Speaking in tongues.

[GuardianShua]

a clue hear is that each of the folks from other countries heard them all speak at the same time in their own language, not one after the other, but all at the same time.

so, to test those that claim to speak in tongue's, have handy a few that speak different languages, and when this person speaks in toungue's, each of them should hear in their own tongue.

I agree 100%. That would be a TRUE test of It being truly a miracle.

 

[GuardianShua]

In regards to speaking in tongues: It would be helpful if we could have them make any statement on their behalf. Is it possible to invite any here to defend their position?

 

[razzelflabben]

In regards to speaking in tongues: It would be helpful if we could have them make any statement on their behalf. Is it possible to invite any here to defend their position?

I fear you will not see much on this line of thinking. People who speak in tongues tend to not want to talk about it with those who don't.

Personally I don't speak in tongues, but what amazes me is the I Cor 13 scriptures and how somehow it is all tied to love. The problem is that many many people who claim to speak in tongues show a total lack of love and so, the question must be asked, is the tongues they boast of self or HS?

Now that question will get me into trouble from both sides and I will be told how I am judging and not understanding and all kinds of other stuff, when in reality I am only posing a question based on the scriptures.

 

[stone]

1Jo 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

 

[zeke37]

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke37
I believe that if the "tongues" is heard amongst many different speaking/understanding peoples, and ALL can understand it in their own dialect....it is a true sign and Gift of God....as seen in Acts2

What if those criteria aren't fulfilled, such as in Acts 10:44-18 & Acts 19:1-6?

what was the same in those circumstances? The Holy Spirit was evident....why? Because it was a miracle that happened...they spoke with languages, no interpreter needed because God did the speaking....the Holy Spirit as deinfined in verse44...and the next verse...they were astonished...and they glorified God....this was the same as in Acts 2.... not what we see in the charismatic churches today

and in chapter 19, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and then they prophesied the Word, in languages...all 12 of them...

I hope you do not consider the charismati ecstatic tongue a miracle? I certainly do not...


Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke37
but it is not the only gift, and I do not believe that it is in use at this time, but will be at the witness of the elect at the end of the trib...

So God has selectively done away with some gifts?

this was a miracle....strait from the Mouth of GOD Himself....used to spread the GOSPEL of CHRIST MESSIAH and start the Christian movement....

God was Glorified and the people listening heard the message in languages, plural....became Saved and spread the Gospel to their own lands....

Which ones do we still have, according to your belief?

All of them...1Cr12 tongues = the ability to teach others in another language...multilingualism....a gift of God

and in chapter 12, it is "kinds of tongues" meaning kinds of languages....not a lack of language...or a special prayer langugae of some sort...

and God will again use the same cloven tongue of fire....in the trib whent he elect are delivered up to the son of Perdition for a witness, the final witness before Messiah comes back...

sometimes the word tongues represents the foreign language itself....to us(or me anyway) those would be in, chineese, spanish, polish, german...or in that area at that time was...any dialect of any person that traveled to the church from all over the known world




Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke37
IF a person uses the gift of translation (multilingualism)

What bible do you read ?
I never read that!
The Holy Spirit can and does give interpretation of what is said in gifts of tongues in our meetings.

KJV

Does absolutely everyone in the meetings, understand the words as they are coming out of the tongue talkers mouth? or do they have to wait for human interpretation?

see the point yet? Doesn't line up with Acts does it??? Those in Acts did not need an interpreter because God was speaking....and ALL understand God when He speaks...

and Yes, in 1Cor14, it is all about foreign languages and how we can over come that border....with multi-lingual linguists...and if those people listening, who need the bi-lingual person to interperate....if they praise God, then they understood the message and that is evidence of the Holy Spirit at work.....proof is that the foreigners praised God.....and they themselves cannot read the scriptures or understand the language without an interpreter...

it is not some hidden prayer language or extra message from God....not at all...that is the deception....

But the people giving that aren't translating, they didn't understand what it said in tongues.

where? the biblical accounts? or your meetings?

if you mean the bible accounts I completely disagree with you interpretation, if you mean you gatherings...then what can i say but told ya so.....

if everyone does not understand the so called message when it is spoken, without interpretation, then it is not directly from God....cannot be, cause everyone understands when God speaks...might not believe, but all hear and understand....

if the speaker doesn't get it....then it aint from God....

