Speaking in Tongues- did all in the NT do it?

[Highland Watchman]

Refrus--

Yes, some people claim that "all" should speak in tongues but I notice that the Bible DOESN'T say this. No, not ALL spoke in tongues. The Apostle Paul said that we need charity (LOVE) which is the most important. And Tongues is the least of the gifts!

Also, I have a friend that thinks that if a person doesn't speak in tongues then they get the Holy Spirit than they arn't saved. This is a cult religion and again not biblical. God gives people the Holy Spirit is various ways and its not regulated to a man made wall.

Yes! Someone actually got it!! It was missed, though, amid the rest of the debate.

Consider: Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Paul asks these same questions when he asks Do all speak in tongues? (this is found in 1 Corinthians 12:29) And this after lambasting those who thought themselves better than their brothers because they felt they had an extra anointing. (in this case, ecstatic speech...)

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but I do not have love, I am nothing but a resounding gong or clanging cymbal... in other words, just a useless noisemaker.

It's the same thing if an Evangelist were to insist that you do not have the Holy Spirit if you do not meet a certain salvation quota, or an apostle insisting on seeing proof of successful church plants before being welcomed into the Kingdom. I have seen such arrogance before, it is nothing new.

Love never fails, but where there are tongues, they will be silenced. I know people who have the gift of tongues, and I appreciate them as brothers and sisters, but we have an understanding that just because I am an eye and they are a tongue, neither of us has to change to adopt their gifts, or seek to adopt their gifts, just to be welcome into the Kingdom of God.

But wait - is not tongues a sign of the Holy Spirit? It can be... for some... but I prefer to look for these signs of the Holy Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. THESE are the true signs that a person has the Holy Spirit.

If tongues was the proof that the person has the Holy Spirit, or that they have graduated to a higher level of spirituality, then the majority of Christianity has been disqualified (if they do not mimmick those telling them to do so), while Buddhist monks, Sunni Muslims, and shamanist tribes, as well as Wicca practitioners are welcomed as having the Holy Spirit... Also, the ancient cult of Aphrodite was known for having the temple prostitutes uttering in ecstatic speech. Perhaps they have the Holy Spirit also, and thus must be saved! Something in that doesn't sit right with me.

As for those who will through that Mark 18 business around... saying that we will cast out demons and speak in tongues as the signs that we represent God, I have two things to point out.

First, if you keep reading, it also says that we will not die from poisonous snake bites or drinking poison. If you are so insistent on using that verse, buy a bottle of ammonia bleach, drink it down, then tell me in the morning how it went.

Second, look at Matthew 7:21-23... It is not in prophesies or miraculous signs, but in obedience to the LORD that we are recognized.

Sola Gratia, not Sola Glossalalia.

Besides, I don't think that Jesus will ask us at the judgment "Why didn't you speak in tongues like I commanded you?" (of which I am still trying to search the Bible to find that command that says ALL should speak in tongues...) Rather, he will ask us "did you love?"

 

[Floatingaxe]

If one is filled with the Holy Spirit and operating in that dimension, then as a King's Kid, if the Holy Spirit needed, then that Christian should be able operate in the gift required. If a prophecy is needed, then I should be able to prophesy. If tongues is required in the congregation, use me! If interpreters are needed, maybe He will give that to me. If knowledge is needed, I could be given that as well. If healing is called for, I hope God would bless me with that ability...and so on. There are nine gifts, and we should all be available for God's use at any time for any one of them!

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I realise in my last post I did not specifically deal with Acts 2:6 (I had to cut the post down as it was over 15000 characters at first, anyhow)

And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

If this was all the Bible said on the matter, then Matheetees ho Keerux might be right in saying:



However, the word "tongues" in verse 4 is plural, and this refutes the assertion that the Apostles only spoke one language/tongue but were heard in many. It could well be that multiple Apostles spoke the same language at the same time or one. It is also possible that each apostle spoke multiple languages (though I'm not saying each apostle spoke more than one at once). Even if the word tongues wasn't plural in Acts 2:4, this would explain the use of the plural word "them" in Acts 2:6.

Refrus

Yes but the sound was singular . . . phones (fon-ays) . . . which is what they heard . . . one noise as well in the feminine declension . . . SAME AS TONGUES making the connection of sound more to the tongues than a commotion of all the happenings.

