Speaking in tongues.

[AllTalkNoAction]

This day has not come to pass as of yet.

Acts 2

Really?
I never heard that teaching before!

it says "when the day of Pentecost was fully come"

What is it, some sort of prophecy of what will happen to the disciples after Jesus ascended?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I love your questions, I love questions, but your questions have already been answered which I think seems to cause some to see if there is cause to ban you.

Let me see if I can outline the answers for you, I will probably miss something and I am not going to look up all the passages for outline purposes. But before I delve into that outline, let me say this Oscar, since we have talked before. You will not agree with the evidence be provided, you will not see it because it questions your own beliefs, however, disagreement and blindness are not equal to no answers or even lack of evidence. IOW's when evidence is provided it is necessary to evaluate it and then say, okay, I still don't agree but thanks. The problems come when the evidence is not presented, and so I present it in short form so that if you missed it you have an opportunity to do what you will with it.

I accept that. We are not going to agree on all points because our experiences are different. For example, I live in one country and you live in another and we have different cultures and priorities. We have different life experiences and have come through our church live differently, under different ministries with different doctrines; so it would be natural for us to not to see the Christian world in the same way. It is not that either of us is blind, but we have differing mind pictures of what we think is appropriate or not.

Actual experience (I provided this one and I know you were not satisfied because I was not the person who was demonized and therefore couldn't tell you everything you want to know, but it was provided)

We have the scriptures which offer the following disagreements with your assertions.
1. wolves wear sheeps clothing
2. Acts tongues are about hearing not speaking (this one I don't see eye to eye with the OP'er about but I don't totally disagree either, I would just add some things others are leaving out)
3. The purpose of tongues which includes and entire discussion about how it is done as well as the whole idea of edifying.
Let me see, what did I leave out....Oh yeah,
4. teaching, the difference between teaching what the bible says and what the charismatic movement usually teaches.

What did I forget, anyone?

I have to get off to work now, so I will respond to this when I get home tonight.

 

[amadeus2]

This is what Stone had posted earlier: A clue hear is that each of the folks from other countries heard them all speak at the same time in their own language, not one after the other, but all at the same time.

so, to test those that claim to speak in tongue's, have handy a few that speak different languages, and when this person speaks in toungue's, each of them should hear in their own tongue.

Can you prove that God exists using the scientific method? No! It starts with faith and grows from there if properly fed with the Word and Spirit of God.

One problem with your test is that I for one see at least three different gifts of tongues.

1) The gift shown in Acts 2 where a person unable to speak other than his own native language is understood by others in their own native languages. [I have never witnessed this one, but have heard testimonies of people who have witnessed the gift in use and/or received the gift.]

2) Messages from God in an unknown tongue with an accompanying interpretation for all of those present. [This I have witnessed many times. My wife has this gift been used both is giving the message from God and in giving the interpretation of it.]

3) The tongue spoken only for communicating with God privately. [This is the gift which I have]

 

[amadeus2]

Hi MichaelTheeArchAngel, but I don't think that speaking in tongues is always earthly languages...what you described happened at Pentecost, but my point is that since Paul said that speaking in tongues is 'speaking mysteries to God', it can include unknown languages also.

I agree!

 

[shuntmama]

Really?
I never heard that teaching before!

it says "when the day of Pentecost was fully come"

What is it, some sort of prophecy of what will happen to the disciples after Jesus ascended?

I was referng to the Pentecostal tounge.



Joel 2


1Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
12Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
13And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
14Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
15Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
18Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
19Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
20But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
21Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.
22Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
23Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.


(This is the Pentecostal Tounge)

28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. 32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


Love in Christ,sarah

 

[zeke37]

What about all those atheists who speak more than one language?

They are still gifted, but the Holy Spirit is not there because they do not use their gift properly...or in His service. There are many who do not use the gifts God gives properly...

Even in sects that translate to other languages?

I do not understand what you are trying to tell me here.

There are many divisions of Christianity, some more correct than others (IMO) but Christ should be front and center...If someone accepts Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord...then they are going to be saved....no matter what sect they belong to....

of course true belief also means following Christ...not just professing Christ...

in His service
c

 

[radrick]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this thread and this conversation. I've allways been interested in tongues, and if it even makes any sense to anyone, but the one speaking it. But I like what is being said by some. I will start following along a little closer. I'm here to learn.
God Bless, Rick

 

[prisca1]

How much scripture does it take to get people to understand this?
Nobody has to tell me about the so called tongues thing because I grew up with it.

