Speaking in tongues

[PollyJetix]

Because charismatic/Pentecostal theology is erroneous, and I am "contending for the faith that was once for all delivered to saints". This board is for debating specific denominational doctrines and anyone is free to challenge or defend them. If you don't want your doctrines challenged there is a charimatic/pentecostal only board where I am not allowed to post.

No, you are not contending for the faith that was once delivered to the saints.
What you are contending for, is what you think that faith is supposed to be today, as DIFFERENT from that which existed in the days of the Apostles.

 

[1stcenturylady]

No, you are not contending for the faith that was once delivered to the saints.
What you are contending for, is what you think that faith is supposed to be today, as DIFFERENT from that which existed in the days of the Apostles.

Right! It was not suppose to be turned into swiss cheese with holes.

Mark 16New King James Version (NKJV)


The Great Commission
14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

This was not just to the apostles! If it was, then no one who got saved would have received the signs, if they were only for the apostles.

I remember one cessationist teacher claim, "If I don't have the gifts of the Spirit, then they don't exist."

 

[PollyJetix]

You see, swordsman, your entire argument rests on your idea that everyone automatically receives the Holy Ghost at the moment of conversion.
But I can prove to you from the Bible that is not so.
Just because you are born again, doesn't prove you have the Holy Ghost.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You see, swordsman, your entire argument rests on your idea that everyone automatically receives the Holy Ghost at the moment of conversion.
But I can prove to you from the Bible that is not so.
Just because you are born again, doesn't prove you have the Holy Ghost.

The Wye Wye bird is now extinct. The last one disappeared up its own butt last night! These cessationists are like little children playing in their sand box. They say that their sand box is the only genuine one. I think they should be given a quicksand box, so then they would become extinct also! Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

 

[PollyJetix]

The Wye Wye bird is now extinct. The last one disappeared up its own butt last night! These cessationists are like little children playing in their sand box. They say that their sand box is the only genuine one. I think they should be given a quicksand box, so then they would become extinct also! Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

I absolutely love your Wye Wye bird. I shall cherish it always.

 

[1stcenturylady]

You see, swordsman, your entire argument rests on your idea that everyone automatically receives the Holy Ghost at the moment of conversion.
But I can prove to you from the Bible that is not so.
Just because you are born again, doesn't prove you have the Holy Ghost.

There are two baptisms. One as depicted in Acts 2, and the more powerful one in Acts 4. Note they are the same people! I think you are referring to the more powerful one, because if someone does not have the Holy Spirit, they do not even belong to Christ, so how can we assume they are born again. Being born again is receiving the Holy Spirit and becoming new creatures in Christ. We are dead to sin.

What I see in the Church is deadness. Many do not have the Holy Spirit at all, or else they would understand passages and not call them foolishness or obsolete, that are easy for someone with the Spirit to understand. They will have to go through the Great Tribulation.

 

[PollyJetix]

There are two baptisms. One as depicted in Acts 2, and the more powerful one in Acts 4. Note they are the same people! I think you are referring to the more powerful one, because if someone does not have the Holy Spirit, they do not even belong to Christ, so how can we assume they are born again. Being born again is receiving the Holy Spirit and becoming new creatures in Christ. We are dead to sin.

What I see in the Church is deadness. Many do not have the Holy Spirit at all, or else they would understand passages and not call them foolishness or obsolete, that are easy for someone with the Spirit to understand. They will have to go through the Great Tribulation.

What I am referring to is Acts 8.
Those who were converted through the preaching of Phillip were truly born again, were they not?
After all, it says they believed, and were baptized, on the basis of their faith.

Yet, it says they had not yet received the Holy Ghost.
They were born again... or else their baptism was not valid.
Yet, we see no evidence of them being rebaptized.
Their baptism was valid.
Therefore, their spiritual state was already regenerated.

Yet, they had not received the Holy Ghost.

Now, of course, people usually start saying , "Oh! but that was BECAUSE...."
But I am not talking about the BECAUSE.
I am talking about the HOW.

If everyone automatically receives the Holy Ghost at the moment of New Birth...
(As we have been taught, that it is impossible to be born again, without receiving the Holy Ghost...)
HOW did this happen?

The answer is simple.

When we are born again, we are born again by the POWER of the Holy Ghost.
In fact, the disciples, before they were born again, had the Holy Ghost WITH them, but not yet IN them.
And this is the state of one who is newly born again.
Born again by the power of the Holy Ghost, but not yet indwelt by the Holy Ghost.

And we see this borne out throughout the Scriptures.
The Father gives the Holy Ghost to those who are already His children. Luke 11:13
The disciples were born again, as we all are, when they believed on the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
And then, they received the Holy Ghost.
In Acts 19, Paul took those who had not known about the Holy Ghost, into faith, then into baptism, and THEN the Holy Ghost fell upon them.