Also . . . the Greek says . . . each one (singular pronoun) heard them (plural pronoun) . . . and is reiterated by the exclamation of the one speaking . . . how is it that we hear them . . . each in our own dialect.

As for 1 Cor. 14 . . . tongues of angels (chpt 13) and the fact that NO ONE (all encompassing negative meaning NONE) understands . . . the only way that the tongue is understood is by way of interpretation . . .

Also the historical linguistic usage of glossais lalien, en pnuemati as contrasted to nous . . . ALL point to unintelligible speech (ecstatic . . . NOT ECSTASY . . . ecstatic . . . as in ek stasis).

Besides . . . the speaking of TONGUES (plural) doesn't define anything . . . Paul uses the terms interchangably in 1 Cor 14 to refer to the same thing . . . so plural or singular really defines nothing.

Not to mention that if tongues are a product of the language group of the speaker (phonetically) then it would follow that the sound of the language would be different then another.

I see tongues as originating from the deepest part of the practioner . . . for the Christian something that is awakened by God the Spirit. If it is a "language" then perhaps it is best defined as the language of the person's soul. Studies have found that tongue speakers, when practicing tongues, have activity in the emotive parts of the brain . . . verses the frontal lobe . . . or cognitive region . . . where the langauge centers and reasoning faculties lie. This represents quite well what Paul says as being different then praying with the mind/understanding.

This being the case . . . tongues are highly individual and highly emotive . . . so TONGUES verses TONGUE really doesn't shoot holes in the arguement.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Nope, just understand that Paul is speaking hypothetically, not admitting to the possibility, i.e. with the meaning "Even if I were to speak every language in heaven and on earth.. (but have not love)"

Compare how Paul says "understand all mysteries, have all knowledge, have all faith, bestow all my goods..."

It is taking the verse out of context to make it infer "angelic languages" as being something people can speak.

Anyway, anytime we actually read accounts of angels speaking, they speak in human languages.

Refrus

Actually the Testament of Job (a Jewish work) recounts the daughters of Job learning different langauges of angels . . . that were not understandable.

So while yes Paul is speaking HYPERBOLE . . . he is not speaking hypothetically. Being a Pharisee . . . he would have been well acquainted with this work through the Rabbi's . . .

 

[Highland Watchman]

If one is filled with the Holy Spirit and operating in that dimension, then as a King's Kid, if the Holy Spirit needed, then that Christian should be able operate in the gift required. If a prophecy is needed, then I should be able to prophesy. If tongues is required in the congregation, use me! If interpreters are needed, maybe He will give that to me. If knowledge is needed, I could be given that as well. If healing is called for, I hope God would bless me with that ability...and so on. There are nine gifts, and we should all be available for God's use at any time for any one of them!

Only 9? Really? What about those mentioned in Ephesians 4? Or Romans 12? Are those not Spiritual Gifts?

I appreciate my brothers and sisters who CAN speak in tongues simply because I know I cannot, and I also know that this is not where my calling lies. I am thankful that through their giftedness, they can complement my own weaknesses. But likewise, I am also thankful that the gifts that God has given me are a unique set given to me, to fit into the body where HE has placed me to do His work. If everyone can do everything at any time, then what need we of each other? And what need we of the rest of the body?

I do agree with you, though, that if God calls and equips, then I am more than willing to go, if I am the one being called... However, I still hold to the argument that not all are apostles, prophets, or tongues speakers.

 

[John 10:10]

Since non-tongue speakers seem to think they know more about the gift of tongues than do tongue speakers, I will not comment any further to non-tongue speakers.

To the privious post, I will simple say this:

All Christians do not speak in tongues, but all Spirit-filled Christians get to, if they in faith choose to partake of this gift.

Blessings

 

[MarkEvan]

Since non-tongue speakers seem to think they know more about the gift of tongues than do tongue speakers, I will not comment any further to non-tongue speakers.

To the privious post, I will simple say this:

All Christians do not speak in tongues, but all Spirit-filled Christians get to, if they in faith choose to partake of this gift.

