Speaking in tongues

[1stcenturylady]

My bed calleth me.

Mine too.

 

[swordsman1]

Not true.
I Corinthians 12:30 is the bottom of a larger list. And it has a context. Let's read:
Notice it says "are all prophets?" Does this mean that not all can prophesy?
Look at 1 Cor 14:31 Obviously, the list given at the end of chapter 12 was precisely what the Lord said: These were "some set in the church."
This list is obviously a list of offices, with spiritual gifts specially for those offices. Not all are apostles. But all are "sent ones'. Not all are teachers. But all do teach at some point or other. Not all speak with tongues... but "I would that ye all spake with tongues!" And "not all prophesy", yet, even though Paul (or rather the Holy Ghost, who inspired the Word!) woudl that all spoke in tongues, yet he would rather that we all prophesy! And we are to covet earnestly the best gifts... which most non-Pentecostals claim is prophecy... yet, not all can prophesy, according to their teachings concerning that list in chapter 12.

Which is it? Can all prophesy? Then all can speak in tongues.
And it is the will not only of Paul, but of the HOLY GHOST, that all speak with tongues!

The people who all prophesy in turn are the prophets. Not everyone in the whole church!

Are all apostles? No, there were only 13 or so of them.
Are all prophets? No,
Are all teachers? No, not everyone can teach.
Do all work miracles? No. not everyone performed miracles.
Do all have gifts of healing? No.
Do all speak in tongues? No.
Do all interpret? No.

If you want the answer to be "yes" for 1 or 2 of them, then it has to be yes for all of them. You can't just pick and choose.
Not only are we all apostles like Paul, but we all work miracles, we all have the gift of healing, we are all teachers. Plus all the other gifts - we all have the gift of evangelism, we are all administrators, we are all pastors, we are all leaders, etc. Can you see how ridiculous it is getting?

But if there is still any doubt:

Rom 12:4-6 “For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith;”

1 Cor 12:8-10 “To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.”

1 Cor 12: 17-20 “If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.”​

Can we all be eyes?

Yes? No problem. When we pray in tongues, it's our spirit praying, without the brain running interference.
I do not claim that when I speak in tongues, that it's GOD doing the praying.

The point I was making is that praying in the spirit in 1 Cor 14:15 is not the praying in the Spirit in Eph 6:18 and Jude 20.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The people who all prophesy in turn are the prophets. Not everyone in the whole church!

Are all apostles? No, there were only 13 or so of them.
Are all prophets? No,
Are all teachers? No, not everyone can teach.
Do all work miracles? No. not everyone performed miracles.
Do all have gifts of healing? No.
Do all speak in tongues? No.
Do all interpret? No.

If you want the answer to be "yes" for 1 or 2 of them, then it has to be yes for all of them. You can't just pick and choose.
Not only are we all apostles like Paul, but we all work miracles, we all have the gift of healing, we are all teachers. Plus all the other gifts - we all have the gift of evangelism, we are all administrators, we are all pastors, we are all leaders, etc. Can you see how ridiculous it is getting?

But if there is still any doubt:

Rom 12:4-6 “For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith;”

1 Cor 12:8-10 “To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.”

1 Cor 12: 17-20 “If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.”​

Can we all be eyes?




The point I was making is that praying in the spirit in 1 Cor 14:15 is not the praying in the Spirit in Eph 6:18 and Jude 20.

Right, not everyone in the church is an apostle, or prophet, has the gift of tongues, or interpretation of tongues. These people are called to these "offices." But, that is the gifts that are for the profit of all. However, the SIGN of tongues is FOR ALL WHO BELIEVE. It is a personal prayer language for the purpose of praying God's perfect will. It is TO God, thus no interpretation is necessary; whereas the gift of diverse kinds of tongues are messages FROM God, and MUST be interpreted for the benefit of the church. Those messages are listed in 1 Corinthians 14:6

Mark 16:17-18 - SIGN of tongues - for prayer and praise TO God alone. Perfect prayer, perfect praise.

1 Cor. 12 - GIFT of tongues - for receiving messages FROM God - for the congregation, and MUST be interpreted for the profit of all.

 

[PollyJetix]

The people who all prophesy in turn are the prophets. Not everyone in the whole church!

Wow. I have never heard such a restrictive interpretation. That would mean "all" doesn't mean "all", after all....

It would mean that the surrounding verses should also have the same meaning, when using the word "all".
Let's see how this works...

1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
1Co 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

No... I don't think it works very well.
...

The point I was making is that praying in the spirit in 1 Cor 14:15 is not the praying in the Spirit in Eph 6:18 and Jude 20.

