Speaking in tongues, compulsory or not?

[chopper77]

As far as I am aware, there is a gift of interepreting tongues, which is needed to understand this language, and if you don't have it, it sounds like babble.

Because it is babble, Adam. Linguists have studied it and found that they aren't languages, "tongues" don't have any features of any languages spoken by humans and they are basically people subconsciously making babble sounds pretending to be inspired.

You know what we could do? Lets record someone speaking in tongues and then play the tape seperately for 2 people that have the "gift" of interpreting tongues. Then we could test if it's valid or not. I doubt that there would be any takers.

 

[Adam81]

Personally, I haven't actually encountered 'speaking in tongues', aside from what I am pretty sure is people repeating various syllables over and over. This, however, is an Italian church, and none of them have actually called it 'speaking in tongues', and it is likely that they are praying in Italian.

One thing I know a few people believe is what i said before, that speaking in & interpreting tongues allows you to communicate with people of a different language about the gospel etc.

What are people's thoughts on this idea?

 

[Abbadon]

Wait... You mean actual human language?

Yeah. I'd a thought that would be common sense.

I thought this was about people going on in gibberish.

...Oh... Nevermind...

 

[Soldier of YAH]

If speaking in tongues did not exist, or was not necessary, why would the Bible include it?
If anyone believes in the Bible then they must believe the Bible, not what another person has told them.

"What man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God" (1 Corinthians 2:11)

"But the time is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. For God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth." (John 4:23-24)

"But the natural person does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to them; nor can they know them, because they are spiritually discerned. ... But we have the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 2:14,16)

"Your Faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God." (1 Corinthians 2:5"

"Most assuredly, I say unto you, unless one is born again of water and the Spirit they cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. ... The Spirit blows where it wishes, and you hear the voice of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:5-8)

"But you are not in the flesh, but in the Sprit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they are none of His." (Romans 8:9)

"For I will restore to the peoples a pure language, that they all may call upon the name of the Lord to serve Him with one accord." (Zephaniah 3:9)

"Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession on our behalf with groanings that cannot be spoken." (Romans 8:26)

"For with stammereing lips and another tongue He will speak to this people, to whom He said, "This is the rest with which you may cause the weary to rest," and "This is the refreshing"; yet they would not hear." (Isaiah 28:11-12)

"You will see a fierce people, a people of obscure speech beyond perception, of a stammering tongue you cannot understand." (Isaiah 33:19)

""As for Me", says the Lord, "this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants' descendants," says the Lord,"from this time and forevermore." (Isaiah 59:21)

"For it is not you who speaks, but the Spirit of your Father who is in you." (Matthew 10:20)

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding of it is unfruitful." (1 Corinthians 14:14)

"For the person who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God, for no person understands them; however, in the Spirit they speak mysteries." (1 Corinthians 14:2)

"Go out into all the world and preach the gospel to all living. The person who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the person who does not believe will be condemned. And the signs shall follow them that believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak in tongues;" (Mark 16:15-17)

"He (Jesus) breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."" (John 20:22)

"For John truly baptised you with water, but you shall be baptised with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." (Acts 1:5)

"And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterence." (Acts 2:4)

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God." (Acts 10:44-46)

"Then Paul said, "John indeed baptised with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people thaty they should believe on Him who would come after Him, that is, on the Lord Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirt came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." (ACts 19:4-6)

"The are a diversity of Gifts, but the same Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:4)

"But the one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills." (1 Corinthians 12:11)

"Love never fails. But whether there are prophesies, they will fail; whether there are tongues they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which was in part shall be done away." (1 Corinthians 13:8-10)

"praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit ..." (Ephesians 6:18)

"For we are of the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh." (Phillipians 3:3)

"Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to unbelievers;" (1 Corinthians 14:22)

"Let all things be done decently and in order." (1 Corinthians 14:40)

"For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints." (1 Corinthians 14:33)

"Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there comes in some who are uninformed, or unbelievers, will they not say you are out of your mind?" (1 Corinthians 14:23)

