Speaking in tongues.

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razzelflabben

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IMO, you have misunderstood the poster....she is not a believer or follower of the charismatic tongue:wave:

she is just showing relevant scripture....which you expounded correctly...(just keeping the team together...lol)

in His service
c
Not sure what you mean by that but okay. Clear and correct understanding of scriptures is not a team thing, it is a body thing and is always good.

Let me add this to what I have said. Many people get the wrong idea about me and I am prepared for those of you who think you know me and agree to suddenly change your hearts and minds. Let me illustrate with a story. Many years ago, a young christian woman asked me to talk with her. We sat at night in the car talking about the things of God. I have no set teacher or doctrine as it were, just the bible and the Love of God. Anyway, as I talked to this young woman, she became angry, so angry that she pulled out a knife and tried to stab me with it. Now it was dark so I didn't know any of this was going on and probably a good thing I didn't or I would have become involved rather than to simply allow God to do what He would. But the story she told went like this, she grew so angry that she wanted to kill me and so she pulled a knife and tried to stab me but a force like that of a hand held her arm back and did not let go until she let go of her anger. After she told me the story, I asked her if I was wrong in the things I spoke. She said, that is the point, you were spot on in everything you said. The point is this, people will be quick to applaud something I say and even to label me as to which corner I am in but sooner or later, they end up surprised because I have no authority other than Christ. Whether or not we agree on this topic it is unwise to assume that we will agree on every or that I won't correct you as quickly and easily as I do others. Now before someone goes off on that, I am not claiming to know it all, in fact, most of the time, I am studying the topic again as we are discussing and opening myself to the same critics of scripture that I offer to you all. In other words, I challenge myself equally as I discuss and study and explore the heighths and depths and mysteries of God. Which means that I don't always agree with myself either.
 
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zeke37

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well, perhaps I was incorrect....but you seem to be pretty good at answering the charismatic issues....although I already know that we disagree on some aspects....for example....

I do not believe that the charismatic tongue ever even existed in the early church....never at all until very recently...

I do not give it an inch.....but many other Christians who do not practise ecstatic tongues seem to think it is real, and from God but just not for everyone.....

To be honest, those are the ones that I wish to speak to, the others involved are "in too deep" for the most part...but the others can be warned and taught the scriptures properly, if it is in the best interest of our Father.

in His service
c
 
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zeke37

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question....

we were discussing on another thread, that the non-denom threads should be for non-denoms. other religions can fellowship here, but not enter into debate...

I see above how Oscar has entered into debate on this subject and he is a Pentecostal, with obvious Pentecostal understandings and agendas...

Does anyone else here feel that it is inappropriate for this poster to debate here?

in His service
c
 
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zeke37

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question....

we were discussing on another thread, that the non-denom threads should be for non-denoms. other religions can fellowship here, but not enter into debate...

I see above how Oscar has entered into debate on this subject and he is a Pentecostal, with obvious Pentecostal understandings and agendas...

Does anyone else here feel that it is inappropriate for this poster to debate here?

in His service
c
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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question....

we were discussing on another thread, that the non-denom threads should be for non-denoms. other religions can fellowship here, but not enter into debate...

I see above how Oscar has entered into debate on this subject and he is a Pentecostal, with obvious Pentecostal understandings and agendas...

Does anyone else here feel that it is inappropriate for this poster to debate here?

in His service
c

All I am asking is that you provide substantive proof that the Charismatic gift of tongues is of the devil, and that the present day use of tongues is not consistent with 1Cor14.

You have not been able to provide any corroborative or supportive material from respected scholarly or Biblical sources to back up your assertions. Therefore one can only conclude that what you are stating are your unsubstantiated personal opinions and nothing more.

Because you don't have the answers to my questions, you are now wanting to put pressure on to stop me asking these questions that you cannot answer.

It's like my younger brother when he plays chess. If it become obvious that he cannot win the game, he knocks the table and chessboard over saying, "Whoops sorry about that...accident!"
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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question....

we were discussing on another thread, that the non-denom threads should be for non-denoms. other religions can fellowship here, but not enter into debate...

I see above how Oscar has entered into debate on this subject and he is a Pentecostal, with obvious Pentecostal understandings and agendas...