Now...Next question...

HOW did the apostles know the new believers in Samaria had not yet received the Holy Ghost?
After all, they had believed, and they had been baptized!
This isn't a trick question. It's right there in the Word, plain as day.

 

[1stcenturylady]

What I am referring to is Acts 8.
Those who were converted through the preaching of Phillip were truly born again, were they not?
After all, it says they believed, and were baptized, on the basis of their faith.

Yet, it says they had not yet received the Holy Ghost.
They were born again... or else their baptism was not valid.
Yet, we see no evidence of them being rebaptized.
Their baptism was valid.
Therefore, their spiritual state was already regenerated.

Yet, they had not received the Holy Ghost.

Now, of course, people usually start saying , "Oh! but that was BECAUSE...."
But I am not talking about the BECAUSE.
I am talking about the HOW.

If everyone automatically receives the Holy Ghost at the moment of New Birth...
(As we have been taught, that it is impossible to be born again, without receiving the Holy Ghost...)
HOW did this happen?

The answer is simple.

When we are born again, we are born again by the POWER of the Holy Ghost.
In fact, the disciples, before they were born again, had the Holy Ghost WITH them, but not yet IN them.
And this is the state of one who is newly born again.
Born again by the power of the Holy Ghost, but not yet indwelt by the Holy Ghost.

And we see this borne out throughout the Scriptures.
The Father gives the Holy Ghost to those who are already His children. Luke 11:13
The disciples were born again, as we all are, when they believed on the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
And then, they received the Holy Ghost.
In Acts 19, Paul took those who had not known about the Holy Ghost, into faith, then into baptism, and THEN the Holy Ghost fell upon them.

Now...Next question...

HOW did the apostles know the new believers in Samaria had not yet received the Holy Ghost?
After all, they had believed, and they had been baptized!
This isn't a trick question. It's right there in the Word, plain as day.

There are some conundrums for sure in Acts 8. I believe the point is you can't just be baptized, you must have the Holy Spirit to be born again and saved. How many Christians do you know that are baptized, but are dead spiritually? Even the demons believe and tremble, so even believing isn't enough. There must be evidence, and that evidence is being dead to sin. Another argument could arise but I don't think is valid, is must an apostle lay hands on everyone that receives the Holy Spirit? Of course not. I can't answer your question on how the apostles knew about the Samaritans. I doesn't say.

As for Luke 11:13, that is teaching about a future happening - for us, seeing as at that point the Holy Spirit had only been given to John the Baptist and to Jesus, and Jesus blew on the remaining apostles after His resurrection. But that was all. It is the reason Jesus couldn't stay on earth after His resurrection. He had to leave so He could send the Holy Spirit and officially start His Church.

Look at the difference the Holy Spirit made in the life of Peter. He walked with Jesus for 3 years, and still denied him at the crucifixion. Even with Jesus blowing the Holy Spirit on the remaining disciples after Judas died, they were told to wait in Jerusalem for when they would receive POWER. But they didn't stand still and do nothing. They cast lots to pick another apostle to replace Judas! But Jesus chose Saul/Paul Himself. It was then at Pentecost with this second, more powerful baptism that Peter received power to prophesy, which was what he did with his sermon on Joel 2. The 120 had not been breathed on by Jesus, so Pentecost was their first filling of the Holy Spirit and they spoke the sign of tongues. Then a few nights later, in Acts 4, they received their second filling for boldness and the gifts of the Spirit.

Some people receive the first and second fillings in one powerful anointing. I did. I couldn't speak in tongues before that night, but saw a vision of my sin, God spoke to me in 8 sentences. I received many powerful gifts of the Spirit, and I found I could now speak in tongues. I had already been baptized three times during my life to that point, but I still got baptized again with the leading of the Lord, because now I was dead to sin. Before, I was buried alive!

You can see which filling people got in Acts. If they "spoke in tongues and praised God" they received only the first filling. But if they "spoke in tongues and prophesied" they also received the second at the same time like I did.

Acts 19, those were disciples of John the Baptist, not Christ. They were only baptized for repentance, the baptism of John, not Jesus. So, of course, they wouldn't have received the Holy Spirit until they had accepted Christ and was given the Holy Spirit. They were also re-baptized.

Now in the case of cessationists. I know many of them who HAVE been filled with the Spirit. However, unbelief has been drummed into them to not believe the Bible regarding gifts, that they are passed away when the Bible came into publication. Instead of believing the Bible like we do, they have virtually made the Bible a powerless idol. So sad, that the Words of God could replace God, Himself. Those cessationists that HAVE been filled, know many things through the Spirit on other subjects, but NEVER give God the credit He deserves. They experience some of the gifts of the Spirit such as Word of Wisdom, Word of Knowledge, and Prophecy (part of that gift is understanding the real meaning of a Scripture), but the chains of unbelief quench the Spirit on other things, like using the prayer language that is theirs for the taking.

