Speaking In Tounges...

[NvxiaLee]

I completely agree. That's pretty much how I've thought about it. Since it's supposed to be a spiritual gift, how do you suppose there are masses of people in certain churches speaking in tongues? Do you think they are faking it? It's something I've always wondered about.

A lot are faking it. How do you think a Pentecostal preacher would get by if he didn't fake speaking in tongues? If you're in a small group, say five people, attending Wacky Charismatic Church of Christ, and you each take turns praying aloud, the first four speak in tongues, and you're the fifth, what are you going to do? Unless you have courage (or have already spilled the beans that God has ignored you), you're going to fake it. (This is why people like Benny Hinn are successful. When he shoves you, you don't want to look like an idiot by staying standing, so you fall down, like everyone else has done.)

Some people have the ability to make random noises and believe they're speaking in tongues. But, a lot are be faking it.

 

[chris4243]

I received tongues after desiring the gift and asking God for it. Ask and you will receive. Some people take months. Others as soon as they exit the waters of baptism.

You should have asked for the gift of interpreting tongues instead. That gift is sorely lacking and would bring much more glory to God than yet another gibberish-speaker*.

*Sorry, if no one can understand it it is gibberish to them. You can't edify others like that. Perhaps yourself, but God understands English too.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think you answered your own question. I think the Biblical is established when Paul says, after he says that he thanks God he speaks in tongues more than them all, he goes on to say "...yet in the church..." which strongly suggests that his speaking in tongues "more than them all" is happening privately before God, because where else do you think he would be speaking in tongues if he wasn't speaking it in the church?

Paul also says that if a person wants to speak in tongues and there is no interpreter in the church, let him speak to himself and to God. This suggests the private use of tongues before God. Where else would a person speak in tongues to himself and to God but in the private prayer room?

Oscarr,

How would you explain biblically the use of tongues as a private prayer language that does not need interpretation?

This is how I see it: I Cor. 14:2, 4 refers to tongues for personal edification and not requiring interpretation -- therefore it is not for use in the church. This seems to be what Paul is referring to when he says, "I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all" (I Cor. 14:18). In the church, he requires intelligibility: "I desire to speak five words with my mind, that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue" (14:19)

I Cor. 14:14-18 contrasts speaking and singing "with the spirit" (tongues on the basis of v. 14) and praying with the mind. Therefore, throughout I Cor. 12-14, there seems to be an interchange of tongues (spiritual language) as a language spoken to God for personal edification and tongues requiring interpretation for the edification of the church.

That has been my experience as well.

Sincerely in Christ, Oz

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Your senses are mistaken, and your view is the one that's unfounded on scripture. I sense you are trying to complicate something that is simple to understand, if one is being honest and sincere.

Prove to me from scripture that speaking in a unknown(unlearned) tongue(language) is needed today.

Someone being in denial does not mean that my senses are mistaken.

The burden of proof that it isn't needed today is on you. All you have to do is to visit your nearest Christian library and read the hundreds of books written containing proof just by examining the state of the world and the apostacy of the church today that powerful Spirit-led prayer is needed.

Why should I make the effort to prove anything? I already believe in it and use it all the time, and I have seen enough of the work of God in my own life and in the lives of those I minister to that my prayer language activates the power of God to change lives as I pray and intercede for them.

Those demanding proof should make the effort to research it for themselves rather than sitting back and letting others do it for them.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There is no difference between the modern practice of tongues and random noises that you believe to be tongues. What kind of gift is something that is indistinguishable from garbage?

How do you know it is garbage. If a person speaks to God in faith believing that God understands him, then there is no way of proving either way by using natural logic. We know that the things of the Spirit are accessed by faith and not by natural logic.

Let's use your natural logic, by which you are calling the gift of tongues "garbage". How do you know you are a genuine Christian? Your religion might be a lot of garbage! It defies logic to believe in a God you cannot see, and a Jesus who cannot be proved by history, and that believing words in a book actually saves you. How do you know that when you die that there is anything else? How can you prove by logic that the universe is absolutely random and there is no creator, just the big bang theory. Stephen Hawkings uses that kind of logic. He says that our universe is self creating. It doesn't need a God to create and maintain it.

Therefore, according to the most brilliant physicist and logician in the world, your religious faith is just garbage! All we have done to establish that is to use the same logic you have used to describe the gift of tongues!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Paul exposes counterfeit tongues in 1 Corinthians 14. Paul teaches that we should pray with our brain so we can understand what we are saying. The true gift of tongues on the Day of Pentecost, were understandable languages...

That's the interpretation that Herbert W Armstrong uses.