Does anyone else here feel that it is inappropriate for this poster to debate here?

in His service
c

The forum rules state that criticism should be levelled at posts and not members. This post breaks that rule because you are inciting others on this forum to make comments about me on a personal level, and it appears that you intend to get a group together to gang up on me to silence my point of view (which also violates a forum rule), and push me off this forum. It is also against the rules to try to exclude a person from a forum because of a particular religious or doctrinal view.

In trying to take the speck out of my eye, you are exposing the great logs of wood in your own.

The quick and easy way would be to report you, but let's keep this in the public domain so that all can see what you are attempting to do.

I think you should learn to play the ball and not the player.
 
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HypnoToad

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The forum rules state that criticism should be levelled at posts and not members. This post breaks that rule because you are inciting others on this forum to make comments about me on a personal level, and it appears that you intend to get a group together to gang up on me to silence my point of view (which also violates a forum rule), and push me off this forum. It is also against the rules to try to exclude a person from a forum because of a particular religious or doctrinal view.

In trying to take the speck out of my eye, you are exposing the great logs of wood in your own.

The quick and easy way would be to report you, but let's keep this in the public domain so that all can see what you are attempting to do.

I think you should learn to play the ball and not the player.
Actually, Presbyterian is a denomination isn't it?

If you are Presbyterian, you can not be a non-denominational member, and can not currently debate in this forum. This does not break the Foru.ms rules, as you are still allowed to post, so long as you don't debate or teach; only fellowship posts are allowed for non-members.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Actually, Presbyterian is a denomination isn't it?

If you are Presbyterian, you can not be a non-denominational member, and can not currently debate in this forum. This does not break the Foru.ms rules, as you are still allowed to post, so long as you don't debate or teach; only fellowship posts are allowed for non-members.

Actually I was invited to make comments on this thread by a member of this forum. He made a post on the P/C forum making that invitation to anyone who wanted to contribute here. So what I have posted here, I have posted by invitation.
 
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shuntmama

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2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


1 John 5:6
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.



If one has the Spirit of Truth, they know the Truth, if one does not have the Spirit of Truth, then they have strong delusions. There are two Spirits, One Good, One Not.


Love in Christ, sarah
 
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razzelflabben

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well, perhaps I was incorrect....but you seem to be pretty good at answering the charismatic issues....although I already know that we disagree on some aspects....for example....

I do not believe that the charismatic tongue ever even existed in the early church....never at all until very recently...

I do not give it an inch.....but many other Christians who do not practise ecstatic tongues seem to think it is real, and from God but just not for everyone.....

To be honest, those are the ones that I wish to speak to, the others involved are "in too deep" for the most part...but the others can be warned and taught the scriptures properly, if it is in the best interest of our Father.

in His service
c
The difference it would seem is that I don't presume to know what tongues everyone in the movement speak. In other words, where it is true that the tongues most speak of are not biblical that does not mean that all tongues practiced are non biblical. Let me see if I can put it yet another way. When an atheist looks at christianity and judges it based on the charasmatic movement or on the crusades or maybe on those out there who kill claiming that there was the voice of God in their head telling them to do it, it becomes hard if not impossible to explain to them who God really is, why because of the extremes. I went to a charistmatic church once, and found nothing amiss in their teaching and what was even more astonishing, they truely demonstrated love, the I Cor. 13 love. So why then should I condemn them because some practice other than biblical tongues? Mainstream tongues as talked about usually are non biblical I agree, but that doesn't mean all charismatics, all charismatic churches, all charismatic teachers, all tongues, etc. are non biblical, it means that those who practice, teach, preach, etc. these non biblical tongues are doing so out of self or demon or anything but the HS. Preach that on dear one, but be careful not to be an extremist who forgets that tongues do exist and are biblical and are part of the bigger picture of the church (body).

Now I've got that lecture out of my system, I really miss that church and I didn't attend for long.

May the Lord of Host send warriors to attack the enemy whatever clothes he might wear. May He equip those warriors with eyes to see who is the enemy and who is not so that friendly fire does not injure any born of the King.
 
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razzelflabben

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All I am asking is that you provide substantive proof that the Charismatic gift of tongues is of the devil, and that the present day use of tongues is not consistent with 1Cor14.

You have not been able to provide any corroborative or supportive material from respected scholarly or Biblical sources to back up your assertions. Therefore one can only conclude that what you are stating are your unsubstantiated personal opinions and nothing more.