Lets just do the chapter shall we?



Acts 2


1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
ruarch=Holy Spirit

3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
cloven=more then one
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
they understood it
7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
down to the very dialect
9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
understood them completely
12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
9:00 a.m.
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
have you seen any of these signs yet? I think not not!
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
saved from whom? Saved from what? Saved from anti-christ of course. Is anti-christ here yet? I think not! When do we prophecy and speek with those cloven tongues??? When we are delivered up! Has anyone been delivered up yet?
I think not!
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
delivered up
24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
save yourselves and come out of babyl and traditions of men "God told me today" Oh did he?
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
singleness of heart -no confusion in there beliefs
47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

hebrew-la-ag
1) mocking
a) mocker
AV — mocker 1, stammering 1

Ezekiel 13:6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
babyling and then interperet
7Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?
babyling and then supposedly interpreting

1) to mock, deride, ridicule
a) (Qal) to mock, deride, have in derision
b) (Niphal) to stammer
c) (Hiphil) to mock, deride

AV — mock 8, scorn 3, laugh 3, have in derision 2, laugh to scorn 1, stammering 1
to speek barbariously, as a buffoon
Ezekiel 13


1And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their OWN hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;
3Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their OWN spirit, and have seen nothing!

 

[amadeus2]

zeke37: God's speech doesn't sound like barbarian speech...it sounds like Thunder...

Or perhaps in "a still small voice" [I Kings 19:12]

 

[zeke37]

How much scripture does it take to get people to understand this?
Nobody has to tell me about the so called tongues thing because I grew up with it.

Lets just do the chapter shall we?



Acts 2


1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
ruarch=Holy Spirit

3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
cloven=more then one
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
they understood it
7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
down to the very dialect
9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
understood them completely
12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
9:00 a.m.
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
have you seen any of these signs yet? I think not not!
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
saved from whom? Saved from what? Saved from anti-christ of course. Is anti-christ here yet? I think not! When do we prophecy and speek with those cloven tongues??? When we are delivered up! Has anyone been delivered up yet?
I think not!
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
delivered up
24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
save yourselves and come out of babyl and traditions of men "God told me today" Oh did he?
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
singleness of heart -no confusion in there beliefs
47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

hebrew-la-ag
1) mocking
a) mocker
AV — mocker 1, stammering 1

Ezekiel 13:6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
babyling and then interperet
7Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?
babyling and then supposedly interpreting

1) to mock, deride, ridicule
a) (Qal) to mock, deride, have in derision
b) (Niphal) to stammer
c) (Hiphil) to mock, deride

AV — mock 8, scorn 3, laugh 3, have in derision 2, laugh to scorn 1, stammering 1
to speek barbariously, as a buffoon
Ezekiel 13


1And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their OWN hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;
3Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their OWN spirit, and have seen nothing!

wow, excellent insight...

You have spent some time in a charismatic church I presume...

 

[amadeus2]

If we are governed by the HS. There can be no disagreement.

Yes, if everyone was governed completely by the Holy Spirit everyone would agree on the things of God. There would be no multitude (30,000?) of Christian denominations. There would be no multitude of human languages.

 

[zeke37]

Yes, if everyone was governed completely by the Holy Spirit everyone would agree on the things of God. There would be no multitude (30,000?) of Christian denominations. There would be no multitude of human languages.

seems like that will indeed happen in the near future....when Joel2 is fulfilled, as we saw a type for in Acts2...

God will pour His Spirit on ALL.....

 

[Svt4Him]

If you speak more than one language....it is a gift from God....and the true meaning of the gift of tongues....

No it is not, it's a skill you learn. If I take a class and learn, I do not receive a gift, I develop a skill. Anyone can learn another language if they had the motivation, time and patience. You don't learn gifts, they are given. You can direct and teach how to use a gift, but you don't learn the gift, so they are totally unrelated and have nothing in common with the true meaning of gift.

 

[zeke37]

have at it friend

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Actual experience (I provided this one and I know you were not satisfied because I was not the person who was demonized and therefore couldn't tell you everything you want to know, but it was provided)

We have the scriptures which offer the following disagreements with your assertions.
1. wolves wear sheeps clothing
2. Acts tongues are about hearing not speaking (this one I don't see eye to eye with the OP'er about but I don't totally disagree either, I would just add some things others are leaving out)
3. The purpose of tongues which includes and entire discussion about how it is done as well as the whole idea of edifying.
Let me see, what did I leave out....Oh yeah,
4. teaching, the difference between teaching what the bible says and what the charismatic movement usually teaches.

