Speaking In Tounges...

[His_disciple3]

Yes, it appears like the Corinthians were busy holding a circus so Paul had to step in and tell them a thing-or-two about order and the uselessness of languages that can't be understood.

Jesus wasn't so gentile. "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign..."

Mark 16:14-18
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 .They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
KJV
this is not the disciples only that these signs would follow but to those that believed what the disciples preached, the signs would follow them

 

[NvxiaLee]

this is not the disciples only that these signs would follow but to those that believed what the disciples preached, the signs would follow them

There's a big difference between wanting to see signs and being offered signs.

Throughout the Bible, the seeking of signs has always been associated with evil. Righteous King Ahaz refused to ask for a sign, even when God told him to ask, on the grounds that he will not test God. God went ahead and gave him a sign, the virgin birth.

 

[stelow]

How many of these signs, listed in the verses, that you just quoted, do you see following them that believe?


Mark 16:17 - 18

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

[stelow]

Here's a good verse, that speaks about signs.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 (NIV)

9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm not saying everyone who's speaking in tongues got that from Satan. Just most of them. As I said before, there is a simple test to tell the difference.

The best test is found in 1 John where he says:

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

I have not found one sound Pentecostal who will not say that Jesus came in the flesh.

Somewhere else it says that only someone filled with the Spirit can say that Jesus Christ is Lord. Therefore, if a person who speaks in tongues and is not filled with the Spirit, cannot say that Jesus is Lord. Actually, the Lordship of Christ is one of the prime doctrines of the Pentecostal movement.

So, these are the Scriptural tests, and Pentecostals pass every one.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Do what, you have twisted what I said, to something I didn't say.

You certainly implied it.

Paul's teaching to the Corinthians showed the correct way of exercising tongues. In other words, the correct use of tongues is a sign of spiritual maturity, not the other way round.

Actually, I don't see in 1 Corinthians that Paul was trying to correct a fascination with the miraculous. He seemed to be more concerned about restoring order to their services and to get the elders to deal with the immoral person in their midst.

 

[OzSpen]

The best test is found in 1 John where he says:

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

I have not found one sound Pentecostal who will not say that Jesus came in the flesh.

Somewhere else it says that only someone filled with the Spirit can say that Jesus Christ is Lord. Therefore, if a person who speaks in tongues and is not filled with the Spirit, cannot say that Jesus is Lord. Actually, the Lordship of Christ is one of the prime doctrines of the Pentecostal movement.

So, these are the Scriptural tests, and Pentecostals pass every one.

Oscarr,

Are you promoting the view that tongues is the "initial physical evidence" of the baptism with the Holy Spirit and that one will not be able to speak in tongues without this experience?

In Christ, Oz

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Jesus wasn't so gentile. "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign..."

Jesus was not referring to Christians using the gifts of the Spirit or expecting miraculous signs and wonders to follow the preaching of the Gospel.

If you knew about the Jewish attitude at the beginning of the First Century AD, you would know that the Jews were looking for miraculous signs in the sky to herald the coming of the Messiah. Because they were too busy looking for those signs, they missed the true Messiah when He appeared. That was what Jesus was referring to.

It is a dishonest stretch of the words of Jesus to infer that He was discouraging Christians seeking for and expecting miracles to accompany the preaching of the Gospel. He would not have told the Apostles that they would do the works He did, even greater works. He sent 70 ordinary people out into the villages to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, and cast out demons. This doesn't sound like Jesus disapproving of miracles done by New Testament Christians.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Here's a good verse, that speaks about signs.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 (NIV)

9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,

Those signs and wonders will have the characteristic of glorifying the human agent. The New Age movement is the start of that.

John Calvin taught that the role of miracles was to prove that Jesus is really alive and the Gospel is really true. Miracles from God will always glorify Jesus. Satan will never glorify Jesus or acknowledge Him as Lord.

The false signs and wonders will distract people away from the Lordship of Jesus and will put the emphasis on the human miracle worker.