Because you don't have the answers to my questions, you are now wanting to put pressure on to stop me asking these questions that you cannot answer.

It's like my younger brother when he plays chess. If it become obvious that he cannot win the game, he knocks the table and chessboard over saying, "Whoops sorry about that...accident!"
I love your questions, I love questions, but your questions have already been answered which I think seems to cause some to see if there is cause to ban you.

Let me see if I can outline the answers for you, I will probably miss something and I am not going to look up all the passages for outline purposes. But before I delve into that outline, let me say this Oscar, since we have talked before. You will not agree with the evidence be provided, you will not see it because it questions your own beliefs, however, disagreement and blindness are not equal to no answers or even lack of evidence. IOW's when evidence is provided it is necessary to evaluate it and then say, okay, I still don't agree but thanks. The problems come when the evidence is not presented, and so I present it in short form so that if you missed it you have an opportunity to do what you will with it.

Actual experience (I provided this one and I know you were not satisfied because I was not the person who was demonized and therefore couldn't tell you everything you want to know, but it was provided)

We have the scriptures which offer the following disagreements with your assertions.
1. wolves wear sheeps clothing
2. Acts tongues are about hearing not speaking (this one I don't see eye to eye with the OP'er about but I don't totally disagree either, I would just add some things others are leaving out)
3. The purpose of tongues which includes and entire discussion about how it is done as well as the whole idea of edifying.
Let me see, what did I leave out....Oh yeah,
4. teaching, the difference between teaching what the bible says and what the charismatic movement usually teaches.

What did I forget, anyone?
 
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shuntmama

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Matthew 12
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.




If anyone would like to do a deeper study, here is a link to The Companion Bible, KJV,


http://www.companionbiblecondensed.com/


Love in Christ, sarah
 
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amadeus2

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amadeus2:
No, all do not understand. God was always speaking when Jesus spoke, but there were many who did not understand His parables. Only those that are of God hear His words:

Zeke 37: None understood the parables till Christ told the disciples the meaning of them plainly and privately...without the crowd...
they heard the words legibly from Christ, it was not charismatic utterances that are unintelligible...

"Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

Zeke37: they heard the truth, they did not believe the truth....

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." John 8:46-47

Zeke37:takes them to heart and believes them, or not take them to heart and not believe them, but hear them they did....
.....

I tried to convey that all heard the words in a legible form...it was the Cloven Tongue of Fire of God, spoken by the HOLY SPIRIT, through men's vocal cords...but it was God speaking...the Holy Spirit....and all completely understood the words....some mocked and did not believe the words, but they heard and understood the message as if it was in their very own home dialect...only God can do that, and when God speaks all hear it legibly....

as I said, not all got it or followed it...but they all heard it...

in His service
c

I partially agree with your explanations/clarifications. Yes, unbelievers do sometimes hear what God is saying, but at the same time they do not hear because they simply do not want to hear and in a sense close their ears (minds, hearts) to what God is saying...

"Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." John 8:41-43


They really did hear Jesus' words but they did not receive them.

Similarly in the following verses Jesus clarifies that because the Pharisees were NOT blind that their sin remained. We are not condemned in ignorance. We are condemned because we understand and do not believe what we understand.

"And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." John 9:39-41
 
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amadeus2

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I have a lot to say, but everyone does not hear the same. Although some hear my words, others are listening. To some people I am a blasphemer, but to others Im speaking the truth. I wrote that article to emphasize that truth; That the miracle was in the hearing.
I am hearing you more clearly now, myself. thanks for ther re-run for those of us a bit slower.
 
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amadeus2

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I have had it said to me, that because I don't speak in tongues, that I must not be one of his sheep. And that because I don't have healing powers, I can't be one of his.:scratch:

I have spoken in tongues for over 30 years, but while I appreciate it as God's gift to me, I know that some people who do serve God do not have the gift.

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way." I Cor 12:28-31
 
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amadeus2

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tongues=languages....and the proof that it was God speaking through them was that everyone heard it in their own dialect...as fully described in acts 2...

the charismatic tongue does not do this and is not a gift of God...the whole doctrine is based on a misinterpretation of 1Cor14...

Paul simply was speaking of preaching in one language, and it being interpreted by a multilingual person into another language so that foreigners could receive the Good News...the whole point of Paul's Commission...