What did I forget, anyone?

Now that I am back home, I will give my response to the second part of your post.

If we base our judgement on an organisation and its beliefs on the experiences that we see, then we have to observe the whole range of experiences from a large population of subjects over all the Pentecostal and Charismatic denominations, plus the Charismatic people who fellowship in the mainstream denominations.

Taking one experience from one particular Pentecostal church and basing your attitude toward the Pentecostal gifts on it is like taking one person from the city of New York and developing an attitude about that city upon the basis of that one person's experience. If the person is a gang member from the Bronx who regularly takes drugs and murders people, then you may have a belief that New York is full of drug addicts and murderers. It's like some people's attitude toward New Zealand. People think that we have sheep all through our towns and cities, that they wander the streets; or that we still have hitching rails in the streets and the natives wander around in grass skirts, all because they saw some pictures of New Zealand taken in 1860.

There is no such thing as "The Pentecostal Church" or "The Charismatic Church". The Pentecostal and Charismatic movement is made up of hundreds of different denominations, both large and small, each with their own special character. There are also believers with Charismatic beliefs scattered all through the different mainstream denominations including the Roman Catholic Church. Each of these different groups and individuals are as different from each other as chalk and cheese.

So you can't develop any sort of consistent attitude from just one Pentecostal church even, because the one down the road may have a totally different character to it. Pentecostal churches are different from country to country. Pentecostals in the USA are quite different to Pentecostals in Great Britain, and these in turn are different to those in Australia and New Zealand. German and Italian Pentecostals would be quite different again.

Even in the USA, Pentecostals from the northern states would be quite different from those in the South, and both would be quite different to those in California, and in the Bible Belt regions.

They are not limited to theologies either, because some are Calvinist, others are Arminian, ultra holiness, high orthodox, and all the stages in between.

Then there are the Pentecostal and Charismatic independent home groups who don't worship in church buildings at all. They are completely different from all the rest.

So how can you base a consistent attitude on such a wide diversity of people? Short answer: You cannot.

All you can do is to expose your own religious intolerance and ignorance of human and spiritual differences among Christian people.

My second point is that in every church there is the lunatic fringe who have beliefs and practices outside the mainstream of what is acceptable in that church. The Pentecostal churches have a larger lunatic fringe because of the free nature of their style of worship. In more structured churches with strong, well established leaderships such as those with elders, bishops and set liturgies and orders of service, the lunatic fringe does not have the same opportunity to function, as in those churches with more free styles of government and Sunday worship where anyone can get up and minister to the people.

It seems to me that the experience you describe comes from the lunatic fringe - possibly from someone who has demonic issues in her life, and possibly been involved in some type of occult practice somewhere in her life which was not properly dealt with.

The problem with the lunatic fringe is that they are more aggressive and expressive and therefore more prominent, mostly to the point of embarassment to the more conservative, sensible members of the congregation.

When the lunatic fringe get to places of leadership, you can have lunatic fringe Pentecostal ministries, and even whole churches that are operating in the lunatic fringe area of Pentecostalism.

My daughter goes to a local AOG church, and I have been to their services. I find this church is very structured, and has little evidence of any lunatic fringe activities. They have excellent training for new Christians, and other discipleship and church life courses for their youth and older members of the congregation. Their music is made up of very well trained and professional minded singers and musicians. They make good use of modern graphic technology to aid the worship. I have spoken to their pastors and their youth leaders and I am impressed with their commitment to Christ and their devotion to their callings and responsibilities. I fully support my 16 year old daughter's involvement there, and it has added much to her spiritual life. She has not reported any instance of being pressured into receiving anything into her life that she does not want there. I am impressed that the quality of the Christians who go there is such that they are good solid members of the community and good citizens with an excellent testimony for the Lord.

This post is now long enough, and I hope that it answers your comments appropriately.

 

[HypnoToad]

Actually I was invited to make comments on this thread by a member of this forum. He made a post on the P/C forum making that invitation to anyone who wanted to contribute here. So what I have posted here, I have posted by invitation.

