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PollyJetix

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No, I believe He was preparing them for the Day of Pentecost. That was quite a day, and when Peter preached, He spoke with boldness, and finally knew what he was preaching. No more weak Peter, denying Jesus.
Of course. He was preparing them for the Day of Pentecost. He was commanding them to receive. But the Holy Ghost was not yet given, because Christ was not yet ascended. John 7:39
The Holy Ghost came after Christ ascended.
The breathing upon could not have imparted the Holy Ghost to them.
It was only a command, and a foreshadowing of the wind that filled the house, when it happened.
 
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PollyJetix

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So, again, do you also believe you must speak in tongues to be saved? That should be a yes or no question.
No. Because when a person is born again, he receives the Spirit of Christ.
Christ was purely a spirit in ages past. And He retains that same individual spirit-person, within the godhead.
When Christ is received, it is Christ, not the Holy Ghost.
Receiving the Holy Ghost is another experience, as I have been trying to show you, in Romans 8:9-11.
 
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1stcenturylady

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When the Holy Ghost has filled a person, He stays there. He is a constantly comforter and guide.
However, He still falls upon these same people, who are baptized in the Spirit, over and over. Each subsequent experience of being overwhelmed by the Holy Ghost is not necessarily "receiving" the Holy Ghost. It's just another visitation from Heaven. I have experienced such visitations many times.

Me too. I agree. But we need to be careful not to add our explanations to the Word, to try to create teachings that aren't really in there.

Yes, we receive ONE Holy Spirit, however, He doesn't give us ALL HIS POWER. Each new filling is new to us, not new to Him. Paul said to seek the better gifts. The Holy Spirit already has those gifts, but will bestow them at His pleasure. One way I have found to receive higher gifts is to go back to the beginning. Acts 2:38 - Repentance. "Examine me, O Lord, and prove me; Try my mind and my heart."
 
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PollyJetix

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Yes, we receive ONE Holy Spirit, however, He doesn't give us ALL HIS POWER. Each new filling is new to us, not new to Him. Paul said to seek the better gifts. The Holy Spirit already has those gifts, but will bestow them at His pleasure. One way I have found to receive higher gifts is to go back to the beginning. Acts 2:38 - Repentance. "Examine me, O Lord, and prove me; Try my mind and my heart."
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Notice that the words "unto him" were added by man.
God does not give the Spirit by measure.
It's not God who limits us.
He WANTS all of His children to be working the works that Christ did! --and even greater works!
But THIS is the work of God--to BELIEVE.

It's our faith that limits God's power.
It's not God that limits us.

I see each new visitation of the Holy Ghost, as a "stretching" of the inner person, to be able to let more Holy Ghost flow through me.

Look at these verses too:
Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion...

Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us...
 
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1stcenturylady

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Yes, the entire Trinity was present at Christ's resurrection. Just as as his baptism.
HOWEVER. The Son does nothing unless the Father tells Him to.
And the Holy Spirit does the same.
The Father raised up Jesus by the Holy Ghost.

Now, back to where this started from:
If CHRIST be in you, the body is dead because of sin,
BUT the spirit is alive, because of righteousness.

THIS is the condition of one who is living in Romans 7. Paul cried out in torment! Who shall deliver me from this body of death??
I know, you have read this passage the same way all your life... but let yourself see it through new glasses.

Paul did not author the chapter divisions. They did not exist in the original epistle. Look at Romans 7 and 8 as all one passage. That's how it was written.
Neither was there any verse divisions. Nor punctuation. Those were added in the 1300's by MAN.

Just let this passage speak to you:
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Whose Spirit was it that raised up Jesus from the dead? You yourself said this verse means the Father raised Jesus from the dead, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
(There is no need to argue over this!)

What these verses are saying, is that when we are born again, we receive Christ into our spirits.
But that's not enough to live triumphantly over sinful flesh.
The flesh is still dead, because of sin.
Read the verse. See how it says that?

And the next verse starts talking about But. There's a HOWEVER, here!

Replace the word "But" with the word "however." It means the same thing.
This is talking about the flesh--the mortal body. The flesh that is dead, which we still wrestle with.

HOWEVER, if the Spirit dwells in you, He will quicken your mortal bodies. Not your immortal bodies. These mortal ones, which feel the pull of sin.

and THEREFORE--(since this is true)--
Therefore, brethren, we owe it to God, to live after the Spirit, instead of after the flesh!