 

[Biblicist]

You see, swordsman, your entire argument rests on your idea that everyone automatically receives the Holy Ghost at the moment of conversion.
But I can prove to you from the Bible that is not so.
Just because you are born again, doesn't prove you have the Holy Ghost.

As I am a tongues speaking Pentecostal of 42 years, I should point out that Pentecostals (other than oneness groups) acknowledge that all Christians, even if they do not speak in tongues, that we all have the Holy Spirit within us; no orthodox Pentecostal denomination of any repute would say that a Born Again Christian does not have the Holy Spirit within them. The following quote from the AoG website should help to clarify this point:

Holy Spirit Baptism: Frequently Asked Questions

[AoG] Do Christians receive the Holy Spirit when they are saved? If so, how is this experience different from the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

Yes, when persons accept Christ, the Holy Spirit begins a great work in their lives. The Spirit convicts them of sin, convinces them of righteousness, and dwells within them (John 6:44; 14:17; Roman 8:9; 1 Corinthians 12:13). No one becomes a Christian without this gracious work of the Holy Spirit.

However, there is an additional and distinct ministry of the Holy Spirit called the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The Baptism is an empowering gift from God the Father that is promised to every believer (Matthew 3:11; Luke 11:13; 24:49; Acts 2:33, 38). It helps the Christian to live a holy life and also brings a new devotional attachment to Jesus Christ, making Him very real and precious. The primary purpose of the Baptism is to give greater power for witnessing (Acts 1:8). Other benefits include a greater joy in spiritual service, and a heightened sense of one's mission to the world.​

For classic-Pentecostals (such as the AoG), they of course hold to the view that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues is subsequent to our initial salvation, where we first receive the Holy Spirit; even this view is coming under heavy scrutiny where fewer and fewer Pentecostal scholars are prepared to support this understanding.

Even so, I am thoroughly convinced that the normal Biblical pattern for our entering into the Kingdom of God is to repent and acknowledge Jesus as Lord, where we are then baptised into the Kingdom of God by being Baptised in the Holy Spirit - where tongues should ideally occur immediately.

 

[1stcenturylady]

As I am a tongues speaking Pentecostal of 42 years, I should point out that Pentecostals (other than oneness groups) acknowledge that all Christians, even if they do not speak in tongues, that we all have the Holy Spirit within us; no orthodox Pentecostal denomination of any repute would say that a Born Again Christian does not have the Holy Spirit within them. The following quote from the AoG website should help to clarify this point:

Holy Spirit Baptism: Frequently Asked Questions

[AoG] Do Christians receive the Holy Spirit when they are saved? If so, how is this experience different from the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

Yes, when persons accept Christ, the Holy Spirit begins a great work in their lives. The Spirit convicts them of sin, convinces them of righteousness, and dwells within them (John 6:44; 14:17; Roman 8:9; 1 Corinthians 12:13). No one becomes a Christian without this gracious work of the Holy Spirit.

However, there is an additional and distinct ministry of the Holy Spirit called the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The Baptism is an empowering gift from God the Father that is promised to every believer (Matthew 3:11; Luke 11:13; 24:49; Acts 2:33, 38). It helps the Christian to live a holy life and also brings a new devotional attachment to Jesus Christ, making Him very real and precious. The primary purpose of the Baptism is to give greater power for witnessing (Acts 1:8). Other benefits include a greater joy in spiritual service, and a heightened sense of one's mission to the world.​

For classic-Pentecostals (such as the AoG), they of course hold to the view that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues is subsequent to our initial salvation, where we first receive the Holy Spirit; even this view is coming under heavy scrutiny where fewer and fewer Pentecostal scholars are prepared to support this understanding.

Even so, I am thoroughly convinced that the normal Biblical pattern for our entering into the Kingdom of God is to repent and acknowledge Jesus as Lord, where we are then baptised into the Kingdom of God by being Baptised in the Holy Spirit - where tongues should ideally occur immediately.

I do not hold to the "evidence" theory that it is speaking in tongues as AoG. No, it is being dead to sin. Speaking in our prayer language, which is similar, but not the same as the GIFT of receiving messages from God in tongues that need interpretation. Therefore, a cessationist can be dead to sin, but never speak in tongues, but not because they don't have this sign, as it is to all who truly believe. The problem is, they must also believe in tongues, and too many have believed the lie rather than the truth.

Though I have gone to AoG, Vineyard and Four Square Pentecostal churches, I am not a denominationalist. If the Bible tells me something different than the denomination, I respect their beliefs, but choose to believe the Bible.