If a bi-lingual person translates a language they understand that's no miracle, no "gift of the Holy Spirit".

it is proof that the Holy Spirit is working because the gifted multi-linguist is using His gift for the betterment of the children of God....in His Will.....

and foreigners will now be able to hear, understand, accept the Lord, and be Saved....so the Holy Spirit is at work there for sure....proof is in the pudding, which in this case would be the foreigners praising God and the Son....

and that is the point....of 1Cor14.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke37
to help others (foreign speaking and hearing people) hear the gospel and get a chance to accept Christ as Messiah...then that is proof of the Holy Spirit working, breaking language barriers...(1Cor14) tongues=glossa=languages...

The gospel message went to all nations that the bi-lingual jews in jerusalem at pentecost came from without anyone having to be given any miraculous abilities. They just took it when they went back home!

Dude...there was a definite miracle at Pentecost.....

The people listening understood the language that came out of the speakers mourths as that of their very own county/dialect/region....no matter where they were from...so then they took the truth back with them and spread the Gospel to their people...Passover...

God provided....

I believe that you are misunderstanding me because of your question....

Your doctrine that tongues was for preaching the gospel is completely false. It's the Holy Spirit leading people in prayer according to God's perfect will for them.

lol, you could never prove that, plus we have scripture to prove you wrong.....

that is a pure nonsense tradition of man, which has no scriptural support, except that which is twisted to fit ones pre conceived ideas and beliefs......

absolutely wrong friend...


1Co:14:2: For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God

you do not know what this means, you think it is a positive??? This is a negative friend....

if you speak in a foreign (unknown) tongue that no one in the audience understands, then no one can understand you and you'd be only preaching to God and the angels because they can understand all languages......and that is not what needs to be done...

He (and His angels) know it all already....we are to spread the Message of the Good News to the whole world....past language barriers...otherwise those people would not even know when to say AMEN...it would sound like barbarians speaking to them....

you may follow a doctrine derived from 1Cor14, but it is from a misunderstanding....



Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke37
I hope I made my position cear...

You are a natural man, twisting and ignoring scripture because you don't like the idea that you havn't actually received the new life.

Are you judgine me my so called Brother? I received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but I am not a tongue talker because it is of evil origins....seen it, been there, totally defy it, 100%...not of God, no matter what you mind wants to believe....emotional response and fueled from your own desires and your own thoughts....

not that the people caught up in it are evil, but deceived by evil pretending to be Light....

that is why we are to "test the spirits"

it is one of the devil's biggest tricks...



Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke37
the ecstatic charismatic tongue is not a gift of God.......
in His service
c

I dunno what you mean "ecstatic", another non-biblical confusion you are introducing.

try a gogle search....you probably know what I mean, but are offended by the word ecstatic....

The "gospel" that you can receive God's Spirit and not speak in tongues, unlike ALL Jesus disciples, Jew and Gentile, is definately not of God.

have at it then friend....you will find out in the end that you are completely mistaken and have been whistling dixie instead of praying...

and you are mixing up teachings from Acts and 1Cor14 and trying to say that your prayer language is the same thing that happened in Acts...

so you apply the same rules to 1Cor14 as you do to Acts....

in Acts, they spoke the Cloven Tongue Of Fire, which was the Holy Spirit speaking through those election....

you (your doctrine) have turned a teaching of how to use linguists to spread the Gospel to the people, avoiding confusion, in an orderly way....so that the foreign speaking/understanding people will indeed get it and know when to say Amen, and glorify God.......

into...


some secret prayer language that no one understands.....

or

a secret message from God, where only one understands and must tell the others....

can't you seriously see a problem with this practise?

Anyone could sy anything.....and you'd believe it....

it could be from the man's/woman's own head, or worse...a con man's agenda...or even worse...demonic activity...as they do exist......

your practise actually sounds a little like King Saul's experience.....perhaps you should look into that....

You are certainly not "in His service" by promoting it.

I am doing what I have been led to do...reproof all things with scripture....correct those who need it and learning myself along the way....

many who need edification, do not accept the edification....like getting an addict off of drugs....

it can happen though...


pre trib and tongues...the two biggest tricks of the devil....but if you want it, God'll give it to ya....deception that is....


or you can read the entire chapter, together instead of slicing it apart and taking it out of context, and then realize your error and come out of the dark side, over to the Light...

and that is for sure....
in His service
c

 

[MoNiCa4316]

In regards to speaking in tongues: It would be helpful if we could have them make any statement on their behalf. Is it possible to invite any here to defend their position?