Actually, I understand very little from the way I was raised. LOL I was raised a cessationist! And a legalist. Almost a Judaizer. LOL

It doesn't matter if there are chapter or verse breaks, the context of Romans 7 is the Old Covenant Law, as is most of the previous chapters as well. Many pastors believe as you do, and if it helps you fine. Just don't do as they do and justify their lack of power over sin by using Romans 7 and 1 John 1:8 and 10 as if they are to Christians. If you don't use them as a false excuse, then interpret it as you always have. But, if I were you, I would read it in context.

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Sin’s Advantage in the Law

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
 
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PollyJetix

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Actually, I understand very little from the way I was raised. LOL I was raised a cessationist! And a legalist. Almost a Judaizer. LOL

It doesn't matter if there are chapter or verse breaks, the context of Romans 7 is the Old Covenant Law, as is most of the previous chapters as well. Many pastors believe as you do, and if it helps you fine. Just don't do as they do and justify their lack of power over sin by using Romans 7 and 1 John 1:8 and 10 as if they are to Christians. If you don't use them as a false excuse, then interpret it as you always have. But, if I were you, I would read it in context.

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Sin’s Advantage in the Law

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Did you think I had not read chapter 7?
 
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1stcenturylady

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Notice that the words "unto him" were added by man.
God does not give the Spirit by measure.
It's not God who limits us.
He WANTS all of His children to be working the works that Christ did! --and even greater works!
But THIS is the work of God--to BELIEVE.

It's our faith that limits God's power.
It's not God that limits us.

I see each new visitation of the Holy Ghost, as a "stretching" of the inner person, to be able to let more Holy Ghost flow through me.

Look at these verses too:

Oh, so if you had enough faith you would know everything the Holy Spirit knows? You would be as powerful as He is? No, it is up to the Holy Spirit to spread the gifts around. Not everyone is an apostle, a prophet, a teacher, a worker of miracles, is a healer, speaks in diverse kinds of tongues, or is the interpreter of tongues.

God is in Control. Put your trust in HIM, not your faith.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Did you think I had not read chapter 7?

No, not in context. Otherwise you would have read that it was not talking about Christians, but about those who were still under the law.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Of course. He was preparing them for the Day of Pentecost. He was commanding them to receive. But the Holy Ghost was not yet given, because Christ was not yet ascended. John 7:39
The Holy Ghost came after Christ ascended.
The breathing upon could not have imparted the Holy Ghost to them.
It was only a command, and a foreshadowing of the wind that filled the house, when it happened.

So Jesus blew in their faces and said "Receive the Holy Spirit" and nothing happened? He was right there! Right, He hadn't ascended yet, so He could do it HIMSELF! Who do you think the Gift of the Holy Spirit is from? He is from Jesus!
 
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PollyJetix

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So Jesus blew in their faces and said "Receive the Holy Spirit" and nothing happened? He was right there! Right, He hadn't ascended yet, so He could do it HIMSELF! Who do you think the Gift of the Holy Spirit is from? He is from Jesus!
John 7:39
John 14:16-17
John 14:26
 
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PollyJetix

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No, not in context. Otherwise you would have read that it was not talking about Christians, but about those who were still under the law.
Sigh. I assure you, I have. Many times.
I don't think you are really listening to what I am saying.
 
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1stcenturylady

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John 7:39
John 14:16-17
John 14:26

Answer me this. Look at these verses in light of His resurrection. Context! Context! Context!

Is John 7 before or after Jesus rose from the dead?
Is John 20 before or after Jesus rose from the dead?
 
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1stcenturylady

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1stcenturylady

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Ha! That makes two of us. :blush:

Polly, when I study, I read a whole book at a time - very slowly, taking in context. I can't see you are doing that, especially your proof text of John 7 to disprove John 20.
 
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PollyJetix

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Polly, when I study, I read a whole book at a time - very slowly, taking in context. I can't see you are doing that, especially your proof text of John 7 to disprove John 20.
I am not trying to disprove John 20. I am using other Scriptures, which you have not, to disprove YOUR personal explanation of John 20.
I dont' like this argument.
 
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1stcenturylady

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I am not trying to disprove John 20. I am using other Scriptures, which you have not, to disprove YOUR personal explanation of John 20.
I dont' like this argument.

Then skip it. I was just trying to show you that timing is everything. John 7 was before the crucifixion even, let alone the resurrection. John 20 was after.
 
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