 

[Biblicist]

I do not hold to the "evidence" theory that it is speaking in tongues as AoG. No, it is being dead to sin. Speaking in our prayer language, which is similar, but not the same as the GIFT of receiving messages from God in tongues that need interpretation. Therefore, a cessationist can be dead to sin, but never speak in tongues, but not because they don't have this sign, as it is to all who truly believe. The problem is, they must also believe in tongues, and too many have believed the lie rather than the truth.

Though I have gone to AoG, Vineyard and Four Square Pentecostal churches, I am not a denominationalist. If the Bible tells me something different than the denomination, I respect their beliefs, but choose to believe the Bible.

I used to hold to the old classic-Pentecostal understanding that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit was intended to be subsequent to our receiving the Holy Spirit at the moment of our initial salvation-conversion up until maybe five years back; though looking back I now wonder why I did, other than I probably uncritically accepted the status quo and as I only began to speak in tongues about 18 months after my conversion then this experience can very easily be understood (and certainly seemingly experienced) as a second or subsequent experience.

As for tongues being the evidence of our receiving the Holy Spirit at our Salvific encounter, I recognise that all one has to do to receive the Holy Spirit, or to be Baptised in the Holy Spirit, is to acknowledge Christ as their Lord and Saviour. When it comes to the Biblical pattern where the Believers spoke in tongues, this certainly stands out as the normal experience for the early Church where we should be teaching those who are about to confess Christ as Lord that they can expect to immediately speak in tongues. For those who do not speak in tongues, either as a result of inadequate teaching or preparation by those around them, or where maybe they have a few issues with 'letting-go", this does not mean that they are not Baptised in the Holy Spirit but this does signify a less than Biblical experience of Salvation, though they are still Saved and Baptised in the Holy Spirit.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I used to hold to the old classic-Pentecostal understanding that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit was intended to be subsequent to our receiving the Holy Spirit at the moment of our initial salvation-conversion up until maybe five years back; though looking back I now wonder why I did, other than I probably uncritically accepted the status quo and as I only began to speak in tongues about 18 months after my conversion then this experience can very easily be understood (and certainly seemingly experienced) as a second or subsequent experience.

As for tongues being the evidence of our receiving the Holy Spirit at our Salvific encounter, I recognise that all one has to do to receive the Holy Spirit, or to be Baptised in the Holy Spirit, is to acknowledge Christ as their Lord and Saviour. When it comes to the Biblical pattern where the Believers spoke in tongues, this certainly stands out as the normal experience for the early Church where we should be teaching those who are about to confess Christ as Lord that they can expect to immediately speak in tongues. For those who do not speak in tongues, either as a result of inadequate teaching or preparation by those around them, or where maybe they have a few issues with 'letting-go", this does not mean that they are not Baptised in the Holy Spirit but this does signify a less than Biblical experience of Salvation, though they are still Saved and Baptised in the Holy Spirit.

The problem between different sects of Christianity is we all do not hold to the same definitions of terms. Being filled with the Holy Spirit and Baptized with the Holy Spirit have become confused. So which came first, the chicken or the egg... And it doesn't help to debate the terms, the other will hold fast to their own definition.

One thing missing from some sects of Christianity is repentance. I've talked to Calvinists who believe repentance is works and has nothing to do with salvation which is all on Christ. But, here is the conundrum with that. You must repent and turn away from sin in order to make Jesus the Lord of your life, AND to receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38. If we don't repent, receive the Holy Spirit, then our belief in Jesus is the same as the demons, just knowledge, and Romans 8:9 says we don't even belong to Christ. Jesus said, "If you love me keep my commandments." That is to OBEY Him. James said, without works you faith is dead." Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14, the chapter on speaking in tongues and how it plays in worship, these words are a commandment of the Lord." It seems swordsman doesn't want to hear the truth and has left us. It is still good to discuss this among ourselves, the believers, to help others in the future.

 

[PollyJetix]

1stcenturylady...

Just a few points, based on your post...
1. How could the 12 have received the Holy Ghost when Jesus breathed on them? The Holy Ghost had not yet been sent from heaven. I doubt that they actually received it that night. I suspect what Jesus gave was simply a preview of that "rushing mighty wind" that filled the house. Jesus was not yet ascended. He breathed a presence of Heaven over them, to keep them, perhaps, until the Day of Pentecost, when they would receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. "Baptism" means overwhelming. Dunking. And that's what happened on Pentecost.

2. I don't think there is sufficient Scripture to maintain the position that there are 2 Holy Ghost baptisms. The 12 who were breathed upon, did indeed receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost... just as did the others of the 120. And the 12 were among the group who were re-visited by the Holy Ghost again in Acts 4! That would have been their 3rd baptism, if each visitation were to be considered a re-baptism.
The early Pentecostals of Appalachia tried to put labels on subsequent visitations of the Holy Ghost. They had the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and then they called the next one, the Baptism of Fire, then there came Baptisms of Lyddite, etc. None of which are in the Bible. They just wanted to call it something. But it was based on their imagination, not the Word.