The fact is that in 1 Corinthians, Paul was writing to a dysfunctional church which was getting a whole lot of things wrong. His letter to them therefore was instructions of how to get things right. So when he wrote about the gift of tongues he was giving instruction about how to use it correctly. What was wrong with the Corinthians was that they were praying in tongues during church services as if they were praying privately. A lot of Christians do that. They don't do much praying in private, but do most of their praying in front of others to show them how spiritual they are. This is what Paul was writing about.

His instruction is not that people were speaking in counterfeit tongues. He did not say that at all. He wrote that if people wanted to pray to God in tongues they should speak to themselves and to God. Where else would you do that? In your private prayers at home of course! Paul said that he thanks God that he speaks in tongues more than them all, yet in the church, he would rather prophesy. So where do you think he would be doing all this speaking in tongues? In private before God, because he would not be doing it in church meetings where he would be prophesying instead.

This is so clear that it would take either a knucklehead or a prejudiced person not to see it that way.

In 2 Corinthians Paul is writing to a church that has now got things right. He doesn't have to remind them about the use of tongues and prophecy because he has now received reports that they are speaking in tongues in the right environments, public (with interpretation) and privately before God.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

A lot are faking it. How do you think a Pentecostal preacher would get by if he didn't fake speaking in tongues? If you're in a small group, say five people, attending Wacky Charismatic Church of Christ, and you each take turns praying aloud, the first four speak in tongues, and you're the fifth, what are you going to do? Unless you have courage (or have already spilled the beans that God has ignored you), you're going to fake it. (This is why people like Benny Hinn are successful. When he shoves you, you don't want to look like an idiot by staying standing, so you fall down, like everyone else has done.)

Some people have the ability to make random noises and believe they're speaking in tongues. But, a lot are be faking it.

I guess that you have been to a Pentecostal church once or twice and now you can confidently comment on its theology and practice. I spent 12 years in the Pentecostal movement at quite a number of levels, partly in leadership, and my opinion is quite different. In fact, I can confidently say that you don't know what you are talking about, because if you did, you would quite easily know that those who are faking are totally in the minority, and the majority of Pentecostal Christians love the Lord, have a passion for serving and being used of God. Most of the pastors and leaders I have worked with effectively deal with falsehood and know that those in the "lunatic fringe" are those who need spiritual help in other areas of their lives, the same as those in any church, Pentecostal or Evangelical.

Something else that interests me is that the majority of Pentecostals I know do not criticise other churches, possibly because they believe in this thing called "The fruit of the Spirit", and they don't see "put downs" and "criticism" as being part of the list. It leads me to believe that those who are baptised in the Spirit the Pentecostal way see and experience the fruit of the Spirit in a much stronger way than those of other evangelical churches who seem not to worry about their criticisms not being gentle. kind, or even basically loving. Maybe in their zeal for ignoring 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, they have cut out 1 Corinthians 13 out of their Bibles as well.

So called believers who are unloving, not gentle, and unkind to other believers, even Pentecostal, are not being motivated by The Holy Spirit. Then, I wonder what spirit does motivate them? And are they filled with the Spirit at all, but are filled with some other spirit that allows harsh, unkind, and even hateful criticism of Pentecostal believers?

Bears thinking about.

So the real issue is not whether tongues is genuine or false, but are those who are unloving, unkind, and harshly critical of those who speak in tongues, actually genuine Christians at all. Maybe the critics of tongues are the false ones! Maybe their whole religious foundation is false.

 

[His_disciple3]

I guess that you have been to a Pentecostal church once or twice and now you can confidently comment on its theology and practice. I spent 12 years in the Pentecostal movement at quite a number of levels, partly in leadership, and my opinion is quite different. In fact, I can confidently say that you don't know what you are talking about, because if you did, you would quite easily know that those who are faking are totally in the minority, and the majority of Pentecostal Christians love the Lord, have a passion for serving and being used of God. Most of the pastors and leaders I have worked with effectively deal with falsehood and know that those in the "lunatic fringe" are those who need spiritual help in other areas of their lives, the same as those in any church, Pentecostal or Evangelical.

Something else that interests me is that the majority of Pentecostals I know do not criticise other churches, possibly because they believe in this thing called "The fruit of the Spirit", and they don't see "put downs" and "criticism" as being part of the list. It leads me to believe that those who are baptised in the Spirit the Pentecostal way see and experience the fruit of the Spirit in a much stronger way than those of other evangelical churches who seem not to worry about their criticisms not being gentle. kind, or even basically loving. Maybe in their zeal for ignoring 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, they have cut out 1 Corinthians 13 out of their Bibles as well.