I've been reading this thread for a while...I speak in tongues, but not very often. I don't go to a Pentecostal church. However I do believe it's a genuine gift of the Holy Spirit. It can be used as a prayer language, or in church, but if it's used in church there must be an interpreter and not many people should speak at once.
I think that on Pentecost, they indeed spoke in different languages...but then in Corinthians Paul says that those who speak in tongues speak mysteries to God. I think that it could be both ways. Sure, some people fake it and maybe in some cases it's purely emotional or even demonic...but if it has a good effect on the person, brings them closer to God, and if there are the 'fruits of the Spirit', it's reasonable to think it's from Him. Just my two cents
God bless.

monica

 

[Nadiine]

I've been reading this thread for a while...I speak in tongues, but not very often. I don't go to a Pentecostal church. However I do believe it's a genuine gift of the Holy Spirit. It can be used as a prayer language, or in church, but if it's used in church there must be an interpreter and not many people should speak at once.
I think that on Pentecost, they indeed spoke in different languages...but then in Corinthians Paul says that those who speak in tongues speak mysteries to God. I think that it could be both ways. Sure, some people fake it and maybe in some cases it's purely emotional or even demonic...but if it has a good effect on the person, brings them closer to God, and if there are the 'fruits of the Spirit', it's reasonable to think it's from Him. Just my two cents
God bless.

monica

I like how balanced your posts are - I dont' argue that there's no tongues or anything like that - I just can't figure out why people are so obsessed with this gift over and above all others.
Why doesn't anyone focus on the gift of healing? or gift of prophecy? or mercies?
It baffles me

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I like how balanced your posts are - I dont' argue that there's no tongues or anything like that - I just can't figure out why people are so obsessed with this gift over and above all others.
Why doesn't anyone focus on the gift of healing? or gift of prophecy? or mercies?
It baffles me...

I agree, sometimes people focus too much on things like that..when really we should just focus on following Christ and loving Him...and we should not forget about the more edifying gifts of the Spirit. By the way, there are people who are obsessed about prophesy too, there are just not that many of them I think the reason people become so focused on speaking in tongues is because sometimes it can be a very intense/emotional experience..sometimes people receive revelations from God or feel His presence while speaking...so they remember that, and it becomes a significant part of their life. Which is fine, I think, as long as they dont' neglect the rest of their faith. Like anything else, it's only a good thing if it brings someone closer to God...and if it doesn't, it can potentially become dangerous.

 

[GuardianShua]

I've been reading this thread for a while...I speak in tongues, but not very often. I don't go to a Pentecostal church. However I do believe it's a genuine gift of the Holy Spirit. It can be used as a prayer language, or in church, but if it's used in church there must be an interpreter and not many people should speak at once.
I think that on Pentecost, they indeed spoke in different languages...but then in Corinthians Paul says that those who speak in tongues speak mysteries to God. I think that it could be both ways. Sure, some people fake it and maybe in some cases it's purely emotional or even demonic...but if it has a good effect on the person, brings them closer to God, and if there are the 'fruits of the Spirit', it's reasonable to think it's from Him. Just my two cents
God bless.

monica

This is what Stone had posted earlier: A clue hear is that each of the folks from other countries heard them all speak at the same time in their own language, not one after the other, but all at the same time.

so, to test those that claim to speak in tongue's, have handy a few that speak different languages, and when this person speaks in toungue's, each of them should hear in their own tongue.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Hi MichaelTheeArchAngel, but I don't think that speaking in tongues is always earthly languages...what you described happened at Pentecost, but my point is that since Paul said that speaking in tongues is 'speaking mysteries to God', it can include unknown languages also.

 

[GuardianShua]

Hi MichaelTheeArchAngel, but I don't think that speaking in tongues is always earthly languages...what you described happened at Pentecost, but my point is that since Paul said that speaking in tongues is 'speaking mysteries to God', it can include unknown languages also.

1 Corinthians 14
Gifts of Prophecy and Tongues
1. Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3. But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

 

[GuardianShua]

I prefer being called: Michael. I don't like my poster name, but Im stuck with it for now.

 

[mrguitar]

Let me just say this...lol...

Speaking in tongues is as real as anything else God does. I used to be Methodist, now I'm Pentecostal and Holy Ghost filled! In fact...I'm the ONLY Pentecostal in my entire family. lol

If y'all have any questions to ask about speaking in tongues...Go right ahead and ask away.

 

[GuardianShua]

Let me just say this...lol...