Blessings

So basically what you are saying is that anyone who does not speak in tongues becasue they do not have that gift......is not filled with the Spirit? What is the difference between someone who is Spirit filled and a normal christian?
You are aware that what you are saying is incredibly offensive to those of us who cannot speak in tongues, no where does it say that a sign of someone being filled in the Spirit (which lets face it is the definition of a christian) is that they speak in tongues, and that if you don`t speak in tongues then you are not filled with the Spirit. what is a sign however is that somone has conqured sin in their lives, that is the true power of the Spirit........not speaking in tongues, I don`t deny that it is a gift and that it is there to edify believers, but it is not the sign of a Spirit filled believer, many I believe will speak in tongues and will go to hell (matthew 7) yet no one who has ceased with sin through the power and blood of the Lord Jesus will be lost.


Mark

 

[Floatingaxe]

Only 9? Really? What about those mentioned in Ephesians 4? Or Romans 12? Are those not Spiritual Gifts?

I appreciate my brothers and sisters who CAN speak in tongues simply because I know I cannot, and I also know that this is not where my calling lies. I am thankful that through their giftedness, they can complement my own weaknesses. But likewise, I am also thankful that the gifts that God has given me are a unique set given to me, to fit into the body where HE has placed me to do His work. If everyone can do everything at any time, then what need we of each other? And what need we of the rest of the body?

I do agree with you, though, that if God calls and equips, then I am more than willing to go, if I am the one being called... However, I still hold to the argument that not all are apostles, prophets, or tongues speakers.

We are not ALL apostles, or evangelists etc, but we are ALL potentially able to be--as God draws on the anointing as required.

Not any one gift is assigned to anyone. We are ALL, as Spirit-filled believers, open to ANY gifting that is deemed necessary at the particular circumstance that God sees fit to move in.

 

[Floatingaxe]

So basically what you are saying is that anyone who does not speak in tongues becasue they do not have that gift......is not filled with the Spirit? What is the difference between someone who is Spirit filled and a normal christian?
You are aware that what you are saying is incredibly offensive to those of us who cannot speak in tongues, no where does it say that a sign of someone being filled in the Spirit (which lets face it is the definition of a christian) is that they speak in tongues, and that if you don`t speak in tongues then you are not filled with the Spirit. what is a sign however is that somone has conqured sin in their lives, that is the true power of the Spirit........not speaking in tongues, I don`t deny that it is a gift and that it is there to edify believers, but it is not the sign of a Spirit filled believer, many I believe will speak in tongues and will go to hell (matthew 7) yet no one who has ceased with sin through the power and blood of the Lord Jesus will be lost.


Mark

Honey, it's not that you CANNOT speak in tongues. You simply haven't done it yet! When the Holy Spirit comes in His fullness and baptizes us in His power, we have the gift...we just have to put it into practice, is all!

It isn't a badge we wear...it's a blessing we carry.

 

[MarkEvan]

Honey, it's not that you CANNOT speak in tongues. You simply haven't done it yet! When the Holy Spirit comes in His fullness and baptizes us in His power, we have the gift...we just have to put it into practice, is all!

It isn't a badge we wear...it's a blessing we carry.

But it is the assumptions made, that because we cannot yet speak in tongues we therefore have not recieved the fulness of the Spirit! What about the rest of the christian walk? What about persuing peace with everyone and the holiness without which no one will see the LORD, what about, and these three remain faith, hope and love but the greatest of all is love, or all that matters is faith working through love!!! are you saying that someone who opperates in all these areas, yet does not speak in tongues is not Spirit filled?
Tongues is the least of the gifts, and we are told by Paul to seek the higher gifts, and then he tells us that above these is an even more exelent way.....that of love. From what I know of the scriptures you can have love and not speak in tongues and be saved, the opposite is, I believe you can speak in tongues and not have love and so go to hell (Paul 1 Cor 13), judge for yourself which is a sure sign of someones being Spirit filled.