And how do you know that?
To pray in the Spirit on all occasions does not mean that I must eliminate praying with the understanding on those occasions.
After all, we are commanded to pray BOTH in the spirit, and with the understanding!
Thus, on all occasions when I pray, I pray two ways: with the spirit, and with the understanding. And these are defined by Scripture as two very different ways to pray. I can switch from one to the other, on the same occasion of prayer.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Wow. I have never heard such a restrictive interpretation. That would mean "all" doesn't mean "all", after all....

It would mean that the surrounding verses should also have the same meaning, when using the word "all".
Let's see how this works...
No... I don't think it works very well.
...

And how do you know that?
To pray in the Spirit on all occasions does not mean that I must eliminate praying with the understanding on those occasions.
After all, we are commanded to pray BOTH in the spirit, and with the understanding!
Thus, on all occasions when I pray, I pray two ways: with the spirit, and with the understanding. And these are defined by Scripture as two very different ways to pray. I can switch from one to the other, on the same occasion of prayer.

Yes, we pray with the understanding, but that is not what Paul meant in 1 Cor. 14. The "understanding" there is "interpretation of tongues." The whole chapter is a comparison of with and without interpretation/prophecy. Between the sign and gift of tongues

 

[PollyJetix]

Yes, we pray with the understanding, but that is not what Paul meant in 1 Cor. 14. The "understanding" there is "interpretation of tongues." The whole chapter is a comparison of with and without interpretation/prophecy. Between the sign and gift of tongues

I know we disagree on this point. That's okay. I'm not going to argue over that.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I know we disagree on this point. That's okay. I'm not going to argue over that.

It's just the context. But, yes, in other places in scripture we DO pray in our own language that we understand.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This thread now reminds me of the Wye Wye bird which flies in ever diminishing circles until it disappears up its own butt.

 

[swordsman1]

Right, not everyone in the church is an apostle, or prophet, has the gift of tongues, or interpretation of tongues. These people are called to these "offices." But, that is the gifts that are for the profit of all. However, the SIGN of tongues is FOR ALL WHO BELIEVE. It is a personal prayer language for the purpose of praying God's perfect will. It is TO God, thus no interpretation is necessary; whereas the gift of diverse kinds of tongues are messages FROM God, and MUST be interpreted for the benefit of the church. Those messages are listed in 1 Corinthians 14:6

Mark 16:17-18 - SIGN of tongues - for prayer and praise TO God alone. Perfect prayer, perfect praise.

1 Cor. 12 - GIFT of tongues - for receiving messages FROM God - for the congregation, and MUST be interpreted for the profit of all.

Mark 16:17-18 says nothing about the content of tongues. But those tongues and the other sign gifts listed in that passage (healing the sick, driving out demons etc) were to be performed IN PUBLIC, as confirming signs to others. v20 "Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it."

What we can tell from that passage is those things were only for the apostolic age. Do people pick up poisonous snakes and drink deadly poison without being harmed today? Paul was bitten by poisonous snakes without harm (Acts 28:3), but when Christians have tried it in more recently times (as the Appalachian Pentecostals were famous for) they invariably died.

 

[swordsman1]

Wow. I have never heard such a restrictive interpretation. That would mean "all" doesn't mean "all", after all....

It would mean that the surrounding verses should also have the same meaning, when using the word "all".
Let's see how this works...

"All" is all those in the church who have the gift of prophecy. We know that it was only applying to the prophets from the previous 2 verses "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent." All the prophets can speak one by one, but no more than three per service. It cannot be "all" the congregation because not everyone has the gift of prophecy (or any other gift) as I have shown.

To pray in the Spirit on all occasions does not mean that I must eliminate praying with the understanding on those occasions.
After all, we are commanded to pray BOTH in the spirit, and with the understanding!
Thus, on all occasions when I pray, I pray two ways: with the spirit, and with the understanding. And these are defined by Scripture as two very different ways to pray. I can switch from one to the other, on the same occasion of prayer.

You seem to be getting very confused about praying "in the spirit" and "in the Spirit". The spirit in 1 Cor 14:15 is the human spirit. v14 "my spirit prays". Not the Holy Spirit.

Praying in the Spirit in Eph 6:18 is praying in the Holy Spirit (in the Spirits leading, same as we walk in the Spirit and worship in the Spirit). It cannot be praying in tongues in this verse because we need to know the words to be able to make specific requests in prayer. And we are to pray in the Spirit on all occasions - every time we pray we are to do so in the Spirits leading, not speak in tongues every time we pray.

 

[PollyJetix]

...You seem to be getting very confused about praying "in the spirit" and "in the Spirit". The spirit in 1 Cor 14:15 is the human spirit. v14 "my spirit prays". Not the Holy Spirit.

Praying in the Spirit in Eph 6:18 is praying in the Holy Spirit (in the Spirits leading, same as we walk in the Spirit and worship in the Spirit). It cannot be praying in tongues in this verse because we need to know the words to be able to make specific requests in prayer. And we are to pray in the Spirit on all occasions - every time we pray we are to do so in the Spirits leading, not speak in tongues every time we pray.