"If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. But if there is no interpreter, let them keep silent in the church, and let them speak to themselves and to God." (1 Corinthians 14:27-28)

"The person who speaks in a tongue uplifts themself, but they who prophesy uplift the whole church." (1 Corinthians 14:4)

"I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all: yet in the Church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue." (1 Corinthians 14:18-19)

"But you beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit," (Jude 1:20)

"What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the Spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the Spirit, and I will sing with the understanding." (1 Corinthians 14:15)

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." (Romans 9:15)

"For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit ..." (1 Thessalonians 1:5)

"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost. For the Promise is to you and to your descendants, to those who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:38-39)

Who here can deny the Word of God?
These scriptures clearly state:

1. God is a Spirit.
2. The flesh cannot understand the Spirit or God.
3. Man cannot worship God without the Spirit.
4. Not all have the Spirit, but it is available to all.
5. The Holy Spirit is given to those who repent (change their way of life) and believe (trust in, rely upon, adhere to, live by something) on God.
6. Baptism is a commandment of salvation, but it is not necessary to be baptised before receiving the Spirit.
7. Those who are filled with the Spirit speak in tongues, amongst the other gifts of the Holy Spirit. It is done by all. But in the Church meeting it should be an ordered process - two or three with interpretations each.
8. Speaking in tongues is something that humans cannot understand, even our own fleshly selves don't know what we are saying. It is the Spirit inside you talking to God. It is not another human language, nor even a language of the angels. It is the Language of the Spirit.
9. Speaking in tongues is a sign of the Spirit, that will not cease to occur until Jesus Christ (that which is perfect) returns.
10. If you do not have the Spirit - you are none of God's.

I speak in tongues. I can start and stop it, but I can't control it. I do not know what I am saying, but I can feel the Spirit inside me yearning. I first spoke in tongues when I received the Spirit of God. I felt happy and incredibly light, as if the world was lifted off my shoulders. I can pray in the Spirit and God answers me. I have had several healings, I have seen many other healings in other people by prayer in the Spirit. I can understand the scriptures, or the 'sword of the spirit', now, with no confusion.
And I know that I am not alone, nor am a 'freak circumstance', because I know of tens of thousands of people who have experienced the same things as me. I can look up in the Bible and see that the early church did exactly the same things I am doing. Nothing has changed.

I know that I have the right gospel, because God Himself proves Himself to me with signs, wonders and miracles - just like the Bible says.

Does your gospel have this power behind it? If not, then are you sure that it is of God?

The Spirit is a gift available unto all who ask it of God with a right heart. You can become just like Peter, and Paul, and me.

Soldier of YAH

 

[Abbadon]

I feel that there's a difference between believing in the Bible and believing in God.

I also feel that I have my own path to walk, without a spiritual roadmap.

Some people can use every aspect of the Bible as such, but I can only accept the Bible as a series of documents written over a long period of time by a bunch of different people to try and explain thier personal views of the world and of God. I won't deny that it may be possible to be possessed by the Holy spirit and that that may result in speaking in tongues, but I would refuse to say that it would be required. I just live in a different part of the spiritual world, I guess.

 

[Adam81]

If speaking in tongues did not exist, or was not necessary, why would the Bible include it?
If anyone believes in the Bible then they must believe the Bible, not what another person has told them.



"Who here can deny the Word of God?
These scriptures clearly state:

1. God is a Spirit.
2. The flesh cannot understand the Spirit or God.
3. Man cannot worship God without the Spirit.
4. Not all have the Spirit, but it is available to all.
5. The Holy Spirit is given to those who repent (change their way of life) and believe (trust in, rely upon, adhere to, live by something) on God.
6. Baptism is a commandment of salvation, but it is not necessary to be baptised before receiving the Spirit.
7. Those who are filled with the Spirit speak in tongues, amongst the other gifts of the Holy Spirit. It is done by all. But in the Church meeting it should be an ordered process - two or three with interpretations each.
8. Speaking in tongues is something that humans cannot understand, even our own fleshly selves don't know what we are saying. It is the Spirit inside you talking to God. It is not another human language, nor even a language of the angels. It is the Language of the Spirit.
9. Speaking in tongues is a sign of the Spirit, that will not cease to occur until Jesus Christ (that which is perfect) returns.
10. If you do not have the Spirit - you are none of God's.