Speaking in tongues is as real as anything else God does. I used to be Methodist, now I'm Pentecostal and Holy Ghost filled! In fact...I'm the ONLY Pentecostal in my entire family. lol

If y'all have any questions to ask about speaking in tongues...Go right ahead and ask away.

Did you read posts in number #6 and #7 before posting?

 

[mrguitar]

Did you read posts in number #6 and #7 before posting?

Actually no I did not. Do you have questions or comments? Just wonderin' so I can help people understand speaking in tongues.

 

[zeke37]

well, you may wanna catch up first, so you can see our position....

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

My study bible says that what is written after Mark 16:8 came at a later date. And that the oldest books of Mark don't go beyond verse #8.My bible says that it's those who keep the commandments.

Be that as it may; the important thing to consider is that if the verses were added after Mark originally wrote his gospel, they could have been added by Mark himself in a later edition that the person who copied the manuscript that our Bible is based on, or that it was inserted by people who certainly believed in what the verse stated. Just because it was inserted later, doesn't mean that it is not true. The very fact that the Bible scholars compiling the Biblical canon in the 4th Century certainly believed that the verses were the inspired Word of God, otherwise they would have left them out, wouldn't they?

I don't know the date of the earliest manuscript that contains the disputed verses. If it dated back to the end of the First Century, or even in the Second Century, then the Christians of those times certainly believed that part of believing in Christ was the ability to speak in 'new tongues'. That cannot be disputed.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

From Khouse.org:
Among the disputed passages are the final verses of the Gospel of Mark (16:9-20). (Look in your own Bible: you are likely to find an annotation that these were "added later.")
The insistence that Mark's Gospel ends at 16:8 leaves the women afraid and fails to record the resurrection, Christ's final instructions, and the Ascension. It is understandable why these verses are an embarrassment to the Gnostics, and why Westcott and Hort would advocate their exclusion, and insist that they were "added later."
However, it seems that Irenaeus in 150 A.D., and also Hypolytus in the 2nd century, each quote from these disputed verses, so the documentary evidence is that they were deleted later in the Alexandrian texts, not added subsequently.)
But there is even more astonishing evidence for their original inclusion that is also profoundly instructive for broader reasons.

Excellent observation!! That evidence would stand up in a court of law to prove that believers really did have the ability to speak in new tongues in the early church. It is backed up by two really solid and respected witnesses. The Scripture says "in the mouths of two or three witnesses let every word be established." I am convinced by these two witnesses that the disputed verses did form part of the inspired Word of God. I don't believe the more modern scholars who through their unbelief try to discount the verses. What they are saying is that two of the most important and respected early church fathers were wrong. I know who I would believe - certainly not our modernistic scholars, that's for sure.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

His return is 2011 May 21 2011 most likely to be the rapture of the true believers.

The Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons, and the Seventh Day Adventists have all tried to give a date to the Lord's 2nd coming and they have all ended up with egg on their faces.

There is only one Person who knows when the second coming will take place, and that is God the Father. Not even Jesus knows when that will be.

Therefore, in the light of that, if God the Father hasn't revealed it, then there is only one person (who incidently owns a pitchfork) who has given out this false information to deceive people and get them off the track of whats really important.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Back then, the message of Salvation was almost strictly confined to the Israelites (possibly a few non Israelites who lived in the area)

if a foreign speaking person worships God, then that is a sign and proof of the Holy Spirit.... cause God has effectively broken the language barrier...and it is evident that a foreigner understands and proclaims the Lord....which he/she will bring back to their homes.....spreading the Gospel...the great Commission.

there is no such charismatic tongue in scripture....it is a complete misunderstanding of 1Cor14....which is almost impossible to see if you are involved in the charismatic tongue movement....

they are hooked with what they think is Holiness and the presence of God, but in reality, God says nothing that is confusing....nothing that cannot be understood....and if we were to test that spirit, it fails...it just is not from God...

when God speaks ALL understand....

1Cor14 is simply speaking of human bilingual/multilingual people who can spread the Gospel message to the other foreign speaking people....

with a translator, a Hebrew speaking person could teach a Chinese person...etc....

in His service
c

Now, you will prove the truth of what you say through the direct teaching of Scripture, and backed up by the teaching of the principal early church fathers. If they back up your statements then there is credibility in them. But you need to give actual quotes and references so we can check them.

If you cannot back your claims up with good evidence, then we must see your views as complete speculation bordering on fantasy and fiction.