Mark

 

[Floatingaxe]

But it is the assumptions made, that because we cannot yet speak in tongues we therefore have not recieved the fulness of the Spirit! What about the rest of the christian walk? What about persuing peace with everyone and the holiness without which no one will see the LORD, what about, and these three remain faith, hope and love but the greatest of all is love, or all that matters is faith working through love!!! are you saying that someone who opperates in all these areas, yet does not speak in tongues is not Spirit filled?
Tongues is the least of the gifts, and we are told by Paul to seek the higher gifts, and then he tells us that above these is an even more exelent way.....that of love. From what I know of the scriptures you can have love and not speak in tongues and be saved, the opposite is, I believe you can speak in tongues and not have love and so go to hell (Paul 1 Cor 13), judge for yourself which is a sure sign of someones being Spirit filled.

Mark

Tongues is the most easily discerned gift to others. That is why it is said that it is the best indicator. But it isn't the only indicator. Relax, dear!

 

[Highland Watchman]

We are not ALL apostles, or evangelists etc, but we are ALL potentially able to be--as God draws on the anointing as required.

Not any one gift is assigned to anyone. We are ALL, as Spirit-filled believers, open to ANY gifting that is deemed necessary at the particular circumstance that God sees fit to move in.

Yes, we all have the potential in the sense that we are all made in the image of God. However, as part of how God has built and designed us to be, as well as the calling that He has assigned to each of us, to some is given one gift, and to another - another. An apostle is an apostle because he/she has been sent out as a missionary from the sending church to establish a new church. Not everyone is called to do that. Yes, the potential is there... but God only equips those whom HE chooses and calls for the task... and there are some who are more likely to be called to a certain kind of gift/calling than others.

For example, if He assigns the gift of teaching upon a person, He will give plenty of experience and practice on the teacher, as well as a drive to teach correctly. He will give the talents and gifts connected to teaching (which would include an education). A potential shortfall of this teacher is if in his knowledge and understanding, which he should be using to build up the body, he becomes arrogant and can't believe that nobody else understands as much as he does.

For another example, there are some that God gives the gift of an amazing singing voice or a talent with music. That is their passion and calling, and God sanctifies it and gives them every chance to practice and show this gift to the world, as praise to Him. There are others who are not so gifted, even if filled with the Holy Spirit. I have an Indian buddy, very in touch with the Holy Spirit, and very interested in learning the things of God. And yet he has no sense of rhythm and he can't carry a tune to save himself. No matter how much we pray for the meeting, he is always out of tune and out of step with the rest of the team.

 

[Highland Watchman]

Since non-tongue speakers seem to think they know more about the gift of tongues than do tongue speakers, I will not comment any further to non-tongue speakers.

To the privious post, I will simple say this:

All Christians do not speak in tongues, but all Spirit-filled Christians get to, if they in faith choose to partake of this gift.

Blessings

And in light of the arrogance in this post, I refuse to acknowledge those resounding gongs and clanging cymbals who refuse to admit that there are other parts of the body than their own.

Shallom.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Yes, we all have the potential in the sense that we are all made in the image of God. However, as part of how God has built and designed us to be, as well as the calling that He has assigned to each of us, to some is given one gift, and to another - another. An apostle is an apostle because he/she has been sent out as a missionary from the sending church to establish a new church. Not everyone is called to do that. Yes, the potential is there... but God only equips those whom HE chooses and calls for the task... and there are some who are more likely to be called to a certain kind of gift/calling than others.

For example, if He assigns the gift of teaching upon a person, He will give plenty of experience and practice on the teacher, as well as a drive to teach correctly. He will give the talents and gifts connected to teaching (which would include an education). A potential shortfall of this teacher is if in his knowledge and understanding, which he should be using to build up the body, he becomes arrogant and can't believe that nobody else understands as much as he does.

For another example, there are some that God gives the gift of an amazing singing voice or a talent with music. That is their passion and calling, and God sanctifies it and gives them every chance to practice and show this gift to the world, as praise to Him. There are others who are not so gifted, even if filled with the Holy Spirit. I have an Indian buddy, very in touch with the Holy Spirit, and very interested in learning the things of God. And yet he has no sense of rhythm and he can't carry a tune to save himself. No matter how much we pray for the meeting, he is always out of tune and out of step with the rest of the team.

That is also true, but He can use us whenever He needs, when we are open to it. Each gifting isn't always one that is OURS and is there for our entire lifespan.

 

[Highland Watchman]

That is also true, but He can use us whenever He needs, when we are opne to it. Each gifting isn't always one that is OURS and is there for our entire lifespan.