I speak in tongues. I can start and stop it, but I can't control it. I do not know what I am saying, but I can feel the Spirit inside me yearning. I first spoke in tongues when I received the Spirit of God. I felt happy and incredibly light, as if the world was lifted off my shoulders. I can pray in the Spirit and God answers me. I have had several healings, I have seen many other healings in other people by prayer in the Spirit. I can understand the scriptures, or the 'sword of the spirit', now, with no confusion.
And I know that I am not alone, nor am a 'freak circumstance', because I know of tens of thousands of people who have experienced the same things as me. I can look up in the Bible and see that the early church did exactly the same things I am doing. Nothing has changed.

I know that I have the right gospel, because God Himself proves Himself to me with signs, wonders and miracles - just like the Bible says.

Does your gospel have this power behind it? If not, then are you sure that it is of God?

The Spirit is a gift available unto all who ask it of God with a right heart. You can become just like Peter, and Paul, and me.

Soldier of YAH

None of those bible verses say that speaking in tongues in necessary - in fact, hardly any of them are about speaking in tongues! If you only pull out one verse, you can make it read anything. You need to pull out a whole passage (at least the verse immediately before and after).
And the Zephaniah verse would have nothing to do on the topic of speaking in tongues, as it is from the Old Testament, and speaking in tongues is a Christian gift, not Jewish.
Now, the gift of music is mentioned in the bible, but it does not make that necessary, and the same goes with crucifixtion, etc.



1 Corinthians 14:4-6 (New International Version)


4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[a] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified. 6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?



Footnotes:

1. <LI id=fen-NIV-28668a>1 Corinthians 14:5 Or other languages; also in verses 6, 18, 22, 23 and 39
2. 1 Corinthians 14:5 Or other languages; also in verses 6, 18, 22, 23 and 39

And one of the most important passage in my mind is 1 Corinthians 12 about spiritual gifts. The other very important passage is 1 Corinthians 13, about love, which is used in most weddings. I believe the whole passage deals with how we are to treat each other in the church. All of 1 Corinthians 14 is also good reading, but tool ong to post here in its entirety (I apologise for the length of this post)

1 Corinthians 12

<H5>Spiritual Gifts </H5> 1Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. 2You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body–whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free–and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don't need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don't need you!” 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way.


1 Corinthians 13 (New International Version)

<H5>Love </H5> 1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.


4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not selfseeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


Now, these passages clearly show that speaking in tongues can also be interpreted from ancient Greek or Hebrew as speaking in other languages, which on that alone could mean that speaking in tongues and interpreting tongues could mean other 'earthly' languages that you don't know (ie the sermon in Acts that everybody could understand, as if it were spoken in their own language).
Also, these passages show that speaking in tongues isn't that important. In your interpretation, it doesn't glorify God, just yourself, and we are commanded to use our gifts to glorify God in everything we do.
They show that different gifts are given to different people. While some may get speaking in tongues, another won't and may get the gift of ministry etc.
These passages give the impression that speaking in tongues is one of the least important gifts. An extreme way to look at it (not my opinion) is that only those who can't pray themselves, who need the spirit to pray for them, get the gift of speaking in tongues, and aren't mature Christians. To say that if you don't have the gift of speaking in tongues (or other languages that you don't know) then you can't be a Christian, is also an extreme statement, and unfair to those who were not given the gift by God.
My biggest dislike about this theory is that people who are told this as a new christian fall away from God because they were not given the same gift.

 

[Socrastein]

You know what we could do? Lets record someone speaking in tongues and then play the tape seperately for 2 people that have the "gift" of interpreting tongues. Then we could test if it's valid or not. I doubt that there would be any takers.

I actually did some research on this a while back and found two or three articles that said this exact thing had been done, and the various interpretations never once matched. I just looked around a little to try and find it again and was unsuccessful, but perhaps someone else will have better luck than me.

