Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

Hillsage · Aug 4, 2018

Saint Steven said:
The manifestations of the Holy Spirit lead to a life of power in God. Without which we are powerless.

I'm going to disagree, just a bit here. Any believer, by virtue of having the spirit of Christ in him at the regeneration/rebirth of his spirit, has all the power necessary to manifest the fruit of that holy spirit just like Jesus, before He received His own baptism of Holy Spirit at age 30 (Hello ), when He received the power to perform supernaturally powerful miracles. He also had the power to walk in sinlessness. I believe all born again believers do have that very same power in those two realms, and I believe we see that in their lives.

I also think that believers prior to the baptism of holy spirit power from Jesus the baptizer are represented spiritually and symbolically in the church of Philadelphia.

REV 3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: 'The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens. 8 "'I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut; I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name.

I believe I've seen many fundamental ministries where those brethren have done lots of good Christians works cultivated the FRUIT of Godly character (like Jesus did before He received the authority for the Holy Spirit's power) and never denied the the name of Jesus. Billy Graham especially comes to mind as an example IMO.

Preach the gospel, not with human wisdom and eloquence, not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power. So that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power. - Amen

1 Corinthians 1:17-18
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2:4-5
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power,
5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

I can only imagine how much more Billy could have done if he really did have just the "little power" but also the 'big power' like Paul had manifested in his ministry and very well may have been speaking of here.

Those are my thoughts anyway. Still with me Saint Steven? Now you know why I hang out so much in the UNORTHODOX forum....cause I am.

Hillsage · Aug 4, 2018

swordsman1 said:
No, that which was poured out at Pentecost was the Holy Spirit himself, not simply his power.

Act 2:17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Acts 2:18 "Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days,"

Translated correctly, but interpreted/penned wrong like good FUNDAMENTALIST "scribes making the word of God a lie." Check out a Greek Interlinear and see that little Greek word "OF" in both of those verses being conveniently left out, because that POV makes no sense to them or you.

"I will pour out OF my Spirit...." I do hope I don't have to tell yo WHAT He poured out now do I? It would have been "the promise of POWER".

Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit"

Click to expand...

We've been down this road, and you never remember the trip. So, lets go around this mountain one more time. Hopefully those who are Charismatics and don't know this will be enlightened even if you continue to kick the goads.

Question Swordman....Tell me which "Doctor" in the sentence following is a noun and which one is a verb. And if you're really a sharp sword tell me 'why' that is grammatically so?

"That is a nasty cut, but the doctor is in the office so lets let him doctor it up."

OK Swordman tell me the answer...and I'll teach you the truth concerning Acts 2:4 and a whole lot of other verses.

swordsman1 · Aug 5, 2018

Hillsage said:
Translated correctly, but interpreted/penned wrong like good FUNDAMENTALIST "scribes making the word of God a lie." Check out a Greek Interlinear and see that little Greek word "OF" in both of those verses being conveniently left out, because that POV makes no sense to them or you.

"I will pour out OF my Spirit...." I do hope I don't have to tell yo WHAT He poured out now do I? It would have been "the promise of POWER".

If you had studied this a little more thoroughly you would have seen your mistake. Joel's prophecy itself must serve as the authoritative interpretation of Peter's quotation of it. And there is no "of" in Joel 2:28,29. It says plainly "I will pour out My Spirit". All bible translations agree that.

Saint Steven · Aug 5, 2018

Hillsage said:
I'm going to disagree, just a bit here. Any believer, by virtue of having the spirit of Christ in him at the regeneration/rebirth of his spirit, has all the power necessary to manifest the fruit of that holy spirit just like Jesus, before He received His own baptism of Holy Spirit at age 30 (Hello ), when He received the power to perform supernaturally powerful miracles. He also had the power to walk in sinlessness. I believe all born again believers do have that very same power in those two realms, and I believe we see that in their lives.

I also think that believers prior to the baptism of holy spirit power from Jesus the baptizer are represented spiritually and symbolically in the church of Philadelphia.

