Speaking in tongues.

[MoNiCa4316]

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

On the other thread we are talking about when and what this means, the general consenses is second coming though I am leaning toward resurrection.

I think here Paul is just saying how love never fails, and then goes on to say that our knowledge, prophesies, etc are imperfect but once perfection comes we shall know fully, and the imperfect will disappear....I don't see why this means that people can no longer speak in tongues? If you're right in your interpretation, I still don't see how that could be concluded...since the Resurrection of the Dead hasn't happened yet.

 

[razzelflabben]

I think here Paul is just saying how love never fails, and then goes on to say that our knowledge, prophesies, etc are imperfect but once perfection comes we shall know fully, and the imperfect will disappear....I don't see why this means that people can no longer speak in tongues? If you're right in your interpretation, I still don't see how that could be concluded...since the Resurrection of the Dead hasn't happened yet.

exactly, if the resurrection of the dead hasnt happened yet, then the gifts would still be active and not dead.

 

[razzelflabben]

Oki thanks for the reply I guess in some cases it's indeed a demon. But in my experience there were the fruits of the Spirit, and it has helped me in my relationship with God...wasn't just an 'emotional response'. There were good results. I disagree with you that victory, love, and 'fruits of the Spirit' are no longer identifiable.

I think you misunderstand. I do not believe the victory, love and fruits are no longer identifiable, I believe that many people act as if they are not longer identifiable. In other words, when we put all our emotions or gifts on our understanding of God, we miss the point of God.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

exactly, if the resurrection of the dead hasnt happened yet, then the gifts would still be active and not dead.

I'm a little confused...hmm..do you believe in speaking in tongues? from your previous posts, I got the impression that you did not. Or maybe I just misunderstood..sorry!

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I think you misunderstand. I do not believe the victory, love and fruits are no longer identifiable, I believe that many people act as if they are not longer identifiable. In other words, when we put all our emotions or gifts on our understanding of God, we miss the point of God.

I can agree with that although I don't know how many people act that way. I agree that it's possible though.

What would you say gives us the right understanding of God, so that we don't 'miss the point'?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Personally I don't speak in tongues, but what amazes me is the I Cor 13 scriptures and how somehow it is all tied to love. The problem is that many many people who claim to speak in tongues show a total lack of love and so, the question must be asked, is the tongues they boast of self or HS?

(emphasis mine)

Hi, I agree with the point you're trying to make, but I disagree with the part that's in bold....I know some very loving Pentecostal/Charismatic people..I don't know how they're like where you live, or how many you know. But that seems to be a pretty big generalization, and I'm wondering what you're basing it on.

 

[importunity]

We all need a revelation on love. Weather you are a tongue talker or not. The reason we don't have power in our chruches anymore is we have let our love wax cold.

 

[razzelflabben]

I'm a little confused...hmm..do you believe in speaking in tongues? from your previous posts, I got the impression that you did not. Or maybe I just misunderstood..sorry!

Simple answer yes. More exact answer, I believe that tongues and prophecy etc. are still for the church today, however, very few people much less churches function under the biblical understanding of these gifts, clinging to emotional and non biblical understandings thus abandoning God and the HS in exchange for the emotional "high" they get from such an experience.

BTW, just to further clarify. I do not speak in tongues however, I have prophecied. And therefore I speak from experience as well as from biblical study to understand what was happening as well as what to do with it.

 

[razzelflabben]

I can agree with that although I don't know how many people act that way. I agree that it's possible though.

What would you say gives us the right understanding of God, so that we don't 'miss the point'?

Number 1- a biblical understanding, this is not a justification but rather a true seeking after God. You know the seek the Lord with all your heart, mind, exceedingly kind of seeking. The kind of seeking in which traditions and famous teachers answers don't cut it, instead, you rely on what He says and who He is dispite what you want Him or think you want Him to be.
this then leads to Number 2 a personal relationship in which God speaks and we listen and we speak and God listens. It is praying continually, without ceasing, being in His presence, totally, madly in love with Him and not what He can do or give to us. It is a relationship in which salvation isn't what draws you to him or the gifts or the miracles, but rather God Himself draws you in and captivates you and holds you and entangles you to such a degree that you become one, yeilding to His will and presence because you know that without Him you are nothing. You don't yield because you gain salvation or because He demands it of you, you yeied because He is and that is enough.
and that leads to Number 3, a yielding to Him and His will, like a little child who clings to his parents and trusts them no matter what they say or do. You see Him as the hero and the authority and you cling desperately to Him. You allow Him to transform you and teach you and motivate you like no one else has the right to do. You give yourself freely and willingly to His will because you trust it and know that His desire is for your own good. That even when you don't agree or accept it, you know that He wants only what is best for you, and so you accept His place and purpose and move forward seeking His strength and wisdom.