These false signs and wonders are already being seen in third world countries, practiced by magic men and witch doctors. It is quite obvious that these do not glorify Christ, because when a mission team arrives in those areas, and Gospel miracles occur, the hearts of the people are turned to Christ.

You ought to be honest, and come right out and state that you think that Pentecostal tongues are part of the false signs and wonders from Satan, instead of implying it by quoting Scriptures out of context.

 

[OzSpen]

.
It is a dishonest stretch of the words of Jesus to infer that He was discouraging Christians seeking for and expecting miracles to accompany the preaching of the Gospel. He would not have told the Apostles that they would do the works He did, even greater works. He sent 70 ordinary people out into the villages to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, and cast out demons. This doesn't sound like Jesus disapproving of miracles done by New Testament Christians.

Oscarr,

Your statement caused me to think on what Jesus said to his disciples in John 14:12,

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father (ESV).

He did not say that "if you 12 disciples believe in me, you will also to the works that I do; and greater works than these will you 12 do (including the miraculous)." Jesus made it crystal clear that the "works" and "greater works" applied to "whoever believes in me" and that includes us in the 21st century who believe in Christ.

Surely John 14:12 is a statement by Jesus that affirms the continuing works, even greater works, than Jesus - including the miraculous.

However, the miraculous manifestations/works are according to the Lord God's sovereign will.

In Christ, Oz

 

[chris4243]

Those signs and wonders will have the characteristic of glorifying the human agent. The New Age movement is the start of that.

John Calvin taught that the role of miracles was to prove that Jesus is really alive and the Gospel is really true. Miracles from God will always glorify Jesus. Satan will never glorify Jesus or acknowledge Him as Lord.

The false signs and wonders will distract people away from the Lordship of Jesus and will put the emphasis on the human miracle worker.

These false signs and wonders are already being seen in third world countries, practiced by magic men and witch doctors. It is quite obvious that these do not glorify Christ, because when a mission team arrives in those areas, and Gospel miracles occur, the hearts of the people are turned to Christ.

You ought to be honest, and come right out and state that you think that Pentecostal tongues are part of the false signs and wonders from Satan, instead of implying it by quoting Scriptures out of context.

This is exactly the test I was referring to when I said it would be fairly easy to distinguish people who's speaking in tongues is from God and people who talk gibberish from the Devil. So here is the test: does the person speak in tongues more often when by himself than he does when in church in the absence of an interpreter? Would he rather speak 5 intelligible words in church than a thousand in a tongue? This will tell you whether the individual in question is trying to edify himself, edify his church, or glorify himself in the sight of man.

 

[His_disciple3]

How many of these signs, listed in the verses, that you just quoted, do you see following them that believe?


Mark 16:17 - 18

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

well that depends on what the believer believes or what doctrine they were raised under now don't it? Jesus went to Jerusalem one time and only could heal a few sick because of the unbelief. if one believes the whole Word of God, the answer would have to be all them now wouldn't it?

 

[OzSpen]

The best test is found in 1 John where he says:

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

I have not found one sound Pentecostal who will not say that Jesus came in the flesh.

Somewhere else it says that only someone filled with the Spirit can say that Jesus Christ is Lord. Therefore, if a person who speaks in tongues and is not filled with the Spirit, cannot say that Jesus is Lord. Actually, the Lordship of Christ is one of the prime doctrines of the Pentecostal movement.

So, these are the Scriptural tests, and Pentecostals pass every one.

Oscarr,

I think that it is dangerouse to use this passage from 1 John as "the best test", as a Scriptural test for Pentecostals.

You and I know that there are many brands of Pentecostals. For example, the United Pentecostal Church would agree that Jesus came in the flesh, but it is a denomination that teaches the heretical doctrine of unitarianism - oneness Pentecostals. It does not support the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity.

We need to judge every church by the totality of Scripture.