REV 3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: 'The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens. 8 "'I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut; I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name.

I believe I've seen many fundamental ministries where those brethren have done lots of good Christians works cultivated the FRUIT of Godly character (like Jesus did before He received the authority for the Holy Spirit's power) and never denied the the name of Jesus. Billy Graham especially comes to mind as an example IMO.

I can only imagine how much more Billy could have done if he really did have just the "little power" but also the 'big power' like Paul had manifested in his ministry and very well may have been speaking of here.

Those are my thoughts anyway. Still with me Saint Steven? Now you know why I hang out so much in the UNORTHODOX forum....cause I am.

Yes, still with you. Thanks.

I will agree that any believer has the indwelling Spirit for a measure of power available to them. But those operating in manifestations of the HS see so much more.

Based on the verse below, it seems like we are not there yet.

John 14:12
Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And frankly, the proof is in the pudding, as they say. In which churches do we see healing and deliverance taking place? If you haven't yet done it, you should read the healing testimonies page on the church website for Bethel, Redding. (link)

I have personally experienced divine appointments and healing.

Saint Steven · Aug 5, 2018

Albion said:
If there is no real thing, they certainly are not going to be making comparisons. But many studies and my own experience has shown that pastors coach people about how to talk in tongues. That right there proves that is it phony because a gift is just that...a gift, not something learned.

Also, why is it that the one gift mentioned in Corinthians that is the easiest to replicate is the one that is the focus of this experience? Why are not healings nearly as often claimed as tongues-speaking? Because it is not that easy to heal someone if you do not have the gift of healing. But anyone can make repetitious sounds.

And there are many other indications that the languages are not languages at all. For example, people with Southern accents or Bostonian accents speak in tongues with the accents they came in with. But these are supposed to be other languages miraculously being spoken by someone who does not have any ability in them otherwise.

So that is where the charismatic starts to switch his explanation to talk of angelic or ecstatic tongues instead. I don't want to be offensive, but you want the answer, and this is a start.

Again, I would lay a measure of this problem at the feet of the Cessationists that have indoctrinated whole generations against HS manifestations. The church is still in a rebuilding mode in this area. We've been robbed, and we are working to get back on track.

Many receive the manifestation of tongues immediately, but some struggle with it. We help those who struggle to overcome their difficulty. Those who have a mental block of some sort are helped over the hump. Smooth sailing from there.

Pentecostal children typically do not struggle at all to manifest tongues. They didn't grow up in a church that taught that tongues were of the devil. And we see preschoolers praying for the sick, demonstrating incredible faith. This next generation is something else.

2 Timothy 3:5
having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

Dave L · Aug 5, 2018

Saint Steven said:
I have already done that many times.
No response from you yet. You need to address this.

Acts 2:38-39
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

- You (the believers at Pentecost)
- Your children (children of the believers at Pentecost)
- All who are far off (still available to EVERYONE in the future)
- All the Lord our God will call (are we still being called today?)

What is the promise?

Acts 2:33
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What is "what you now see and hear"?

Acts 2:4
All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

The promise = the Holy Spirit every believer has. Not all spoke in tongues in Acts so it doesn't mean the gifts were for all.

Dave L · Aug 5, 2018

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
In which case it is quite possible for people to be commissioned by Christ today... and impart the gift(s) in the same way as these did.

Not possible. Daniel and Zechariah set time limits when prophecy and related gifts would cease. And All prophecy after that time would be false. This coincides with Paul also saying they would cease.

Dave L · Aug 5, 2018

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
Dave,

I find it odd that you would quote from Paul, when Paul clearly disagrees with you: two verses earlier he says: "One who speaks in tongues speaks not to men, but to God... no one understands him..."

And yet in that not understanding somehow the tongues speaker is edified. Paul clearly does not use the word as requiring understanding. So your desire that tongues requires understanding does not agree with Paul.

Understanding is the basis for edification. And today's tongues speakers do not understand what they are saying = false experience.

