sinning with a new nature?

 

[Eddie L]

Let me get this straight, God CAUSED Adam to eat of the tree. Therefore, God CAUSED Adam to sin. How sad that the church of the Living God has gone this far.

Calvinistic beliefs compel you to say this about a holy God, Who knows no sin. But yet, you have no fear of placing God as the cause of sin.

If one would only truly believe what the Bible says about the origin of sin, he wouldn't fall into these traps. But Calvinists rather place their faith on what the Westminster Confessions say, rather than search the Bible and its truths. You will never find where God CAUSED anyone to sin in the Bible, but the pages of the WC are blooming with these accusations.

James plainly states the origin of sin, and it has nothing to do with God.

James 1 -
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

First of all, it states God does NOT tempt anyone, and it is from temptation that sin originates. Each man, woman, and child is tempted when they are carried away and enticed by THEIR own lust.

However, being enticed by lust is not sin; it is when lust has conceived (seizes, takes one as a prisoner), that it gives birth (origin) to sin. If left in place, sin brings forth death.

Why invent fantasies with man's weak mind about the cause of sin, when the word emphatically states the cause of sin, and God is nowhere in the cause. If God gave you the gift of faith, as you claim, then by all means, use it and believe the truths in His word.

How did you get from " It is BECAUSE of Him that we are in Christ Jesus" to "God caused Adam to eat of the tree?"

 

[Eddie L]

Thank you for your explanations, but you didn't answer how a man with the new nature he received from God can sin therefrom. You are quick to point out the unregenerate sins from his old nature, but can't explain how a man sins from the new nature.

Do you still have your old nature from which you sin? How do Calvinists explain their condition of sinning with a new nature?

Because our new nature is not a glorified nature. God is growing us over time. The nature we've been given can sin or not sin. It isn't the sinless nature we'll have when we're glorified. I said that already, didn't I?

 

[Arcoe]

Because our new nature is not a glorified nature. God is growing us over time. The nature we've been given can sin or not sin. It isn't the sinless nature we'll have when we're glorified. I said that already, didn't I?

Thank you for your response. Now you have explained it well, and I agree, except I wouldn't say our new nature isn't glorified, but that it is being renewed to a true knowledge of Christ (Colossians 3:10).

This is why I believe regeneration takes times and lasts the life of man. As Paul says in Colossians 3:8, "But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth."

Paul is speaking to Christians who have been raised up with Christ, but yet tells them to NOW put these things aside which belong to the old self. Paul says they have put on the new self in verse 10 (indicating a past action), and in Ephesians 4, to put on the new self (indicating a present action).

However, in both instances, the old self is to be put aside first, before the new self can be put on. This is keeping with Jesus' saying in Mark 2:22, "No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins."

We are told to put off the old man (death) first, and then put on the new man (life). This agrees perfectly with Ezekiel 18:31, "Cast away from you all your transgressions (the old self) which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit (the new self)!

When a man puts aside, casts away, flees the old man and its sin, and puts on the new man, this is true regeneration, for now he is living in newness of life, with the old life put to death.

This also agrees with Romans 6:4, "Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life." Burial signifies death (the death of the old man and his deeds), and resurrection signifies life (the new man in newness of life).

Whereas we once hated in the old man, we are able through Christ to overcome and put hate to death, we will be raised from this death, through the glory of the Father, and walk in newness of life by now loving our brethren, neighbors, and even our enemies.

 

[gmm4j]

Where in Scripture is it explicitly stated that there is a special irresistible inward call that is issued by God to the elect alone resulting in regeneration?