speaking in tongues?

[rapturefish]

Originally posted by jesusbball23
1 Corinthians 13:8 - gifts will cease...

-Actually the gifts ceased already. When the Apostles who were the ONLY people who can even pass down the gifts (read all through Acts, and you will see what I mean) to other disciples died, and when the people who were given the gifts by the apostles died, that's when the gifts ceased.

Hi Jesusbball,

Actually if you read that chapter Paul is saying that the most excellent way is LOVE, and that without love any spiritual gift is just plain useless. Even if we spoke in the tongues of men and of angels (this is hyperbole but not without truth in it I believe), could move mountains by faith, could reveal all mysteries by prophecy, etc. it's useless without love.

He goes on to say that Love is the most important gift because when PERFECTION comes the iperfect disappears. What he means is that right now we do not see God face to face. In this day and age, as was then we do not live in the "perfection" Paul is speaking about because we do not see God perfectly without our human foibles getting in the way. We have tongues, we have prophecy, faith, miracles, mercy, etc. and these are all gifts by which the church is edified and these gifts reveal something of God to us as we use them. But it's not perfect.

When perfection comes we won't need tongues, prophecy, etc. We don't need hope or faith even because when we are face to face with God we can be with him and communicate him and Know Him without needing to use tongues, prophecy, etc. Faith is met; Hope is fulfilled. Only Love remains because God is Love.

People have used 1 Corinthians 13:8 to justify the position that spiritual gifts have ceased, believing that "perfection" was the bible canon being completed. But if you read it in that context then you'd have to say that now that perfection has been reached, NONE of the bible applies anymore. If you discount spiritual gifts on that passage you'll have to discount everything else in it!

Even cessationist arguments today no longer consider this passage valid. So just to let you know, if you believe spiritual gifts have ceased, don't use this passage.

blessings,

 

[rapturefish]

Originally posted by Knight
I attend a growing Bible preaching church. God's glory is present and felt in this body. We have grown at a phenomonal rate in the past several years and most of this has been through conversion. This was done through the power of the blood of Jesus Christ to change lives. That is the real miracle. Not healing or speaking in tongues but the power of God's diving grace.

That's great news Knight it's great to hear about churches growing. And I would agree that one of the greatest miracles is seeing lost people find Jesus when they surrender themselves to Him. And this would be true whether people believe or have spiritual gifts or not.

I think one common reason people who don't see a lot of evidence of people speaking in tongues while others do has to do with the kind of church paradigm they live in. If you either do not believe in spiritual gifts being for today, or if you say you believe but in practice your church has little practical emphasis or belief in its experiential reality then one will not be giving much openness for the Holy Spirit to work in people.

Because one who is in such a situation is surrounded by people who similarly do not practically (as opposed to theoretically) believe it is something that is for today, the occurrences of it happening are very rare. And even if someone does have this gift, it is very taboo to even let people know because people fear "experience"(=putting feelings above the bible), "emotionalism"(=putting feelings above the bible) or simply something weird. They won't likely let anyone know.

I thought no-one spoke in tongues at my previous church until I shared about my spiritual language with a friend and he told me privately his Dad did but he never told anyone about it!

Tongues is an evidence of, and closely tied with the Holy Spirit infilling. If you speak in tongues it means you have been Spirit-filled. If you don't, we don't know, but probably not. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell in the life of every new christian. But once we let him in, not everyone asks for the Holy Spirit to fill us. This is seen in Ephesians 5:18, where Paul is exhorting the christians in Ephesus to be (the use of the word "be" here indicates a continual present tense) filled continually with the Spirit.

Being Spirit-filled is the experiential reality of God's presence in you. And often it is accompanied by tongues, which is a prayer language. You may wonder how this edifies the church if it's a private language. I believe there may be either more than one kind of tongue or more than one application of the same tongue, I'm not sure. The kind of tongue used in the church is, like the other gifts, something the Spirit prompts people to share with the church as He chooses.

A person who is prompted to give a tongue in church will speak, and someone else should have the intderpretation and this together encourages the body. If a person is prompted by the Spirit to give a word of prophecy in the church they will give it and the body is also encouraged. Unlike a superpower such use of spiritual gifts is prompted by the spirit, and person who has such a gift is regularly prompted and used by the Spirit in that way.