So called believers who are unloving, not gentle, and unkind to other believers, even Pentecostal, are not being motivated by The Holy Spirit. Then, I wonder what spirit does motivate them? And are they filled with the Spirit at all, but are filled with some other spirit that allows harsh, unkind, and even hateful criticism of Pentecostal believers?

Bears thinking about.

So the real issue is not whether tongues is genuine or false, but are those who are unloving, unkind, and harshly critical of those who speak in tongues, actually genuine Christians at all. Maybe the critics of tongues are the false ones! Maybe their whole religious foundation is false.

you Preach it Brother, the gifts of the Spirit show the power or manifestation of God through men/women, even unsaved people were used in this way; " But Lord look what great works we have done in your name, And he said depart from me I never knew you, they weren't saved and did great works then walked away, He never knew them, but by their fruits we shall know them:

.
Matthew 7:16-20
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
KJV

Galatians 5:22-26
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
KJV

 

[stelow]

Oscar, you have defiantly show your true colors, in your last four posts.

As for me, I will have to agree to disagree, and I hope you can see how critical you have been to us, who are not as enlightened, as you think you are.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscar, you have defiantly show your true colors, in your last four posts.

As for me, I will have to agree to disagree, and I hope you can see how critical you have been to us, who are not as enlightened, as you think you are.

All I am doing is defending the practice of the gift of tongues against those who are accusing Pentecostals of being false, deluded, even Satanic, as one person has stated.

I don't think that it is wrong to remind people that there are fruit of the Spirit. Note that Jesus spoke fairly sharply to those religious folks who accused Him of casting out demons through the power of Satan. He came very close to saying that they were committing the unforgiveable sin by blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

So, in the minds of Pentecostals, those who ridicule the Spirit gifts, especially tongues, are in fact ridiculing the Holy Spirit, and those who are saying that tongues are of the devil are actually blaspheming the Holy Spirit. So any Pentecostal believer who comes on a forum like this and defending the Pentecostal use of tongues is attempting to stop uninformed people committing the unforgiveable sin by blaspheming and ridiculing the Holy Spirit.

Read what happened to Ananias and Sappira. All they did was to incorrectly report how much they sold a bit of land for, and they were exposed as lying to the Holy Spirit and they paid with their lives right there and then!

How much more do people who go further than that and ridicule the Holy Spirit by saying that those who practice one of His spiritual tools are false or even Satanic, are putting themselves in danger of grieving the Holy Spirit and receiving the consequences?

 

[stelow]

Someone I respect as a Baptist, man of God, Charles Stanley on this very subject.

YouTube - ‪Part 3 of 5 - Charles Stanley - The Gifts of The Spirit‬‏

 

[chris4243]

How much more do people who go further than that and ridicule the Holy Spirit by saying that those who practice one of His spiritual tools are false or even Satanic, are putting themselves in danger of grieving the Holy Spirit and receiving the consequences?

I'm not saying everyone who's speaking in tongues got that from Satan. Just most of them. As I said before, there is a simple test to tell the difference.

 

[thegospelisgoodnews]

Good morning Bella,

Yes, I agree that it is quite clearly explained by Paul as a spiritual gift and I believe the Scriptures teach that the spiritual gifts endowed through the Holy Spirit are not the same for each one of the born again believers. Some are gifted as teachers and can teach sound doctrine and quite frankly I'd much rather have that gift than the gift of tongues. If one can teach sound doctrine, then one must know sound doctrine. Some are gifted to be pastors or leaders of a flock of the born again believers. That is a huge responsibility and there are further requirements for those who have this gift. Some are gifted with a spirit of encouragement and I find that these born again believers are so needed among the body, especially in these days of apostasy and evolutionary instruction. We need to be encouraged that we are not alone in this journey of faith to everlasting life. Then there is the gift of tongues and I must say that I have visited fellowships where this gift is expected of everyone and I don't find that to be ini keeping with the teaching of the Scriptures. Further, the Scriptures seem to indicate that it should be manifest in an orderly manner of one speaking the tongue and another to translate. I don't find this practiced in those fellowships that I have witnessed.

Generally speaking, there seems to be a call to speak in tongues and then shortly there is just a cacophony of babbling and guttural sounds that everyone makes and if you visit repeatedly it seems, to me, that most are practiced and the same sounds repeated week after week. Never have I heard anyone speak in a tongue alone and someone else explain, "This is what the Spirit says through this person..."