But there is only one Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and it is the "receiving" of the Holy Ghost, in Scripture.

3. In Acts 8, the way the Apostles knew the believers had not received the Holy Ghost, was not because of some deep, spiritual, unseen revelation in their spirits. It was because... read it in verse 16. The apostles went down to pray for them because the Holy Ghost had not yet "fallen upon" them.

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

They were baptized, but they had not yet received the Holy Ghost.
How did they know? Because the Holy Ghost had not yet "fallen upon" them.
What did "falling upon" consist of?

Well, you have to read further, to get a hint:

Acts 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

This "recieving" of the Holy Ghost by having Him "fall upon" you was so dramatic that Simon the Sorcerer asked for the power to do it.
Notice, Simon was a very carnal person. This was not something only perceived by super-spiritual people.
And Simon had followed Phillip around, marveling at the signs and wonders.
Simon himself was a wonder-worker. He was amazed at the power Phillip had, and was trying to pick up some "vibes" perhaps, by hanging around him.
But what he saw when the Holy Ghost fell upon the believers... it outdid all he had seen Phillip do. He knew THIS was the holy grail of spiritual power!

He saw something. Something bigger than any of the signs and wonders. What was it?

I think we are very safe to say it was tongues. And probably a good bit of other physical manifestation.

After all, what other outward sign was ever accepted as proof that new believers had received the Holy Ghost?
Acts 19, they believed and were baptized... and THEN, subsequent to the new birth, and to water baptism, they received the Holy Ghost. (which is the pattern, usually.)
Acts 8, They believed and were baptized... and then, it didn't happen... so the apostles risked their lives to make sure they received... and they did... they knew, by an outward evidence.
Acts 2, Peter preached that if the crowd would believe, repent, and be baptized, they would receive. (Notice the order of operations) And what that crowd was expecting to receive, was "THIS is THAT"... which the 120 were demonstrating... and that's what they got. Otherwise, Peter was guilty of false advertising.

4. New believers receive Christ, not the Holy Ghost, at the moment of the new birth.

Romans 8:9...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

NOW, The spirit of Christ is Christ Himself, not the Holy Ghost... After all, as a person before his baptism, Christ was God in the flesh. The Spirit of Christ from ages past dwelt in that body of flesh. But the Holy Ghost came upon Christ at His baptism. Two separate persons of the godhead there.

Romans 7 was a cry for help. Paul loved God in his spirit. His inner man. It wasn't really the real Paul, who sinned. This is happening to one who is born again. "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" He cries!
Romans 8 is a promise: There is deliverance from that power, by a greater power.

Look at verse 10. If Christ is in us, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive, because of righteousness.
This is Romans 7!!
BUT.
BUT there's a higher step, than just having Christ in you!
The word BUT means something.
It means "however".

You see, the one who raised up Jesus, isn't Jesus. It's the Father.
And the Holy Spirit, is the Spirit sent from the Father! Remember that Jesus said the Father would send the Spirit, if He would ascend to the Father? The Spirit could not come until Jesus went up.

So, if Christ is in you, your fleshly body is a dead weight on you, because the real you inside is alive in Christ.
BUT... HOWEVER!
... if the Spirit of Him who raised up Christ from the dead dwells in you--tell me what happens?!!
THEN, it brings to life this mortal body!

The context is not talking about the resurrection after physical death.
Not before or after.
The entire context is talking about death and life in a spiritual sense, and victory over a fleshly body.

Verse 11 is, too.
The path to victory over the flesh... the route to putting life into "the body of this death" ... is to be filled with
"The Spirit of Him that raised Christ from the dead!"

And THAT, my dear, is the BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST.

Read Acts 8 and Acts 19. The disciples in Ephesus were asked if they had "received' the Holy Ghost since they had believed.
IF the Holy Ghost is received at the moment of conversion, Paul would never have asked them if it had happened. He would only have asked them if they had believed on Jesus Christ!
It's a bit like asking at a restaurant in south Georgia, if grits came with the eggs.

Today, most Christians would never dare to ask Paul's question, because of the implications.
But Paul's question is just as valid today as it was back then.
And once a new convert is baptized, they ought to have hands laid upon them, and the Holy Ghost should be expected to "fall upon" them.

Otherwise, we are not preaching the same gospel Paul, or any of the other apostles, preached.

And if we say the Holy Ghost is automatically received without any outward manifestation, at the moment of the new birth, then we preach a different doctrine than what the apostles in Acts 8 preached.

(sarcasm on) If the apostles had only known it was an automatic thing, they could have stayed in hiding, and not have risked their lives over this! (sarcasm off)

 

[1stcenturylady]

1stcenturylady...