Yes, he does use us whenever He needs us, but it is usually through the calling/gifts that He has given us.

And I do agree that the gifts are not ours. They belong to God, and they can be removed, just as much as they could be given. King Saul is the classic example of this. He started out as a gifted king and leader, and he ended up twisted and corrupted by his own jealousy in the end.

And there is also validity to the idea that there are seasons in life where the flavor of our life calling will change... where we will develop other gifts/abilities that will help us in our task. For example, Joseph had to go through a lot, and he went through some pretty intense shifts before he was finally ready to undertake his main calling, which was to be the governor of Egypt and to save his family from the famine. If not for the different seasons in his life, I highly doubt he would have been ready for the task given him.

Who knows? Perhaps one day, I will be in a situation where God will need me to speak to someone with whom we do not have a common language. He has interpreted a few messages here in Korea for me - or at least the basic gyst of messages. Perhaps when I go somewhere, I will just speak that language... or perhaps in my seminary studies, I will naturally "know" the biblical/ancient languages that I study. In which case, I am more than willing to have the gift of those tongues for as long as God needs me to use them.

My own gifts, which I have had them for as long as I can remember, in one form or another, has been teaching, prophecy, pastor/shepherd and faith. Those have been pretty constant in how God has been growing them in me. I don't know how they will play out in the long run, but I know that is part of the calling that I have...

 

[MarkEvan]

Tongues is the most easily discerned gift to others. That is why it is said that it is the best indicator. But it isn't the only indicator. Relax, dear!

Sorry I guess I did get a bit worked up there, but try at least to understand where I and others are coming from..........there have been several statements made that, if we do not speak in tongues we do not have the fulness of the Spirit, statements like that are untrue, the scriptures teach otherwise, they teach that some are gifted with tongues, some prophecies, some healing but not everyone operates in one area (tongues), as has already been pointed out by HW we are the body of Christ and subsequently function in different ways, the eyes cant say to the hand "I don`t need you" (or in this case you are not Spirit filled), the eyes have to acknowledge that not everyone will be able to speak in tongues (otherwise Paul is wrong in 1 cor 12), but that they have their own calling. I know many people who displayed many gifts, and much fruit and yet never spoke in tongues, John Wesley being an example, a person through whom God brought about the "great awakening" in the 17+1800`s, a man who even his enemies said, he was the most peaceful and loving man they had met, and that he turned the world upside down, yet never once (according to history)spoke in tongues. Yet I would not hesitate for a minute to say that this man was Spirit filled.

Mark

 

[Floatingaxe]

Sorry I guess I did get a bit worked up there, but try at least to understand where I and others are coming from..........there have been several statements made that, if we do not speak in tongues we do not have the fulness of the Spirit, statements like that are untrue, the scriptures teach otherwise, they teach that some are gifted with tongues, some prophecies, some healing but not everyone operates in one area (tongues), as has already been pointed out by HW we are the body of Christ and subsequently function in different ways, the eyes cant say to the hand "I don`t need you" (or in this case you are not Spirit filled), the eyes have to acknowledge that not everyone will be able to speak in tongues (otherwise Paul is wrong in 1 cor 12), but that they have their own calling. I know many people who displayed many gifts, and much fruit and yet never spoke in tongues, John Wesley being an example, a person through whom God brought about the "great awakening" in the 17+1800`s, a man who even his enemies said, he was the most peaceful and loving man they had met, and that he turned the world upside down, yet never once (according to history)spoke in tongues. Yet I would not hesitate for a minute to say that this man was Spirit filled.

Mark

When we are filled or baptized with the Holy Spirit, He lives in our bodies! So, we have all of Him in us, and we have access to ALL of His empowering gifts.

Technically I have all of them right now! Do I use them all? No. But I could use any one, should God need me to.