 

[Tawhano]

chopper77 said:
Because it is babble, Linguists have studied it and found that they aren't languages

Ahh..so these linguist have proven the Bible to be false eh? I’ve heard this bit of rubbish before and have not found any real substance in these ‘linguists’ findings. Certainly there are people who fake tongues but that doesn’t prove that tongues is false any more than fake healers prove healing is false.

 

[tulc]

The Spirit is a gift available unto all who ask it of God with a right heart. You can become just like Peter, and Paul, and me.

Shouldn't we aim somewhat higher then that? (ie Peter, Paul, you) Shouldn't our goal be to more like Jesus? Just a thought.
tulc(who already jumps the gun like Peter did)

 

[Plan 9]

Yeah, what tulc said.

 

[Adam81]

I agree with Tulc.

And, Soldier of YAH, I was wondering what denomination you attend? I attend Churches of Christ (Australia).

 

[CWLite]

I feel that there's a difference between believing in the Bible and believing in God.

I also feel that I have my own path to walk, without a spiritual roadmap.

Some people can use every aspect of the Bible as such, but I can only accept the Bible as a series of documents written over a long period of time by a bunch of different people to try and explain thier personal views of the world and of God. I won't deny that it may be possible to be possessed by the Holy spirit and that that may result in speaking in tongues, but I would refuse to say that it would be required. I just live in a different part of the spiritual world, I guess.

Well, John 1:1 says that there is no difference between God and the word of God, the bible. If you believe in the bible, you believe in God.

Tongues is not nessessary for salvation, but a sign of the Holy Spirit and a gift to be used.

Romans 8:26-27 (Amplified Bible) - 26So too the [Holy] Spirit comes to our aid and bears us up in our weakness; for we do not know what prayer to offer nor how to offer it worthily as we ought, but the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings too deep for utterance.
27And He Who searches the hearts of men knows what is in the mind of the [Holy] Spirit [what His intent is], because the Spirit intercedes and pleads [before God] in behalf of the saints according to and in harmony with God's will.

1 Corinthians 14:2 (Amplified Bible) - 2For one who speaks in an [unknown] tongue speaks not to men but to God, for no one understands or catches his meaning, because in the [Holy] Spirit he utters secret truths and hidden things [not obvious to the understanding].

All gifts are activated by the Holy Spirit, and He decides when they are used. With tongues, it seems that it can be perform at will, well I can. When someone speaks in tongues, it is a prayer that the Holy Spirit offers before God. In this prayer, are the hidden intent and outcry's of our soul and spirit. When you don't know what to pray for, just speak into tongues. When I speak when I have nothing to say or am having a bad day, tongues changes you attitude as you direct your attention to God, and your spirit really gets riled up. Praying in tongues is praying the perfect prayer.
Often when people get baptised and/or touched by the Holy Spirit, they speak in a tongue or prophesy. When I was baptised in the spirit, I spoke a strange tongue, but it was like I wasn't doing the talking. Another time when someone laid hands on me, I prophesied with little control. There are many cases where a missionary would be in paril, their lives in risk, and they would speak in tongues like they would normally do. Suddenly the oppressors would understand what the missionary was saying, and they would cower in fear, or they would pledge alligiance to God.

To really understand tongues, you not only need to understand spiritual things, but to experience these spiritual things. I was a sceptic for years, it kinda creeped me out. I researched it and had an opportunity to see what this was all about. Well, as you know, I speak a language. I garentee you that it is not babble (of course there are those who fake), but a language of heaven. As one grows in Christ, the more fluent the language spoken. There is so much in it, keep the research up.

 

[ahab]

Thank you for that CWlite. Thats very much what I believe and my experience.

I think Paul says that tongues is not a major gift and so I am surprised that people find it something to discuss so much compared with other gifts .

 

[artybloke]

Well, John 1:1 says that there is no difference between God and the word of God, the bible.

That, I'm afraid, is heresy and idolatry. The Word of God (Logos) is not the Bible; it is Christ himself, and that is who John 1:1 is refering to, not the Bible (read the rest of the chapter). The Bible is not, never has been and never will be God. We do not worship a book, we worship a person.