But there is the private prayer language (and 1 Corinthians 12-14 does allow for this) which is a different application or thing. I see it as one more way in which we ourselves are edified so that we in turn edify others. We have devotionals, prayer, worship in song and bible study for our own private spiritual nourishment. With tongues we are built up in our spirit; with tongues we are able to praise and pray where words are hard to find or we don't know how to pray for someone or something so the Spirit prays through us what we cannot put in known words.

There is both a faith element on our part and a divine element on God's part for us to be released in the spiritual gifts. Like salvation, we need to believe that God is real and he loves us, he can save us and if we take a step of faith He will do so. With spiritual gifts, if we do not believe the Spirit gives them then we won't ask. If we ask we need to be convinced of the supernatural reality of God and really believe that if we do ask that he will give gifts as he delights (Luke 11:11-13). but it's up to God as to when and what gifts he gives as he is the Giver.

For the last time I have never denied the possibility of these gifts. I have simply stated that we should be careful when ascribing these gifts to someone as they can and have been used by false teachers. I was never "burned" by any of these people. I simply understand human nature and it's capacity to pervert and distort God's Word. [/B]

I do agree with you here. The "Word of Faith" movement is one common example of what happens when gifts are misused and spiritual abuse occurs. I have yet to hear anything good about this movement, but I differ slightly in your opinion in that I believe that the Spirit does release gifts to all christians and takes the risk that we may misuse those gifts. The church in Corinth was one prime example of a church that was morally quite wayward yet rich in spiritual gifts.

I believe the Word of Faith movement does or did have spiritual power but it has been misused and discouraged many from even touching the subject of spiritual gifts. This is very sad as I believe that while those who have spiritual gifts are not better or more holy or anything compared to those who do not, the added dimension of spiritual power and spirit-filled life that spiritual gifts give is missed out on.

blessings,

 

[rapturefish]

For some reason too, spiritual gifts may also be released in other christians when christians lay hands on them and pray that they may receive the gift. I know for myself that I had prayed for months to receive the gift of tongues but didn't receive it. Then at one conference they asked for people who wanted to receive to come up the front and someone laid their hand on me as we tried to sing in the Spirit with those who could.

Nothing happened.

Went home, was having a shower and decided I'd try and say something. And out it came, these syllables of spiritual language, natural as singing. I'm glad it happened this way because then I could not put it down to the mood or emotions of the occasion or to any peer pressure because I was at home by myself in a rather normal emotional state.

In fact, that was how the first Pentecostal began to speak - a group of students plus Charles F. Parham were praying to receive the gift and no-one could. Then one woman asked someone to pray for her to receive the gift by laying hands on her and she began to speak!

I don't know why, but that is the experience. I hear that is the more common way in which it is released but I don't know whether that's true or not.

blessings,

 

[Omaha-gal]

I understand the verses in 1Corinthians 12 and 13 chapters,
to be encouragement for us to seek God
for going deeper into the things of God. 

i convey my thoughts in a peaceful, loving casual manner, not wishing to appear coarse or demanding.

So, i have a question about the part that says,
' when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part
( not completed yet) shall be done away.
my understanding is this, that Holy Spirit Who is the Comforter, our Teacher and dwells in us, has always been perfect, and will never be taken away from us if we do not blaspheme Him, and He has not been taken from the Earth, or you and i would not be here.

and so, i do not understand a certain idea -circulated thru centuries perhaps, a man-made absolute, that the gift of tongues is not valid or given anymore.

so were the gifts done away with when the last apostle died? where's the absolute Biblical proof of that assumption? because it is a belief based on man's assumption.

it is a God-breathed truth that, The Holy Spirit of God is Perfect and active in the Body of Christ on earth.
it is true that new believers are being added daily by the power of the Holy Spirit, to the body of Christ, and are receiving the Holy Spirit.

to say the apostles were the only privileged few to receive the gifts, is wrong teaching of the scriptures.
were there not many believers in that room on Pentecost,
who were filled and spoke with other tongues? the growth of the early church grew very rapidly, thru the spreading of the Gospel,with the signs and wonders that followed.
the same is still true today.

believe me, i am not putting anyone down or shouting down anyone's previous posts here. they all have been helpful.

i believe - due to 27 years of being redeemed, born-again, water and Spirit baptized,
thru personal spiritual experiences, with several of the gifts manifesting in diverse situations, that praying in tongues in my prayer closet, where ever i am prompted by Holy Spirit,
makes the devil mad, cuz he cannot manipulate, tempt, distract or corrupt me during those times. the firey darts bounce off me.