Would you say that the Pentecostal support of the Toronto "Blessing" was all of God? Are the Pentecostals who follow the teachings of Rodney Howard Browne practising biblical Christianity? What about the alleged laughing revival? Were these manifestations of God?

"Pentecostals, experience & Scripture" is an article that provides some interesting challenges to the Pentecostal movement.

In Christ, Oz

 

[stelow]

You ought to be honest, and come right out and state that you think that Pentecostal tongues are part of the false signs and wonders from Satan, instead of implying it by quoting Scriptures out of context.

Post #81 in this thread.

The so called speaking in unknown(unlearned) tongues(languages), we hear people speaking today, are either self, group, or satanic induced.

 

[stelow]

How many of these signs, listed in the verses, that you just quoted, do you see following them that believe?


Mark 16:17 - 18

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

well that depends on what the believer believes or what doctrine they were raised under now don't it? Jesus went to Jerusalem one time and only could heal a few sick because of the unbelief. if one believes the whole Word of God, the answer would have to be all them now wouldn't it?

Your answer then, is that you've personally seen all the signs listed in the verses you quoted in Mark 16:17 - 18, follow those who believe, right?

 

[OzSpen]

How many of these signs, listed in the verses, that you just quoted, do you see following them that believe?


Mark 16:17 - 18

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

stelow,

These verses (Mark 16:9-20) are not in some of the oldest NT manuscripts that are closest to the times of the apostles.

It is questionable whether they should be in the NT.

In Christ, Oz

 

[NvxiaLee]

Jesus was not referring to Christians using the gifts of the Spirit or expecting miraculous signs and wonders to follow the preaching of the Gospel.

If you knew about the Jewish attitude at the beginning of the First Century AD, you would know that the Jews were looking for miraculous signs in the sky to herald the coming of the Messiah. Because they were too busy looking for those signs, they missed the true Messiah when He appeared. That was what Jesus was referring to.

Throughout the Bible, looking for signs is treated as an evil thing to do. The Jews were evil, so they looked for signs, and Jesus criticized them for it.

"Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." Jesus replied (independent clause), "An evil and adulterous generation demands a sign". This could have been anything. It could have been Jesus pulling a rabbit out of his hat. It's not, as you suppose "those signs", as if it's a specific set of signs.

Luk 23:8 When Herod saw Jesus, he was very glad, for he had long desired to see him, because he had heard about him, and he was hoping to see some sign done by him.

The word translated "sign" is often translated "miracle". Jesus performed many signs, but not those who asked for the sake of seeing something supernatural. There is a difference between God offering a sign and someone wanting to see a sign.

Pentecostals test God by wanting a sign, and then they mock God by acting like clowns.

 

[stelow]

Mark 16:14-18
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 .They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
KJV
this is not the disciples only that these signs would follow but to those that believed what the disciples preached, the signs would follow them

stelow,

These verses (Mark 16:9-20) are not in some of the oldest NT manuscripts that are closest to the times of the apostles.

It is questionable whether they should be in the NT.

In Christ, Oz

I'm not the one who quoted the verses in the first place, it was His_disciple3, if you've been following the thread.

The Gospel according to Mark, is the inspired word of God, and is an important book in the bible...

 

[His_disciple3]

Your answer then, is that you've personally seen all the signs listed in the verses you quoted in Mark 16:17 - 18, follow those who believe, right?

as seen from scriptures in that God says the believers will have these signs to follow them, yes yes yes!! and He is the same Jesus today as He was yesterday, and will be tomorrow, show me where the Bible says that the believers will not have these signs follow them. please!!

 

[His_disciple3]

stelow,

These verses (Mark 16:9-20) are not in some of the oldest NT manuscripts that are closest to the times of the apostles.

It is questionable whether they should be in the NT.

In Christ, Oz

well they have been in the Holy Bible since 1611 that's good enough for me, i found it amusing that when someone don't agree with certain scriptures in the Bible they say well they probably shouldn't have been in there to start with!! well they are so I am believing them as much as scriptures as john 3:16 are scriptures