 

[seebs]

Well, John 1:1 says that there is no difference between God and the word of God, the bible. If you believe in the bible, you believe in God.

You have misunderstood the passage, and perilously so.

If you keep reading, you will find that it is Jesus, not the Bible, who is the Word.

The Bible is never once conflated with God in the Bible, but Jesus is several times, and the Word is always Jesus. See also, for instance, Revelation 19:13:

[bible]Revelation 19:13[/bible]

The notion of the Bible being the Word is I believe a formal heresy; the word you're looking for is "bibliolatry", and it contradicts Trinitarian Christian doctrine.

 

[ahab]

The Bible records what has been revealed by God to man throughout the ages. Its record of the ‘Word’, Jesus, both in what He did and said is how we understand what our relationship with God is to be.

Without the Bible or the oral account we wouldn’t be able to believe, ask and receive the Holy Spirit and thus live the life Jesus has given us. John also wrote 20:31 “But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” However John 6:63 “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.” So the Bible also contains is the word of God as well.

 

[seebs]

The Bible records what has been revealed by God to man throughout the ages. Its record of the ‘Word’, Jesus, both in what He did and said is how we understand what our relationship with God is to be.

This may be... But it's a book about Jesus. It's not Jesus.

Without the Bible or the oral account we wouldn’t be able to believe, ask and receive the Holy Spirit and thus live the life Jesus has given us. John also wrote 20:31 “But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” However John 6:63 “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.” So the Bible also contains is the word of God as well.

It contains words about God, or even words spoken by God.

That said, I disagree that you need a Bible to know God. That would turn the Bible into a magic talisman that God cannot act without! God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and He will speak to those He wishes.

 

[ahab]

This may be... But it's a book about Jesus. It's not Jesus.

Well that’s true, except it is the word of God in the sense that God’s revelation comes from it. However, if ‘this may not be’, it isn’t necessarily a book about Jesus either. But yes it does contain a record of Jesus, not Jesus, but the truth is found in Jesus and so His words and teachings and commands and His actions are statements of truth, by which we can receive the Spirit of God and know something of God’s presence and will.

That said, I disagree that you need a Bible to know God. That would turn the Bible into a magic talisman that God cannot act without! God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and He will speak to those He wishes.

Except I would say that God ultimately has had mercy on all through Jesus and has spoken to all through Jesus.

 

[seebs]

Well that’s true, except it is the word of God in the sense that God’s revelation comes from it.

No. God's revelation was put in it. The book came from people. God's revelation came to them. Directly.

The prophets were not people who picked up loose-leaf notebooks full of God's scribbles. They were people whom God talked to.

But yes it does contain a record of Jesus, not Jesus, but the truth is found in Jesus and so His words and teachings and commands and His actions are statements of truth, by which we can receive the Spirit of God and know something of God’s presence and will.

I agree with this. But the distinction matters. Jesus is, we are told, not actually dead. We can pray to Him. We can talk to Him.

Except I would say that God ultimately has had mercy on all through Jesus and has spoken to all through Jesus.

Indeed.

And has done so, in some cases, without them ever seeing a Bible.

 

[ahab]

No. God's revelation was put in it. The book came from people. God's revelation came to them.

Yes, but God’s revelation isn’t limited just to those to whom God gave it in order to be written down is it? It is the word of God in the sense that God’s revelation also comes from it to us His people, What God has done, is doing and will do, now through Jesus.

I agree with this. But the distinction matters. Jesus is, we are told, not actually dead. We can pray to Him. We can talk to Him.

Yes but we test the Spirit to make sure its from God. It was Christ Jesus who also spoke to the NT apostles and disciples that result in their teachings.

Indeed.

And has done so, in some cases, without them ever seeing a Bible.

No I disagree, Jesus has died for all whether they have seen a Bible/heard of Jesus or not. However Jesus is the one recorded as saying that we worship in Spirit and truth. His words are spirit and they are life. That God loves us and sent Jesus to us is life and truth. IMO the disctinction is between the Jesus that did come amnong us in the flesh and on ethat man has invented.