How's that?

 

[razzelflabben]

(emphasis mine)

Hi, I agree with the point you're trying to make, but I disagree with the part that's in bold....I know some very loving Pentecostal/Charismatic people..I don't know how they're like where you live, or how many you know. But that seems to be a pretty big generalization, and I'm wondering what you're basing it on.

I know many pentecostal/charismatic people who are loving and many who are not, just as I know many non pentecostal/charismatic people who are loving and many who are not. The problem is that if the HS or God however you choose to word it, is the center of the life, the belief,. then it would be reasonable to expect that love would be the rule not the exception. What I have found way far too many times in all who claim to believe, is that love is the exception not the rule. Consider the early church and how they showed love and then show me even one church that is loving in the same way. And that is only one of many examples I can get.

Let me take you even one step further with an actual example. In our community, there is one church that comes close to behaving in a love similar to the early church. This church also has a pastor whose wife has a spiritual issue that causes her to hate without reason. A hatred that isolates her and her family from people she chooses to. It is a hatred that her husband has confided in me that is totally spiritual in nature. Now this problem keeps some from the church and drives others away. And they are one of the few who behave in love.

Now I base this observation on personal experiences, experiences of others we know, discussions on the forum and etc. etc. etc. it goes on and on. Does that answer your question?

 

[zeke37]

Oscar, we have been there and done that...

I have proven it according to scripture...

the charismatic tongue is not even mentioned ever....1Cor14 is about preaching in one language and having a human interpreter, multi-lingual individual that uses his/her ability to translate languages...to further God's plan of the Great Commission...

the early church fathers did not such act as that of the charismatic ecstatic tongue...sorry....and neither did Jesus or any disciples, apostles or Paul....

no matter what your tradition teaches you....


I will gladly discuss your concerns again, if you will not make it personal, and if you keep it scriptural, if you can do these things, we can have a great conversation....

 

[mrguitar]

Oscar...my friend!!!

First of all thanks again for the help with speaking in tongues back in June! I appreciate it. The gift if just awesome!!!

Secondly....Amen to everything you've said on this thread!!!!!!

God Bless you brother!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have a friend who became demonised because some in the Pentecostal church insisted she speak in tongues. Long story short, the "gift" of tongues she recieved was through a demon.

I would be interested in hearing the whole story about that. I have been associated with the Pentecostal church in some way for the last 40 years and I have never heard of anyone being demonised through receiving the gift of tongues.

If you would like to PM me with the full story, then we can look at what happened in detail. Maybe we can get some important clues about it. It may have been a specific incident and not standard right across the spectrum; so it is important that we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater because one or two get demonised by the inappropriate teaching or actions of others.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

A word of warning since you are sooooo into people proving things. I Cor. 13 not only talks about tongues but the ceasation of them as well. Now I agree that many people read this the wrong way, but you are one into proving things in the bible, make sure you understand what you are saying yourself.

Ooooooh I think that after 40 years of being around Pentecostals and studying the Word of God and all the available teaching on these issues both for and against I have come to a pretty reasonable appreciation of it....

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscar, we have been there and done that...

I have proven it according to scripture...

the charismatic tongue is not even mentioned ever....1Cor14 is about preaching in one language and having a human interpreter, multi-lingual individual that uses his/her ability to translate languages...to further God's plan of the Great Commission...

the early church fathers did not such act as that of the charismatic ecstatic tongue...sorry....and neither did Jesus or any disciples, apostles or Paul....

no matter what your tradition teaches you....


I will gladly discuss your concerns again, if you will not make it personal, and if you keep it scriptural, if you can do these things, we can have a great conversation....

From our previous very stimulating debate on these issues, I remember that your Scriptural proof was essentially your own interpretation of 1Cor14. Your interpretation was not backed up by any corroborative evidence that would have supported what you were saying.

For example, what we need to see is an exegesis of 1Cor14 where it talks about tongues and prophecy passing away, by one or two of the earliest church fathers. It is fully accepted that the later church fathers from the fourth century onwards started to believe that tongues and prophecy had passed away because they had largely ceased by then; so they there only commenting on what was actually happening. It would be interesting to research what the church fathers believed were the reasons for tongues and prophecy dying away from early church practice during the second century.