However, having said all that I don't renounce tongues, but think that some fellowships have not understood the reality of the Scriptures teaching and have, just like some fellowships preach salvation by works, have made it an integral part of everyone's sign of salvation. I don't find that to be what is taught in the Scriptures.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

For someone who has not had a very good experience with those professing to be speaking in tongues, you still seem to have the notion, that the bible teaches that this gift is real. I'm actually in agreement with both of you on most points, that being, not everyone receives the gift of tongues, which is a big factor why there appears to be so many poor souls who want something so bad, that (in some sects it means salvation) that I think their imaginations invent what they think is tongues, and its just sad to say the least. As for corporate babbling its completely against biblical teaching in so many ways its not even worth going into, Its WRONG! As for the gift of tongues being only understandable languages of other nationalities, I would have to say the bible is clear this was the case at pentecost, but so were tongues of fire that seemed to sit upon their heads, As this phenominon was only the case that day. Although we can see later in 1 Corinthians 12 these tongues have other purposes, not for solely telling foriegners the wonders of God, but for personal edification for the one speaking tongues, and for the church when the tongue is interpreted, I have to tell you that I had no idea what it was like for someone to receive an interpretation until I experienced this first hand, someone spoke out in a tongue and as they were speaking I knew exactly what they were saying (one of the strangest things I've ever experienced) I was fairly new to the gifts and was to timid to speak out, but the greater amazement was someone eles stood up and proclaimed exactly what I had heard. I don't know how this happened, and I haven't experienced it since, but I believe it was God showing me what a real tongue and interpretation was like. I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and I believe they are the Power as described in Acts 1:8 and also the lack of power as described in 2 Timothy 3:5........The sad reality of truth is this, so many wolves and false teaching and doctrine has infiltrated the church, that saints are willing to throw the baby out with the bath water, abuse and misuse are blatantly going on, and are driving many Christians to a place of powerless Christianity where it is just a dry form of godliness, that is void of the revelation that Peter gave to the crowd concerning the outpouring of the Holy Spirit spoken of by the prophet Joel.......one only has to ask "are we closer to the "LAST DAYS" now or back then when Peter spoke what was going on.

 

[OzSpen]

I completely agree. That's pretty much how I've thought about it. Since it's supposed to be a spiritual gift, how do you suppose there are masses of people in certain churches speaking in tongues? Do you think they are faking it? It's something I've always wondered about.

New Believer,

If there are masses of people in a church gathering who are speaking in tongues publicly and there is no interpretation, the Christians are being disobedient to what the Scriptures teach in 1 Cor. 14.

As for "faking it", I cannot make that judgement just because they are speaking with tongues without interpretation. There can be people "faking" their Christianity in any church.

If I were in such a church and heard the mass speaking in tongues without interpretation, I would make an appointment with a pastor or church leader to explain the biblical perspective and the disobedience that these people are demonstrating.

However, I consider that there can be a "follow the leader" in these kinds of meetings. You may call it faking it, but it could be a replication of what the leader is doing.

In Christ, Oz

 

[stelow]

Spiritual immaturity leads one to be fascinated with the miraculous at the expense of his brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. Paul was trying to teach against this very behavior to the Corinthians.

 

[OzSpen]

Spiritual immaturity leads one to be fascinated with the miraculous at the expense of his brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. Paul was trying to teach against this very behavior to the Corinthians.

Where in 1 Corinthians 12-14 does it say that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are for the spiritually immature?

Oz

 

[stelow]

Where in 1 Corinthians 12-14 does it say that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are for the spiritually immature?

Oz

Do what, you have twisted what I said, to something I didn't say.

 

[OzSpen]

Do what, you have twisted what I said, to something I didn't say.

Stelow,

Please accept my apologies if I have misinterpreted what you said. But didn't you say?

Spiritual immaturity leads one to be fascinated with the miraculous at the expense of his brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.

I need some clarification from you, then. Are you saying that the spiritually immature are fascinated with the miraculous gifts of the Spirit?

Sincerely, Oz

 

[stelow]

Stelow,

Please accept my apologies if I have misinterpreted what you said. But didn't you say?

I need some clarification from you, then. Are you saying that the spiritually immature are fascinated with the miraculous gifts of the Spirit?

Sincerely, Oz

Yes, especially when it's at the expense of others. We are to edify each other, love being the primary motivator for the use of spiritual gifts.

 

[NvxiaLee]

Spiritual immaturity leads one to be fascinated with the miraculous at the expense of his brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. Paul was trying to teach against this very behavior to the Corinthians.

Yes, it appears like the Corinthians were busy holding a circus so Paul had to step in and tell them a thing-or-two about order and the uselessness of languages that can't be understood.

Jesus wasn't so gentile. "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign..."