Thou O Lord are a shield about me.

i certainly dont know all there is to know. He alone has proven to me, they are a part of my life in Him. they are to be used to edify and build up the Body, to glorify Him.


i feel personally that one main reason for the cause of division
and mis-understanding in churches, and prevention of true Bible leaders teaching the whole Word, is the devil tries hard to discredit the Holy Spirit's power on Earth, to manipulate us with false teachings, distorting the Truth anyway he can, to prevent the Lord's people from realizing the power of God.

so make the devil shut up, and pray pray pray in the Spirit eveyday.

Jesus is Lord! Shalom.

 

[jayebrownlee]

Thank you Omaha-gal, I had always wondered why we had the gift of tongues, and although i never for a second denied that there would be one, I just didn't know what it was, well now I know of one, and I think it is a fantastic one.

Your sister in Christ

Jay

 

[jesusbball23]

there was a purpose to Spiritual Gifts of the Holy Spirit, mainly to get unbelievers to know God's message is real. I will try my best to get some scriptures to show in the near weekend if possible.

 

[jayebrownlee]

I know that the gifts were often about confirmation, however I also think that the gifts of the spirit have more practical uses, eg the gift of healing makes people better and the gift of prphecy allows people to learn about the future and gain a better understanding of what God wants.

 

[rapturefish]

Originally posted by jayemcintyre
I know that the gifts were often about confirmation, however I also think that the gifts of the spirit have more practical uses, eg the gift of healing makes people better and the gift of prphecy allows people to learn about the future and gain a better understanding of what God wants.

Hi Jaye,

Yes, one purpose of the spiritual gifts was to accompany the message and confirm the power of God with it. This applied to both the Jews and then the Gentiles.

Another purpose however was the edification and building up of the church. From 1 Corinthians we see a church that was exhorted to excel in gifts that built up the church - whenever anyone had a tongue, a word, a prophecy, etc. they were to share it in the church setting in such a way that everyone could understand it and be encouraged.

The power of the gospel is Jesus saves us. Jesus fills that gap in our lives and we are connected to the divine purpose of the Kingdom. People are healed of the life without God. And when people are healed physically and emotionally it also frees them to live the christian life without it becoming a burden.

Another purpose is in the area of God's will. Sometimes we have a decision before us that we cannot decide and sometimes God will speak to us specifically in regard to that decision. Other times, God warns us and protects us by speaking to us. Other times he rebukes our hearts so that we may confess and be healed of our sins.

The gifts of the Spirit are ways in which God's Spirit works through us to love God and love others.

blessings,

 

[Hishandmaiden]

Sorry if I offended anyone by my speech, but because of certain circumstances that happen in my life, I am now pretty sketical that all spiritual gifts come from God.

I became a Christian.
I received the gift of tongues and used it.
I read a new age book but thought it was a christian book.
I invited evil spirits into my life, thinking they are the Christian God.
I worship them.
All these whiles, I can still speak in tongues.

I have my doubts about the evil spirits, after some sensible comments by kind Christian that tell me that the voices that speak to me are from demons, not God.
But the evil spirits keep telling me that they are God.
Unsure, I test them with the gift of tongues. Since the gift of tongues come from God, it must be true.
I said, if the evil spirits is really God, then let my volume increase while I am praying in tongues. My volume did increase. I believe once again that the evil spirits are God because of that.

But now that I am free, and thinking back on it all, I feel a heavy sense of unease when speaking in tongues. I do not think mine is the gift of tongues, but rather it is a spiritual deception by the devil.