Just a few points, based on your post...
1. How could the 12 have received the Holy Ghost when Jesus breathed on them? The Holy Ghost had not yet been sent from heaven. I doubt that they actually received it that night. I suspect what Jesus gave was simply a preview of that "rushing mighty wind" that filled the house. Jesus was not yet ascended. He breathed a presence of Heaven over them, to keep them, perhaps, until the Day of Pentecost, when they would receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. "Baptism" means overwhelming. Dunking. And that's what happened on Pentecost.

2. I don't think there is sufficient Scripture to maintain the position that there are 2 Holy Ghost baptisms. The 12 who were breathed upon, did indeed receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost... just as did the others of the 120. And the 12 were among the group who were re-visited by the Holy Ghost again in Acts 4! That would have been their 3rd baptism, if each visitation were to be considered a re-baptism.
The early Pentecostals of Appalachia tried to put labels on subsequent visitations of the Holy Ghost. They had the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and then they called the next one, the Baptism of Fire, then there came Baptisms of Lyddite, etc. None of which are in the Bible. They just wanted to call it something. But it was based on their imagination, not the Word.

But there is only one Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and it is the "receiving" of the Holy Ghost, in Scripture.

3. In Acts 8, the way the Apostles knew the believers had not received the Holy Ghost, was not because of some deep, spiritual, unseen revelation in their spirits. It was because... read it in verse 16. The apostles went down to pray for them because the Holy Ghost had not yet "fallen upon" them.



They were baptized, but they had not yet received the Holy Ghost.
How did they know? Because the Holy Ghost had not yet "fallen upon" them.
What did "falling upon" consist of?

Well, you have to read further, to get a hint:


This "recieving" of the Holy Ghost by having Him "fall upon" you was so dramatic that Simon the Sorcerer asked for the power to do it.
Notice, Simon was a very carnal person. This was not something only perceived by super-spiritual people.
And Simon had followed Phillip around, marveling at the signs and wonders.
Simon himself was a wonder-worker. He was amazed at the power Phillip had, and was trying to pick up some "vibes" perhaps, by hanging around him.
But what he saw when the Holy Ghost fell upon the believers... it outdid all he had seen Phillip do. He knew THIS was the holy grail of spiritual power!

He saw something. Something bigger than any of the signs and wonders. What was it?

I think we are very safe to say it was tongues. And probably a good bit of other physical manifestation.

After all, what other outward sign was ever accepted as proof that new believers had received the Holy Ghost?
Acts 19, they believed and were baptized... and THEN, subsequent to the new birth, and to water baptism, they received the Holy Ghost. (which is the pattern, usually.)
Acts 8, They believed and were baptized... and then, it didn't happen... so the apostles risked their lives to make sure they received... and they did... they knew, by an outward evidence.
Acts 2, Peter preached that if the crowd would believe, repent, and be baptized, they would receive. (Notice the order of operations) And what that crowd was expecting to receive, was "THIS is THAT"... which the 120 were demonstrating... and that's what they got. Otherwise, Peter was guilty of false advertising.

4. New believers receive Christ, not the Holy Ghost, at the moment of the new birth.

NOW, The spirit of Christ is Christ Himself, not the Holy Ghost... After all, as a person before his baptism, Christ was God in the flesh. The Spirit of Christ from ages past dwelt in that body of flesh. But the Holy Ghost came upon Christ at His baptism. Two separate persons of the godhead there.

Romans 7 was a cry for help. Paul loved God in his spirit. His inner man. It wasn't really the real Paul, who sinned. This is happening to one who is born again. "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" He cries!
Romans 8 is a promise: There is deliverance from that power, by a greater power.

Look at verse 10. If Christ is in us, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive, because of righteousness.
This is Romans 7!!
BUT.
BUT there's a higher step, than just having Christ in you!
The word BUT means something.
It means "however".

You see, the one who raised up Jesus, isn't Jesus. It's the Father.
And the Holy Spirit, is the Spirit sent from the Father! Remember that Jesus said the Father would send the Spirit, if He would ascend to the Father? The Spirit could not come until Jesus went up.

So, if Christ is in you, your fleshly body is a dead weight on you, because the real you inside is alive in Christ.
BUT... HOWEVER!
... if the Spirit of Him who raised up Christ from the dead dwells in you--tell me what happens?!!
THEN, it brings to life this mortal body!

The context is not talking about the resurrection after physical death.
Not before or after.
The entire context is talking about death and life in a spiritual sense, and victory over a fleshly body.

Verse 11 is, too.
The path to victory over the flesh... the route to putting life into "the body of this death" ... is to be filled with
"The Spirit of Him that raised Christ from the dead!"

And THAT, my dear, is the BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST.

Read Acts 8 and Acts 19. The disciples in Ephesus were asked if they had "received' the Holy Ghost since they had believed.
IF the Holy Ghost is received at the moment of conversion, Paul would never have asked them if it had happened. He would only have asked them if they had believed on Jesus Christ!
It's a bit like asking at a restaurant in south Georgia, if grits came with the eggs.