But it is not up to me to have to provide that research evidence, because I am not making any claims, nor am I trying to forcefully teaching people that tongues have passed away and that modern tongues are of the devil as you seem to be doing.

Therefore the burden of proof is on you to prove your assertions.

The reality is, if you cannot prove them beyond all doubt, then most of our readers will simply not believe you, and therefore not see you as a credible Bible expositor.

I have been long enough in the church to see three successive generations of Christians. When I first came to the Lord in a particular church (and I am speaking from a Pentecostal perspective here), tongues, prophecy, healing, casting out of demons were all very prominent in the Sunday night meetings. Of course, the morning meeting was more muted because of the more worshipful and less evangelistic nature of it. This was the first generation of believers in that church that I knew.

25 years later, I went back to a Sunday night service in that church and found that most of the gifts were absent. It was just like going into a evangelical, non Pentecostal service. There was no difference between this service and one that I went to in a Baptist church. This was the effect of the second generation of believers evolving away from the components that the first generation found important.

15 years later, I went back to a Pentecostal church (after spending many years in Baptist churches) and found that this generation of believers did not believe in the exercising of the gifts of the Spirit and had no knowledge of how to use them even if they did! This is the effect of a further evolution through the generations.

In other words, the gifts died away over the course of three generations of Christians.

It is therefore conceivable that the same thing happened to the early church after the Apostles died. Gradually, without the original mentors to guide them in the correct operation of the gifts of the Spirit, successive generations of believers gradually lost the ability to practice them, and finally stopped believing in them altogether.

Now, a survey of the writings of the early church fathers from Clement (a disciple of Paul), through to Augustine (4th Century) might back my theory up. Remember that this is just a theory to show you one possible scenario that might explain why the gifts of the Spirit died out in the early church.

I don't really want to rehash our previous debate. It will only be a repeat of material which did not convince me then, and will not convince me now. To really convince me, you will need to point me to references from the early church fathers that I can look up for myself and evaluate.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscar...my friend!!!

First of all thanks again for the help with speaking in tongues back in June! I appreciate it. The gift if just awesome!!!

Secondly....Amen to everything you've said on this thread!!!!!!

God Bless you brother!

Thank you! I greet your words like a weary, thirsty traveller arriving at an oasis in the desert.

 

[GuardianShua]

 

[razzelflabben]

I would be interested in hearing the whole story about that. I have been associated with the Pentecostal church in some way for the last 40 years and I have never heard of anyone being demonised through receiving the gift of tongues.

If you would like to PM me with the full story, then we can look at what happened in detail. Maybe we can get some important clues about it. It may have been a specific incident and not standard right across the spectrum; so it is important that we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater because one or two get demonised by the inappropriate teaching or actions of others.

I am afraid you would have to talk to her to get the full story, I have heard her entire testimony but that would be second hand, and not as helpful as you would like.

I do have a concern related to the topic however. I heard pentecostal/charismatic people always talk about someone helping them to receive the gift of tongues (a concept that she talks about in her testimony btw) the question is this, if tongues is a gift of God, as given through the HS. why is it necessary to help anyone receive it? We don't need help to receive salvation or prophecy, or and of the fruits or love, why do we need help to receive tongues and there is this concept in the bible? Isn't a gift from God just that, a gift from God?

 

[razzelflabben]

Ooooooh I think that after 40 years of being around Pentecostals and studying the Word of God and all the available teaching on these issues both for and against I have come to a pretty reasonable appreciation of it....

the point here is that according to scripture there is a time of cessation of the gifts and your post did not acknowledge that, in fact, it boast of other. But I can move on if you can, just be warned that there are other people here who have studied it as well and cannot be easily swayed from what the scriptures actually say. The scripture says that tongues will be stilled. The question is not if they will or not, the question is when will that be?

 

[Svt4Him]

the point here is that according to scripture there is a time of cessation of the gifts and your post did not acknowledge that, in fact, it boast of other. But I can move on if you can, just be warned that there are other people here who have studied it as well and cannot be easily swayed from what the scriptures actually say. The scripture says that tongues will be stilled. The question is not if they will or not, the question is when will that be?

It also says knowledge will pass away. Has that happened already? And individual cases are not proof of this.