It is also my belief that many people in this world, today are also under the same spiritual deception I was under.

How to tell if a gift was from God or not?
I believe, the answer is to look at the fruit of the spiritual gifts.
If the fruit is good, it is from God.
If not, it is spiritual deception.

 

[Andrew]

Unsure, I test them with the gift of tongues. Since the gift of tongues come from God, it must be true.

Huh? You should test things with the Word of God. No where in the Bible does it say we use tongues to test things. Pagans/devil worshippers can speak in "tongues" too.

I said, if the evil spirits is really God, then let my volume increase while I am praying in tongues.

Huh? Never put out a fleece or the devil might just oblige.

But now that I am free, and thinking back on it all, I feel a heavy sense of unease when speaking in tongues. I do not think mine is the gift of tongues, but rather it is a spiritual deception by the devil.

That's just the devil discouraging you sister. Were you born again when you asked God for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with tongues ala Acts 2? If you were and asked for the Spirit, why would God give you a scorpion or snake?

If it was of the devil, you'd know it cos you wldnt be able to control it (demonic possession). And you wont rem what took place etc.

 

[jesusbball23]

How do you explain the apostles only being able to give spiritual gifts to others...read all through acts.

 

[jayebrownlee]

Sorry jesusbball23, who was that question directed to?

 

[jesusbball23]

to those who believe in spiritual gifts

 

[jayebrownlee]

Well I will endevour to answer that soon, but I will need to go and actually look at acts, do you have any suggestions as to particular passages that you think I should concentrate on.

Your sister in Christ

Jay

 

[Andrew]

How do you explain the apostles only being able to give spiritual gifts to others...read all through acts.

It's ultimately Jesus/Holy Spirit who gives gifts to the church, not the Apostles or anyone else.

Eph 4:8* Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

1 Cor 12: 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;......etc

 

[Hishandmaiden]

I was baptised when I was under demonic oppression, before I was really born again.
Now that I am born again, I was baptised in the past, and do not know how to be baptised the second time for real.

 

[rapturefish]

Originally posted by rpggal
Sorry if I offended anyone by my speech, but because of certain circumstances that happen in my life, I am now pretty sketical that all spiritual gifts come from God.

I became a Christian.
I received the gift of tongues and used it.
I read a new age book but thought it was a christian book.
I invited evil spirits into my life, thinking they are the Christian God.
I worship them.
All these whiles, I can still speak in tongues.

I have my doubts about the evil spirits, after some sensible comments by kind Christian that tell me that the voices that speak to me are from demons, not God.
But the evil spirits keep telling me that they are God.
Unsure, I test them with the gift of tongues. Since the gift of tongues come from God, it must be true.
I said, if the evil spirits is really God, then let my volume increase while I am praying in tongues. My volume did increase. I believe once again that the evil spirits are God because of that.

But now that I am free, and thinking back on it all, I feel a heavy sense of unease when speaking in tongues. I do not think mine is the gift of tongues, but rather it is a spiritual deception by the devil.

It is also my belief that many people in this world, today are also under the same spiritual deception I was under.

How to tell if a gift was from God or not?
I believe, the answer is to look at the fruit of the spiritual gifts.
If the fruit is good, it is from God.
If not, it is spiritual deception.

It's hard to know the whole situation just from your post, but some points:

- Satan's power is a weak counterfeit of God's power because Satan was created by God and the power that Satan has came originally from God. Therefore sometimes the supernatural effects that come from Satan will appear similar to the effect of God's power. This may not be the case with you, but just to point out, it has been heard that sometimes when people let Satan have influence over them they can speak in a tongue or be healed, etc. but there may not be a sense of peace about the person.

- Christians cannot have their salvation taken away, but if they allow the devil a foothold he can still have a measure of influence over them. Some people suffer from the effects of the sin of previous generations and they need to say no to it and call on the authority of Jesus to cast the evil spirits out. Other people have a sin/s in their lives and it lets the devil have something to hold onto and influence the person. That person needs to discover the source of it (a sin or even an object), and get rid of it and pray for Jesus to cleanse them and take authority.

