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Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

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Dave L

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The argument here is a continuation of the either / or situation with tongues. Tongues is either human languages understood by the hearer but not the speaker as it appears in Acts 2 or tongues is a language only understood by God as shown in 1 Cor 14. I believe the Bible does not put such limits on the expression of speaking in tongues. We see tongues can be understood by the hearer but not speaker Acts 2, tongues can be angelic languages 1 Cor 13 and tongues can be only a language understood by God 1 Cor 14. If you do not believe this is possible, please explain.
Paul limits the understanding of tongues to God and those with the gift of interpretation.
1 Corinthians 14:2

But he also says prophecy edifies the hearer because they understand what they are saying. So the person speaking in tongues must have also had the gift of interpretation. Because Paul says those who speak in tongues edify (understand) themselves.
 
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Saint Steven

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Do an experiment, and get two people to interpret, but have their interpretations given in separate rooms (i.e. so neither can hear the other's interpretation). I think the experiment will show that your best friend is just jibbering, or at the least, your interpreters can't interpret. If there are no interpreters, isn't the biblical instruction to keep the "tongues" between himself and God?
I don't think that the interpretation of tongues is quite that "robotic". Meaning, the interpreter of tongues may be led to bring some "preaching", or additional revelation, with the tongues interpretation. It would be an interesting experiment none the less. But any problems encountered could have several meanings.
 
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Paul.

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Saint Steven

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It's not general knowledge that passed away. Is general knowledge a spiritual gift? Surely you wouldn't say all general knowledge ceases when the Lord returns? No, it is the spiritual gift of 'words of knowledge' (1 Cor 12:8), a type of revelation, that ceased.
Are you saying that God doesn't speak to you?
 
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Dave L

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What is your understanding of when and how the Baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs? Do you see it as a separate and subsequent experience to salvation?
It was separate before Pentecost. But combined with the new birth afterwards.
 
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Saint Steven

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Thanks for the reply. The devout Jews from all nations were born again Jews. So they received the Holy Spirit with the gift of interpretation along with the Apostles. They were obviously believers or they would not have asked "what must we do?".

I believe Paul is making a point about love and not that there are tongues of men and angels. Paul limits tongues to speaking to God 1 Corinthians 14:2 and not to men. So any who know what is being said also have the gift of interpretation.

Acts 2:38 would be addressed to the 3000 who had not been added to the church yet. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. So those who asked obviously had the Holy Spirit or they would not have asked for instructions.
I don't think those devout Jews were born again. Peter's sermon indicated that they were not believers. What they needed to do was to repent and be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit. Thus not born again.

Saul was a devout Jew before he was born again and renamed Paul.

Acts 2:36-39
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also notice who the promise (gift of the Holy Spirit) is for. Four groups are mentioned.

The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” - verse 39

Have you been called?
 
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Dave L

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I don't think those devout Jews were born again. Peter's sermon indicted that they were not believers. What they needed to do was to repent and be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit. Thus not born again.

Acts 2:36-39
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also notice who the promise (gift of the Holy Spirit) is for. Four groups are mentioned.

The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” - verse 39

Have you been called?
The fact they they received Christ proved they were born again. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. All of the Jews listed in Hebrews 11 were born again because you cannot have faith apart from the new birth.

The reason they were cut to the heart was because they believed.
 
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Saint Steven

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The fact they they received Christ proved they were born again. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. All of the Jews listed in Hebrews 11 were born again because you cannot have faith apart from the new birth.

The reason they were cut to the heart was because they believed.
It seems to me that you are getting the cart before the horse.

Was Nicodemus a devout Jew?
“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus,
“and do you not understand these things?
- John 3:10

John 3:1-3
Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
 
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Paul.

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So the person speaking in tongues must have also had the gift of interpretation.
The people in the crowd in Acts 2 were not saved until after Peter's speech which is after the time you believe the interpretation occurred. This means you are saying that prior to salvation, people in the crowd were exercising spiritual gifts. Do you believe that unbelievers exercise spiritual gifts or is this an unintended result of your premise?
 
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Dave L

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That was after the sermon, not before the outpouring.
“Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”” (Acts 2:37)
After the outpouring.
 
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Dave L

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The people in the crowd in Acts 2 were not saved until after Peter's speech which is after the time you believe the interpretation occurred. This means you are saying that prior to salvation, people in the crowd were exercising spiritual gifts. Do you believe that unbelievers exercise spiritual gifts or is this an unintended result of your premise?
They were born again Jews = saved. Just as King David and all mentioned in Hebrews 11.
 
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Anto9us

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To me, hearing (or reading) Cessationists talk about Tongues is like the story of the blind men describing an elephant. One touched its side and said the elephant is like a wall, one touched its tail and said the elephant is like a rope, one touched its trunk and said the elephant is like a tree, etc.

The "perfect" has not come yet.

Although Tongues may be faked today by some, the genuine is still among us. Just as their is such a thing as counterfeit money, but that does not make real currency invalid.

