Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

[Anto9us]

I already said the Bible claimed it was perfect back in the Psalms - the law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul - and the New Testament original autographs are perfect as well -- manuscript evidence gets us as close as we can, and there are over 5600 Koine Greek manuscripts of books in the New Testament.

But the coming of a completed New Testament canon was not something Paul would see come - ironic that he wrote so much of it - but he was martyred before all the New Testament writings were done, do you agree?

Therefore a completed New Testament is out of context to 1 Cor 13, there, the 'perfect', the complete, the mature, the teleios, was something Paul looked forward to himself - and he will see it when you and I do. He had not the slightest notion of a completed New Testament being THE PERFECT in 1 Cor 13; that is pure eisogesis.

 

[Dave L]

No. No one ever confirmed Corinthians actually spoke in tongue, due to the lack of an interpreter.

If you don't follow Paul's instruction on this, you don't follow God.

Paul says those who speak in tongues speak to God and those with the gift of interpretation only.

 

[Saint Steven]

That is just a fear tactic...

That's not a fear tactic. Read the context.

Jesus was accused of casting out demons by the power of Satan. His response was to inform them that this action was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. (attributing the work of God to Satan) That is what we see here when someone claims that speaking in tongues is from Satan. No difference.

 

[Dave L]

I already said the Bible claimed it was perfect back in the Psalms - the law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul - and the New Testament original autographs are perfect as well -- manuscript evidence gets us as close as we can, and there are over 5600 Koine Greek manuscripts of books in the New Testament.

But the coming of a completed New Testament canon was not something Paul would see come - ironic that he wrote so much of it - but he was martyred before all the New Testament writings were done, do you agree?

Therefore a completed New Testament is out of context to 1 Cor 13, there, the 'perfect', the complete, the mature, the teleios, was something Paul looked forward to himself - and he will see it when you and I do. He had not the slightest notion of a completed New Testament being THE PERFECT in 1 Cor 13; that is pure eisogesis.

Then the bible replaced tongues.

 

[Hawkins]

Paul says those who speak in tongues speak to God and those with the gift of interpretation only.

Paul said what our Bible says, which is plain.

1 Corinthians 14:27-28 (NIV2011)
If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.
If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

If you choose not to follow the above instruction specially made for the tongue dispute, you are not from Christ. Period!

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes.

When we are born again through obeying the Gospel, we are now a new wine skin, ready to be filled with new wine.

There are three distinct baptisms.

When we are born of the Spirit (born again) the Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ.

This occurs when we first believe.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:13

Then usually the next thing is for us to be baptized in water by a Pastor.

Then we are baptized by Jesus with the Holy Spirit.

Paul explains using the Old Testament -

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1 Corinthians 10:1-2

• all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

JLB

There are two separate baptisms.

Acts 1:5
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

 

[Anto9us]

Then the bible replaced tongues.

Poppycock.

 

[swordsman1]

But the coming of a completed New Testament canon was not something Paul would see come - ironic that he wrote so much of it - but he was martyred before all the New Testament writings were done, do you agree?

Paul was well aware of the concept of a completed canon - he had one in his own hands, the OT. Now that they were in a new covenant era it would be perfectly reasonable for him to assume there would be a completed New Testament canon. The apostles knew that they were writing scripture (eg 2 Peter 3:15-16) and that when they died there would be no further apostles to write scripture. The canon would be complete.

Therefore a completed New Testament is out of context to 1 Cor 13, there, the 'perfect', the complete, the mature, the teleios, was something Paul looked forward to himself - and he will see it when you and I do. He had not the slightest notion of a completed New Testament being THE PERFECT in 1 Cor 13; that is pure eisogesis.

There is plenty of evidence to support 'completeness' being the completion and distribution of the canon. I listed 7 points in my earlier post, which haven't yet been refuted.

 

[Anto9us]

I see two baptisms - I don't quite understand JLB's THREE BAPTISMS; I am not saying it isnt possible, but I see two New Testament baptisms -- water and Holy Ghost -- in my case they were almost a year apart. (Water was first).

 

[Anto9us]

What people do today is not speaking in tongues as scripture describes it, but rather they have discovered the natural phenomenon of the flesh known to linguists as free vocalization or glossolalia, where the human speech organs go into 'autopilot' and produce strings of random syllables.

Blind man describes the elephant.