- Just because an evil spirit may come doesn't mean you will automatically lose your spiritual gift. There are teachers who have a great spiritual gift of teaching but commit adultery. They don't lose their gifting once they sin. I guess God could possibly take it away sometimes but he desires to give good gifts to his children and being gifts he doesn't let you have them only if you're good. When we misuse our spiritual gifts it makes the Holy Spirit sad, and it's God who gets the embarassment. But that is the risk and trust he places in us.

- You've answered your own question in a way. If the tongue did produce good spiritual fruit before in line with God's word then it is from God. But the book you read possibly allowed an evil spirit to come into your life and you need to deal with that. Ask someone to pray for you against that evil spirit, burn that book, confess any sins you have in your life and turn away from them, call on Jesus to take authority over those parts of your life.

Hope that helps,

 

[rapturefish]

Evil spirits can lie, but ask them to declare that Jesus is Lord and they are forced to reveal their true colours. They cannot stand the authority of the name of Jesus.

One more thing - do not despise or disbelieve in spiritual gifts because of your experience. You need to sort out just what is going on in your case. The bible says to eagerly desire spiritual gifts, and do not forbid speaking in tongues; Paul wishes that everyone could speak in tongues. It seems that there is an evil influence at work trying to discourage and lie to you about spiritual gifts. But it is worth checking to see just where the tongues you have actually comes from. A more mature christian who practices spiritual gifts may help you there.

blessings,

 

[rapturefish]

Originally posted by jesusbball23
How do you explain the apostles only being able to give spiritual gifts to others...read all through acts.

To take the account of Acts you would do well to look at other places where spiritual gifts are mentioned, e.g. 1 Corinthians 12-14, etc. As has been said before, it the Holy Spirit that gives these gifts, not the Apostles. Nowhere does it say that you have to be an apostle to receive spiritual gifts - it is only a conclusion drawn from specific cases in the text of Acts. And there are few cases mentioned in Acts about the passing on of gifts - and we should be careful about making conclusions based on circumstances in the bible.

Now Acts does mention the laying on of hands in Samaria by Peter. But on the seven (including Stephen) they were merely prayed for to be commissioned to wait on tables. There is nothing to say that their laying on of hands resulted in spiritual gifts - and besides, you don't need spiritual gifts to wait on tables! nowhere does it actually say that only an apostle could do this. Even Acts 8:18 does not say that, only that it was what Simon the Sorceror observed in this case.

In 1 Corinthians Paul describes the use of spiritual gifts as a normal part of the life of the church. He speaks of the church as being the body of Christ, and that every part of the body is to work together and he speaks about this in light of spiritual gifts. He mentions in 1 Cor.12:27-31 that God has appointed some people not just to be apostles but teachers, miracle workers, people who have healing gifts, etc. Nothing in the bible suggests that anything has changed from then to now about the need for the church to share its gifts of he Spirit and work together.

There is no mention at all that the gifts will one day no longer be needed. What Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 12-14 applied then and it applies now. No-one argues that chapter 13 has no relevance anymore. So why do we feel differently about spiritual gifts in Ch.12 & 14?

Why does Paul say to eagerly desire spiritual gifts? Why does Paul wish everyone could speak in tongues? He says do not forbid the gift. When he mentions the kind of people he appoints in the church in 1 Cor.12:27-31 prophets are mentioned above teachers. Does this not say something is very important about prophecy that is even above the role of teacher? Then why would anything be different now?

There are people who were not apostles who had spiritual gifts - see Mark 9:38-39 and you will see someone who did not have any connection to the apostles yet he could drive out demons in Jesus' name. And in Acts 9 it was Ananias who laid hands on Paul and imparted healing to Paul - and Ananias wasn't an apostle. If you read Acts you'll find all kinds of people doing miracles and being filled with the Holy Spirit, and not all of them did so after having hands laid on them by an apostle. I don't think you can conclude exclusively that this is the only way to receive a spiritual gift.

blessings,

 

[Hishandmaiden]

Well, everyone who readf my post, I tell you: I am confident once again that my gift6 of tongues come from God, and not evil spirits. I went to my first church yesterday, and I remenbered the time when I was first a Christian. I remenbered this was a gift that comes from God.