Invitation doesn't matter. You can't be "invited" to break the rules. Whoever did so was not following the rules of this forum. There's no provision allowing such invitation.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Originally Posted by razzelflabben

1. wolves wear sheeps clothing
2. Acts tongues are about hearing not speaking (this one I don't see eye to eye with the OP'er about but I don't totally disagree either, I would just add some things others are leaving out)
3. The purpose of tongues which includes and entire discussion about how it is done as well as the whole idea of edifying.
Let me see, what did I leave out....Oh yeah,
4. teaching, the difference between teaching what the bible says and what the charismatic movement usually teaches.[/quote]

After my previous post I see that I have given a pretty general view of the Pentecostal church. What I want to do in this post is to directly address the above points you have offered to support your views which you believe is evidence that the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement is problematic.

1. There are wolves in sheep's clothing in every church, and not just the P/C movement. There are no more and no less there than in your own religious movement. So I don't think you can single out the P/C movement as being full of wolves in sheep's clothing as you are implying.

2. The Acts record is quite clear that the 120 in the upper room spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. But I agree with you that when they got down onto the street, the remarkable bit was that the hearers heard their own ethnic languages being spoken by people they believed were Galileans who were not expected to be able to speak those languages. They said "Are they not Galileans? Yet we hear them speak the praises of God in our own languages." I don't think that the 120 realised that they were speaking those languages. It was probably gobbledygook to them (respectfully stated), and so it was just as much a marvel and a shock to them that they were speaking in understandable languages. This was a one-off miracle of God to pave the way for 3000 to come to the Lord, and as a fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel, as Peter points out in his subsequent sermon.

3. Paul quite clearly teaches that the purpose of tongues is for the believer to be personally edified, or built up spiritually. There is no conflict here.

4. This point is unreliable because of what I said in my last post. There is such a diversity of teaching within the P/C movements that the whole range of teaching across all denominations and organisations will take up a 20 volume theological encylopedia. An attempt has been made to produce some sort of resource for setting it out in the book Foundations of Pentecostal Theology, but is is only a small sample of the range of belief and theology that exists in the movement as a whole.

If you are going to say that P/C theology differs from the teaching of Scripture, then you need to back that up with good solid examples to show exactly where it differs from the literal Scripture (not someone's interpretation of it).

Of course, the wonderful thing about God's Word in the Scripture is that no one can nail it down to a particular system of theology. Theologians have argued over doctrine for hundreds of years. The PhD theses based on new theological discoveries can fill entire libraries, so to generalise that P/C teaching differs from Scripture is woefully inadequate and simply not credible. All you can say, honestly, in the light of that is, "I don't go along with P/C theology and I decide not to include it in my system of belief for the way I want to conduct my spiritual life." There is absolutely no basis on which to legislate for others who will most certainly have quite a different world view to yours.

It would be like you requiring me to adopt your particular culture that you have in your region and in your country, when the culture in New Zealand could be very different. It would be like forcing a fish to breathe air. Impossible.

 

[shuntmama]

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


I do not say much of my own words, this is why I mostly post scripture. Sorry to those who prefer Man's word over God's Word. We Must Eat the Bread of life To Live,

I cannot post this long scripture, so I am posting the link to it. Tis sad when the Word of God is not welcomed anymore.


BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in over 35 languages and 50 versions.




Love in Christ, sarah

 

[razzelflabben]

I have spoken in tongues for over 30 years, but while I appreciate it as God's gift to me, I know that some people who do serve God do not have the gift.

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way." I Cor 12:28-31

Now I have heard some suggest that the greatest gift is healing, or tongues, or such, and when it is suggested that love is the greatest gift I have been told that love is not one of the gifts, so the question I pose to you, is what is the best gifts? What gifts are the greatest. You answer may or may not agree with mine but I have an additional question for those who see it as healing or tongues or such.

 

[razzelflabben]

I have had the gift of tongues for more than 30 years and make no mistake it is a gift from God. I am also tri-lingual speaking German and Spanish as well as English. learning another human language is not the same as the gift that God has given to some...

I want to clarify here that I am not questioning whether your gift of tongues is of God or not, that is between you and God and anyone who witnesses it and compares it then to the scriptures, this IS NOT a judgement question. but the question is, how do you know it is of the HS? What evidence do you offer that your gift of tongues is powered by the HS and not a demon or self as some have? Just a curious question please don't take it other. I beg you not to get offended or feel judged, I am only exploring the things of God and your post aids in that exploration.