Today, most Christians would never dare to ask Paul's question, because of the implications.
But Paul's question is just as valid today as it was back then.
And once a new convert is baptized, they ought to have hands laid upon them, and the Holy Ghost should be expected to "fall upon" them.

Otherwise, we are not preaching the same gospel Paul, or any of the other apostles, preached.

And if we say the Holy Ghost is automatically received without any outward manifestation, at the moment of the new birth, then we preach a different doctrine than what the apostles in Acts 8 preached.

(sarcasm on) If the apostles had only known it was an automatic thing, they could have stayed in hiding, and not have risked their lives over this! (sarcasm off)

First things first "21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Polly, believe the Word. Don't you see the first filling is not as powerful as the second? They received the powerful filling (the second) at Pentecost and prophesied! The other 120 received the first at Pentecost and praised God in tongues, but received their second in Act 4 for signs and wonders and boldness. People, when saved, don't usually receive the second as their faith isn't there, it is only enough to receive Jesus, but they still have the Holy Spirit.

(Why is your post so big, are you mad at me?). I haven't read it all. Will answer other sections later.

 

[Albion]

First things first "21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

There's nothing here that indicates that he was speaking to or about every believer for all of time to come.

 

[1stcenturylady]

There's nothing here that indicates that he was speaking to or about every believer for all of time to come.

Of course not, Jesus only breathed on the 11 disciples then. They were to wait then in Jerusalem for the Power. We need both the Holy Spirit, and His POWER to be effective as Christians.

 

[1stcenturylady]

1stcenturylady...

Just a few points, based on your post...
1. How could the 12 have received the Holy Ghost when Jesus breathed on them? The Holy Ghost had not yet been sent from heaven. I doubt that they actually received it that night. I suspect what Jesus gave was simply a preview of that "rushing mighty wind" that filled the house. Jesus was not yet ascended. He breathed a presence of Heaven over them, to keep them, perhaps, until the Day of Pentecost, when they would receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. "Baptism" means overwhelming. Dunking. And that's what happened on Pentecost.

2. I don't think there is sufficient Scripture to maintain the position that there are 2 Holy Ghost baptisms. The 12 who were breathed upon, did indeed receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost... just as did the others of the 120. And the 12 were among the group who were re-visited by the Holy Ghost again in Acts 4! That would have been their 3rd baptism, if each visitation were to be considered a re-baptism.
The early Pentecostals of Appalachia tried to put labels on subsequent visitations of the Holy Ghost. They had the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and then they called the next one, the Baptism of Fire, then there came Baptisms of Lyddite, etc. None of which are in the Bible. They just wanted to call it something. But it was based on their imagination, not the Word.

But there is only one Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and it is the "receiving" of the Holy Ghost, in Scripture.

3. In Acts 8, the way the Apostles knew the believers had not received the Holy Ghost, was not because of some deep, spiritual, unseen revelation in their spirits. It was because... read it in verse 16. The apostles went down to pray for them because the Holy Ghost had not yet "fallen upon" them.



They were baptized, but they had not yet received the Holy Ghost.
How did they know? Because the Holy Ghost had not yet "fallen upon" them.
What did "falling upon" consist of?

Well, you have to read further, to get a hint:


This "recieving" of the Holy Ghost by having Him "fall upon" you was so dramatic that Simon the Sorcerer asked for the power to do it.
Notice, Simon was a very carnal person. This was not something only perceived by super-spiritual people.
And Simon had followed Phillip around, marveling at the signs and wonders.
Simon himself was a wonder-worker. He was amazed at the power Phillip had, and was trying to pick up some "vibes" perhaps, by hanging around him.
But what he saw when the Holy Ghost fell upon the believers... it outdid all he had seen Phillip do. He knew THIS was the holy grail of spiritual power!

He saw something. Something bigger than any of the signs and wonders. What was it?

I think we are very safe to say it was tongues. And probably a good bit of other physical manifestation.

After all, what other outward sign was ever accepted as proof that new believers had received the Holy Ghost?
Acts 19, they believed and were baptized... and THEN, subsequent to the new birth, and to water baptism, they received the Holy Ghost. (which is the pattern, usually.)
Acts 8, They believed and were baptized... and then, it didn't happen... so the apostles risked their lives to make sure they received... and they did... they knew, by an outward evidence.
Acts 2, Peter preached that if the crowd would believe, repent, and be baptized, they would receive. (Notice the order of operations) And what that crowd was expecting to receive, was "THIS is THAT"... which the 120 were demonstrating... and that's what they got. Otherwise, Peter was guilty of false advertising.