Most charismatics and pentecostals have ACTUALLY SEEN THE ELEPHANT

and no Cessationist jibberish will deter them.
 
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Dave L

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To me, hearing (or reading) Cessationists talk about Tongues is like the story of the blind men describing an elephant. One touched its side and said the elephant is like a wall, one touched its tail and said the elephant is like a rope, one touched its trunk and said the elephant is like a tree, etc.

The "perfect" has not come yet.

Although Tongues may be faked today by some, the genuine is still among us. Just as their is such a thing as counterfeit money, but that does not make real currency invalid.

Most charismatics and pentecostals have ACTUALLY SEEN THE ELEPHANT

and no Cessationist jibberish will deter them.
Is the Bible perfect?
 
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Saint Steven

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“Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”” (Acts 2:37)
After the outpouring.
Just to be clear, you seem to be claiming they were born again before the outpouring. I am claiming that they were not born again until after the sermon.

Obviously the sermon was after the outpouring. -- outpouring > sermon > born again
Whereas you seem to be saying. -- born again > outpouring > sermon ???
 
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Paul.

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The fact they they received Christ proved they were born again. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. All of the Jews listed in Hebrews 11 were born again because you cannot have faith apart from the new birth.

The reason they were cut to the heart was because they believed.
What is you understanding of what is means to be born again? How does it occur and what are the requirements? What relationship does the new birth have to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?
 
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FenderTL5

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According to scripture, God enabled believers to speak to him in a heavenly language. A language unknown except by him and those to whom he gave a gift for interpreting it (1 Corinthians 14:27–28).

Many think the Apostles spoke supernaturally in human languages at Pentecost. And people from different nations naturally understood what they said in their own tongue. But Paul says when a person speaks in tongues, they speak to God and not to men (1 Corinthians 14:2). So on Pentecost, the Apostles spoke to God in a heavenly tongue and devout Jews from every nation overheard them in their own native tongue. So they must have received the gift of interpreting too.

God delivered the gift of tongues personally in the baptism of the Holy Spirit during the Jewish outpouring and about seven years later in the gentile outpouring at Cornelius’ house. But all other times he delivered the gift of tongues through the Apostles’ hands (Acts 8:18). Scripture does not mention any other means of distribution apart from these.

God placed tongues and interpretation into groups of converts in various regions through the Apostles. So each church would have God’s word spoken personally to them by individual members who received the gift. We see the laying on of hands in Jerusalem (Acts 6:6), Ephesus (Acts 19:1–7), and Samaria (Acts 8:14–17) and throughout Paul’s journeys where he gave the gifts (2 Timothy 1:6; Romans 1:11). God sent Ananias, who according to history was one of the original seventy disciples ordained by Christ, through whose hands Paul became healed and filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17).

They spoke God’s word through tongues and interpretation and through prophecy. With this they passed around the Apostle’s writings that would become the New Testament scriptures. Paul said tongues would stop when a better way, one that is perfect comes (1 Corinthians 13:8–10.)

Many think perfection happens in the new heavens and earth. But Paul qualifies this by saying whenever it comes, faith, hope and love would remain (1 Corinthians 13:13). Faith, hope and love fits well into this present world where we need all the faith, hope and love we can get. But in the world to come we’ll have all we ever hoped for and believed in. So Paul inferred tongues would stop sometime before Christ’s return on the last day, when hope and faith find fulfillment in the new world.

Paul urged believers to come behind in no gift until the coming (apocalypse or Revelation) of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 1:7). This is the same word John uses for the apocalypse of Jesus Christ. What we call the book of Revelation.

So this is likely what Paul saw through a glass darkly. A revelation he knew was coming but didn’t know how or when. Paul urged them to continue seeking spiritual gifts until Christ provided a revelation. We know a revelation came through John about the time speaking in tongues disappears from history.

Many gifts continue today as permanent endowments to the Church. We have miracles and healings through the prayer of faith (James 5:15). Also pastors, evangelists and teachers with the Apostles and Prophets cast in their writings (Ephesians 4:11). But God removed the apostolic signs and wonders with the death of the last Apostle. And he gave us a more sure word of prophecy than tongues and prophecy could provide (2 Peter 1:17–20).

God withdrew the Apostles, honoring them in the Book of Revelation. He wrote their names in the foundations of heavenly Jerusalem with the names of the twelve sons of Israel. This brought to a close the apostolic age and the gifts that flowed through their hands.
You titled the thread: "Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View"
What part of your post is Cessationist?
 
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Dave L

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You titled the thread: "Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View"
What part of your post is Cessationist?
I assume all of it? It's not the standard view but one I think hits closer to the truth.
 
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Saint Steven

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They were born again Jews = saved. Just as King David and all mentioned in Hebrews 11.
Hebrews eleven is the faith chapter, not the "born again" chapter.
The Hall of Fame of faith, not the Hall of Fame of "born again".
I don't believe any of the OT Patriarchs were "born again".
 
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