I have had the gift of tongues for more than 30 years and make no mistake it is a gift from God. I am also tri-lingual speaking German and Spanish as well as English. learning another human language is not the same as the gift that God has given to some...
 
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zeke37

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I have had the gift of tongues for more than 30 years and make no mistake it is a gift from God. I am also tri-lingual speaking German and Spanish as well as English. learning another human language is not the same as the gift that God has given to some...


If you speak more than one language....it is a gift from God....and the true meaning of the gift of tongues....

and if you use that gift in His service, translating the Gospel to the nations (the Great Commission) then that is absolute proof that the Holy Spirit is there....

ie. there is an English speaking preacher who is giving a sermon to a German speaking audience...now, without a translator...they cannot understand anything....it sounds like barbarian speech to them.....and they do not even know when to say Amen...let alone learn anything....cause they do not understand the English language...

then you translate the English sermon into German (because you are gifted of God) and those German people understand the words and now have a chance to accept the Messiah as their Saviour...and that is the proof that the Holy Spirit is there...when the Germans say AMEN....in other words...when they understand and follow Christ...

because people that formally could not even understand the words of the bible being preached to them, can now here It in their own language and praise God....worship Him....and know when to say Amen....it is no longer barbarian speech because they now know what it means...after the translation....human language to human language...now they can be saved and live forever...

this is how 1Cor14 should be read....IMO

in His service
c
 
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AllTalkNoAction

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If you speak more than one language....it is a gift from God....and the true meaning of the gift of tongues....
What about all those atheists who speak more than one language?

and if you use that gift in His service, translating the Gospel to the nations (the Great Commission) then that is absolute proof that the Holy Spirit is there....
Even in sects that translate to other languages?
 
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amadeus2

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In regards to speaking in tongues: It would be helpful if we could have them make any statement on their behalf. Is it possible to invite any here to defend their position?

Ask your questions. I have been speaking in an unknown tongue since 1976 as a gift from God. Any time I go to prayer privately with the Lord a portion of it is always in tongues which means everyday now. I had learned to speak both Spanish and German through personal and scholastical studies prior to that.

I fear you will not see much on this line of thinking. People who speak in tongues tend to not want to talk about it with those who don't.

I haven't been in your situation and, of course, I cannot speak for most tongue talkers, but I have no problems with talking about it and answering questions. Unlike some, I do not consider tongues as a necessary part of, nor as evidence of receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost, nor do I consider it as essential to salvation.

Personally I don't speak in tongues, but what amazes me is the I Cor 13 scriptures and how somehow it is all tied to love. The problem is that many many people who claim to speak in tongues show a total lack of love and so, the question must be asked, is the tongues they boast of self or HS?

I see at least a couple of answers to your question. It should be no surprise that some people may have learned to talk in tongues rather than having received a gift of tongues from God. Also, even when a person receives a gift from God they still have their own will. Receiving the baptism of Holy Ghost doesn't mean a person cannot sin again and likewise receiving a gift of tongues doesn't make us sinless either. Will God remove one of His gifts from us? I haven't met anyone who alleged losing the Holy Ghost or the gift of tongues, but David's prayer would make me believe that it is possible:

"Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me." Psalm 51:11

On the other hand, I do not see any scriptures indicating that God would definitely always remove His gift from a person if the person sinned or failed to love others. It may be simply as any natural gift that God have bestowed upon us, but due the nature and the purpose of the gifts it may be different. A clean vessel may be necessary before that type of gift God's from God will work.

A number of years ago I backslid badly for a long period of time. During that period I did not speak in tongues, but I also did not pray. When God accepted my repentance and took me back I began praying and the praying in tongues was part of that. Did I lose the gift? I really cannot say.

In the natural a gifted singer may lose his voice because of sin, but we all know that that is not always the case.

Now that question will get me into trouble from both sides and I will be told how I am judging and not understanding and all kinds of other stuff, when in reality I am only posing a question based on the scriptures.

No trouble from me. I want to understand more about God and I want others to understand more about Him. If the Body of Christ is to be one with Jesus as the Head then all of the parts must at some point work together.
 
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shuntmama

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This day has not come to pass as of yet.

Acts 2


1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit., and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


Love in Christ, sarah
 
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