4. New believers receive Christ, not the Holy Ghost, at the moment of the new birth.

NOW, The spirit of Christ is Christ Himself, not the Holy Ghost... After all, as a person before his baptism, Christ was God in the flesh. The Spirit of Christ from ages past dwelt in that body of flesh. But the Holy Ghost came upon Christ at His baptism. Two separate persons of the godhead there.

Romans 7 was a cry for help. Paul loved God in his spirit. His inner man. It wasn't really the real Paul, who sinned. This is happening to one who is born again. "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" He cries!
Romans 8 is a promise: There is deliverance from that power, by a greater power.

Look at verse 10. If Christ is in us, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive, because of righteousness.
This is Romans 7!!
BUT.
BUT there's a higher step, than just having Christ in you!
The word BUT means something.
It means "however".

You see, the one who raised up Jesus, isn't Jesus. It's the Father.
And the Holy Spirit, is the Spirit sent from the Father! Remember that Jesus said the Father would send the Spirit, if He would ascend to the Father? The Spirit could not come until Jesus went up.

So, if Christ is in you, your fleshly body is a dead weight on you, because the real you inside is alive in Christ.
BUT... HOWEVER!
... if the Spirit of Him who raised up Christ from the dead dwells in you--tell me what happens?!!
THEN, it brings to life this mortal body!

The context is not talking about the resurrection after physical death.
Not before or after.
The entire context is talking about death and life in a spiritual sense, and victory over a fleshly body.

Verse 11 is, too.
The path to victory over the flesh... the route to putting life into "the body of this death" ... is to be filled with
"The Spirit of Him that raised Christ from the dead!"

And THAT, my dear, is the BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST.

Read Acts 8 and Acts 19. The disciples in Ephesus were asked if they had "received' the Holy Ghost since they had believed.
IF the Holy Ghost is received at the moment of conversion, Paul would never have asked them if it had happened. He would only have asked them if they had believed on Jesus Christ!
It's a bit like asking at a restaurant in south Georgia, if grits came with the eggs.

Today, most Christians would never dare to ask Paul's question, because of the implications.
But Paul's question is just as valid today as it was back then.
And once a new convert is baptized, they ought to have hands laid upon them, and the Holy Ghost should be expected to "fall upon" them.

Otherwise, we are not preaching the same gospel Paul, or any of the other apostles, preached.

And if we say the Holy Ghost is automatically received without any outward manifestation, at the moment of the new birth, then we preach a different doctrine than what the apostles in Acts 8 preached.

(sarcasm on) If the apostles had only known it was an automatic thing, they could have stayed in hiding, and not have risked their lives over this! (sarcasm off)

Second point: It is not a third, as the apostles only received two. The first when Jesus breathed on them, and on the Day of Pentecost. The apostles were off to the side when the 120 were praising God in tongues.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.

We can receive many fillings, I didn't say baptisms. But we need at least two to be effective to others.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There's nothing here that indicates that he was speaking to or about every believer for all of time to come.

There is nothing there to say that He wasn't!

 

[1stcenturylady]

There is nothing there to say that He wasn't!

Oscar, what are you saying? That when Jesus breathed on the disciples in John 20 it was for us too? No, it was just to the apostles. Why would you think otherwise? Explain.

 

[PollyJetix]

(Why is your post so big, are you mad at me?). I haven't read it all. Will answer other sections later.

I made a mistake while posting. First of all, it was getting toward 2 a.m. because I was just home from visiting revivals 3 hrs away from home. And I had a prayer meeting to lead at 7 a.m. Time pressure there.
Second, I have bad eyesight. Just as I was posting, I somehow made the font very small. So I tried to correct it. But I didn't realize how large I corrected it. And I was so exhausted that I just couldn't mess with it further.

I don't think you realize how badly you have misinterpreted Scripture.

This is the kind of mistake that, if a lot of people latch onto, it creates strange doctrines.
The first Methodists thought that sanctification was a "second work of grace" and required ALL to seek that second work.
And they influenced the Pentecostal movement heavily... so that major denominations now see a three-step process:
First, they say you must be born again, then they say you must seek a spiritual breakthrough experience that sanctifies you... as if the Blood of Jesus didn't do that! Then and only then, they say, are you ready for the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Problem is, that's not what the disciples taught or did in Acts. It was a two-step process. First came the new birth, with immediate water baptism. And then came the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Ghost. (Unless God chooses to upset this order of things, which He did once.)

What you are saying is that God does a two-step process of filling with the Holy Ghost.
I can't find that.
I see that the Holy Ghost fell in Acts 2 and again in Acts 4. But that's nothing unusual. I have had the Holy Ghost fall on me far more times than only 2! And His infilling is only growing every time. Not lessening.

If you make the time Jesus breathed on the 12, a baptism of the Holy Ghost, then you've got not 2, but 3 baptisms.
Because those 12 were there when Jesus breathed on them, and in Acts 2, and then also in Acts 4.
That makes 3 times.