Tongues, being the "least" of the gifts, is readily available to you. Open your mouth and let Him use your voice.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

So basically what you are saying is that anyone who does not speak in tongues becasue they do not have that gift......is not filled with the Spirit? What is the difference between someone who is Spirit filled and a normal christian?
You are aware that what you are saying is incredibly offensive to those of us who cannot speak in tongues, no where does it say that a sign of someone being filled in the Spirit (which lets face it is the definition of a christian) is that they speak in tongues, and that if you don`t speak in tongues then you are not filled with the Spirit. what is a sign however is that somone has conqured sin in their lives, that is the true power of the Spirit........not speaking in tongues, I don`t deny that it is a gift and that it is there to edify believers, but it is not the sign of a Spirit filled believer, many I believe will speak in tongues and will go to hell (matthew 7) yet no one who has ceased with sin through the power and blood of the Lord Jesus will be lost.


Mark

This is actually a common misunderstanding . . . Luke uses the phrase "filled with the Spirit" (along with others) to describe and experience where, yes, tongues are the evidence of the experience (initially).

Paul, howeverl, uses the phrase differently.

People make a common error and confuse the different author's usages of terms and cross interpret them. This can be done in some cases . . . in others it cannot.

Paul and Luke's pneumatological perspectives are different.

So please don't take offense . . . and to those of us who do speak in tongues . . . be aware of the language that we use . . . for it can cause confusion . . . as it has here. For the sake of clarity perhaps it would be wise to use a different terminology . . . like say "empowered by the Spirit" . . . this is one phrase that I have found to be pretty non-offensive.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Only 9? Really? What about those mentioned in Ephesians 4? Or Romans 12? Are those not Spiritual Gifts?

I appreciate my brothers and sisters who CAN speak in tongues simply because I know I cannot, and I also know that this is not where my calling lies. I am thankful that through their giftedness, they can complement my own weaknesses. But likewise, I am also thankful that the gifts that God has given me are a unique set given to me, to fit into the body where HE has placed me to do His work. If everyone can do everything at any time, then what need we of each other? And what need we of the rest of the body?

I do agree with you, though, that if God calls and equips, then I am more than willing to go, if I am the one being called... However, I still hold to the argument that not all are apostles, prophets, or tongues speakers.

Not all will be used in the public MINISTRY of tongues . . . but this says nothing of the private usage of tongues . . . and even Paul wishes that all would . . . but doesn't say that all WILL . . . so at least the potential for all TO is real . . . even if not all WILL.

 

[John 10:10]

So basically what you are saying is that anyone who does not speak in tongues becasue they do not have that gift......is not filled with the Spirit? What is the difference between someone who is Spirit filled and a normal christian?
You are aware that what you are saying is incredibly offensive to those of us who cannot speak in tongues, no where does it say that a sign of someone being filled in the Spirit (which lets face it is the definition of a christian) is that they speak in tongues, and that if you don`t speak in tongues then you are not filled with the Spirit. what is a sign however is that somone has conqured sin in their lives, that is the true power of the Spirit........not speaking in tongues, I don`t deny that it is a gift and that it is there to edify believers, but it is not the sign of a Spirit filled believer, many I believe will speak in tongues and will go to hell (matthew 7) yet no one who has ceased with sin through the power and blood of the Lord Jesus will be lost.


Mark

What I said was,

"All Spirit-filled Christians get to speak in tongues, if they in faith choose to partake of this gift."

This also means that all Spirit-filled Christians do not have to speak in tongues. I have known many Spirit-filled Christians that manifest other gifts of the Spirit, and do not feel slighted or left out because they do not speak in tongues.

Charles Finney, Hudson Taylor, D. L. Moody, Billy Graham and many many other Christians have experienced the infilling of the Holy Spirit subsequent to their being born again, yet have never spoke in tongues after being filled with the Spirit. There can and should be continuing infillings of the Holy Spirit. It is not just a one time infilling, but there should be an initial infilling of the Holy Spirit. For some Christians, this occurs at the moment of being born again, but for most Christians it happens subsequent to being born again.

No where does the Scripture say that tongues is the least of the gifts. When accompanied by interpretation, is it the same as the gift of prophesy.

Maybe many Christians do not feel the need to speak to God in tongues (1 Cor 14:2), or to edify oneself (1 Cor 14:4), but some do. Does that make us superior to those that do not speak in tongues? No it does not!!! But it does not make us inferior either!!! It was good enough for Paul.

"Now I wish you that you all spoke in tongues" (1 Cor 14:5). Let's just leave it there.

Blessings