 

[AlexDTX]

According to scripture, God enabled believers to speak to him in a heavenly language. A language unknown except by him and those to whom he gave a gift for interpreting it (1 Corinthians 14:27–28).

This brought to a close the apostolic age and the gifts that flowed through their hands.

Faith is in the heart, not the intellect. The gift is not tongues, but the Holy Spirit. Nothing changes in the Holy Spirit, and all gifts are accessible by faith in Christ.

 

[Anto9us]

So - I defend a gift of the Holy Spirit and it is claimed I used a 'fear tactic' - an article says it is dopaminergic genes that make me speak in Tongues, others say that it is a stress reliever, but also pleasurable physically like sex (i can assure you there are no different physical sensations while speaking in Tongues than speaking English) yet it is alleged that I seek pleasures of the flesh and invite demons into me -- do you guys see how RIDICULOUS your anti-Tongues gibberish actually is?

 

[Saint Steven]

So - I defend a gift of the Holy Spirit and it is claimed I used a 'fear tactic' - an article says it is dopaminergic genes that make me speak in Tongues, others say that it is a stress reliever, but also pleasurable physically like sex (i can assure you there are no different physical sensations while speaking in Tongues than speaking English) yet it is alleged that I seek pleasures of the flesh and invite demons into me -- do you guys see how RIDICULOUS your anti-Tongues gibberish actually is?

If they are going to speak about tongues this way, there should at least be some interpretation to make it edifying. lol

 

[Sanoy]

Has anyone ever heard of 'tongues' manifesting non verbally? For example you can communicate a message via flash light and morse code. So not all communication is verbal, or transmitted through air compression. If there was a heavenly lanugage it would not be based on human vocal cord patterns and air compression. It might not even require a semantic structure and just be an emantion of pure meaning and intent. Has anyone ever heard of praying in a tongue without sound or semantic structure?

 

[JLB777]

There are two separate baptisms.

Acts 1:5
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Who baptizes you with water and who beptizes you with the Holy Spirit?



JLB

 

[Anto9us]

That which is PERFECT, swordsman -- is a STATE OF BEING that will exist when Christ returns. I agree with most of your posts about COMPLETE or MATURE being a better translation than PERFECT for teleios - fine.

To address the first TWO of your 'seven points', I will refer to Ephesians four - the list of the gifts that are 'offices'

Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Eph 4:12
For the perfecting (katartismos) of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (teleios) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Eph 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Here both katartismos and teleios are used of a state after which the office gifts have brought the church -- a state that obviously we are not in yet -- it relates so much to THE MATURE.

 

[Saint Steven]

Who baptizes you with water and who beptizes you with the Holy Spirit?

JLB

Jesus is the Holy Spirit baptizer. The church does water baptism.

John the Baptist said:

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

 

[Saint Steven]

Has anyone ever heard of 'tongues' manifesting non verbally? For example you can communicate a message via flash light and morse code. So not all communication is verbal, or transmitted through air compression. If there was a heavenly lanugage it would not be based on human vocal cord patterns and air compression. It might not even require a semantic structure and just be an emantion of pure meaning and intent. Has anyone ever heard of praying in a tongue without sound or semantic structure?

It's not really tongues if there are no tongues involved. Just sayin'.

 

[Anto9us]

The STATE OF BEING that ALL of the gifts lead to is described as a FUTURE -- 'til we all come in the unity of the faith' -- and we sure are not there yet. This is a future state, and can be considered eschatological, and dwells much on the 'child maturing into a man' - but it points to an END STATE - this maturation goes on from the time the office gifts were given "Till" the church gets to a state that it is not yet in. The completion of the New Testament canon did not get the church to the state of this perfect man - hardly - I seek to address the first two of your seven points, you had one verse in James I guess you mean the 'looking into the perfect law of liberty' passage -- that does not nail down "the completed NT canon" as "THE TELEIOS" -- no way.

 

[swordsman1]

To address the first TWO of your 'seven points', I will refer to Ephesians four - the list of the gifts that are 'offices'

Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Eph 4:12
For the perfecting (katartismos) of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (teleios) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Eph 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Here both katartismos and teleios are used of a state after which the office gifts have brought the church -- a state that obviously we are not in yet -- it relates so much to THE MATURE.

Most modern bibles translate telieos here as 'mature' not 'perfect'. I don't think that verse is an eschatological reference to being perfect in heaven. The goal is to become mature on this earth, not in heaven, through the ministering of spiritual gifts as v11 states.