I'm not going to do the Wye Wye bird thing with you, swordsman...
but I will reply this once more to you.

The way we access the Holy Spirit, is by praying with our spirit. Where else do you think He dwells?
1 Corinthians 6:17 "But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit."

I am sure you will protest this idea. I did.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Mark 16:17-18 says nothing about the content of tongues. But those tongues and the other sign gifts listed in that passage (healing the sick, driving out demons etc) were to be performed IN PUBLIC, as confirming signs to others. v20 "Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it."

What we can tell from that passage is those things were only for the apostolic age. Do people pick up poisonous snakes and drink deadly poison without being harmed today? Paul was bitten by poisonous snakes without harm (Acts 28:3), but when Christians have tried it in more recently times (as the Appalachian Pentecostals were famous for) they invariably died.

Are you so blind as to think that "these signs will follow those who believe" are JUST THE APOSTLES! Are you not a BELIEVER???

Then every Corinthian was an APOSTLE!

I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, 5 that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom you were fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

These gifts are still going strong, FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE until we see Christ FACE TO FACE. But not, it seems, for the lukewarm church of the Laodecians who don't believe they are in need of anything.

 

[swordsman1]

Are you so blind as to think that "these signs will follow those who believe" are JUST THE APOSTLES! Are you not a BELIEVER???

Then every Corinthian was an APOSTLE!

That's not what I said. Read my post again. I made no mention of apostles. I said those signs listed in Mark 16:17-18 were for believers in the apostolic age to confirm the gospel message they brought (v20). Do believers today survive being bitten by deadly snakes or drinking poison? Today we no longer need such confirming signs as we have the completed New Testament which contains an infallible record of all the signs necessary to confirm the gospels authenticity.

John 20:31 "Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God"​

These gifts are still going strong, FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE until we see Christ FACE TO FACE. But not, it seems, for the lukewarm church of the Laodecians who don't believe they are in need of anything.

1 Cor 13:12 is not referring to seeing Christ 'face to face'. There is no mention of Christ or his coming is that passage. Face to face to referring to the analogy of a mirror. When 'completeness' comes, when we have Gods complete revelation to man, it is like seeing face to face as opposed to seeing dimly in a mirror (mirrors were very poor in those days).

 

[1stcenturylady]

That's not what I said. Read my post again. I made no mention of apostles. I said those signs listed in Mark 16:17-18 were for believers in the apostolic age to confirm the gospel message they brought (v20). Do believers today survive being bitten by deadly snakes or drinking poison? Today we no longer need such confirming signs as we have the completed New Testament which contains an infallible record of all the signs necessary to confirm the gospels authenticity.

John 20:31 "Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God"​

1 Cor 13:12 is not referring to seeing Christ 'face to face'. There is no mention of Christ or his coming is that passage. Face to face to referring to the analogy of a mirror. When 'completeness' comes, when we have Gods complete revelation to man, it is like seeing face to face as opposed to seeing dimly in a mirror (mirrors were very poor in those days).

So, now that we have the Bible, we can ignore what it says? That is convenient for you...seeing as you don't believe it.

 

[PollyJetix]

Is contemplating the Wye Wye bird...

 

[PollyJetix]

...

Swordsman... it's obvious you will not convince us.
And it's obvious we will never convince you.
One or more of us is willfully ignorant.

Now, since you think it's us, why do you continue to try to argue with us?
It's a waste of your time.
And it violates the Scriptures.

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Titus 3:9-10 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;

 

[1stcenturylady]

Swordsman... it's obvious you will not convince us.
And it's obvious we will never convince you.
One or more of us is willfully ignorant.

Now, since you think it's us, why do you continue to try to argue with us?
It's a waste of your time.
And it violates the Scriptures.

So who is more ignorant - a believer, or an unbeliever?

 

[PollyJetix]

So who is more ignorant - a believer, or an unbeliever?

There is no one more ignorant than one who thinks he believes, but who remains in denial of the power of God, TODAY.

2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

 

[1stcenturylady]

There is no one more ignorant than one who thinks he believes, but who remains in denial of the power of God, TODAY.

We have an idiom based on Jeremiah 5. It says "There is no one so blind, as he who will not see."

It is willful blindness, due to a closed heart.

 

[swordsman1]

Swordsman... it's obvious you will not convince us.
And it's obvious we will never convince you.
One or more of us is willfully ignorant.

Now, since you think it's us, why do you continue to try to argue with us?
It's a waste of your time.
And it violates the Scriptures.

Because charismatic/Pentecostal theology is erroneous, and I am "contending for the faith that was once for all delivered to saints". This board is for debating specific denominational doctrines and anyone is free to challenge or defend them. If you don't want your doctrines challenged there is a charimatic/pentecostal only board where I am not allowed to post.