Saint Steven · Aug 5, 2018

Dave L said:
The promise = the Holy Spirit every believer has. Not all spoke in tongues in Acts so it doesn't mean the gifts were for all.

How can you claim that the gifts were not for all? (1 Cor.12:7) The promise is defined in verse 33.

Acts 2:33
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

Saint Steven · Aug 5, 2018

Dave L said:
Understanding is the basis for edification. And today's tongues speakers do not understand what they are saying = false experience.

1 Corinthians 14:4
Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

Dave L · Aug 5, 2018

Saint Steven said:
How can you claim that the gifts were not for all? (1 Cor.12:7) The promise is defined in verse 33.

Acts 2:33
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

This does not prove all had the gifts. Paul even asked "do all speak in tongues". Do all prophesy?

Dave L · Aug 5, 2018

Saint Steven said:
1 Corinthians 14:4
Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

Yes, and understanding what is said is what edifies. Today's "tongue speakers" know not what they say. = false experience.

Dave L · Aug 5, 2018

DennisTate said:
John 9:4 "As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work."

For good reason.... the ten or so centuries from 500 to 1500 or so are called the Dark Ages......... very, very few people had the Bible during those years........ .and thus...... very, very few people could work effectively......

There was always a remnant... .and they risked their lives to own portions of the Bible.....

Did they need to discover the gifts in Acts? Or did God just send them? Discovery = God withdrew them and any discovering them is phony.

Dave L · Aug 5, 2018

DennisTate said:
Actually...... what was removed was The Bible itself.........
it was illegal for ordinary people to own Bibles until about four or five centuries or so ago.

As soon as ordinary people could own Bibles again.... .they noticed that the seventy who were sent out had power over devils and sicknesses.........
but technically.... .they were not even fully converted until years later at Pentecost..... in Acts 2.

So...... if ordinary ..... non-professional theologians like the seventy who were sent out two by two by two by two...... could kick out demons.....and heal all manner of disease...........
then reading about this...... transformed many lives beginning especially..... four or five centuries ago with the widespread availability of the Bible again.

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and theyare life."

Less..... (or nearly zero words of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus)..... = less Holy Spirit..... = less Life and less spiritual power.

They didn't have the NT when God sent the Charismatic gifts. They expired when he stopped sending them.

Saint Steven · Aug 5, 2018

Dave L said:
Yes, and understanding what is said is what edifies. Today's "tongue speakers" know not what they say. = false experience.

The whole point of the first half of 1 Corinthians chapter fourteen is that those speaking in tongues do not understand. Therefore, prophecy is preferred.

Saint Steven · Aug 5, 2018

Dave L said:
This does not prove all had the gifts. Paul even asked "do all speak in tongues". Do all prophesy?

Paul wasn't referring to a personal prayer language. Look at what your selective editing left out. Tongues/interpretation = congregational prophetic utterance. Not all do.

1 Corinthians 12:30
Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

Dave L · Aug 5, 2018

Saint Steven said:
Paul wasn't referring to a personal prayer language. Look at what your selective editing left out. Tongues/interpretation = congregational prophetic utterance. Not all do.

1 Corinthians 12:30
Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

It still remains those praying in tongues knew what they were saying or they would not have been edified.

Dave L · Aug 5, 2018

Saint Steven said:
The whole point of the first half of 1 Corinthians chapter fourteen is that those speaking in tongues do not understand. Therefore, prophecy is preferred.

No, it pertains to interpreting (explaining) what those speaking in tongues were saying. They were edified but the rest were not unless they interpreted what was said.

Saint Steven · Aug 5, 2018

Dave L said:
Did they need to discover the gifts in Acts? Or did God just send them? Discovery = God withdrew them and any discovering them is phony.

Paul writes about Timothy receiving his gift through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on him. And Paul was a part of that. They relied on prophecy to DISCOVER Timothy's gift.

1 Timothy 4:14
Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

2 Timothy 1:6
For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands.

Saint Steven · Aug 5, 2018

Dave L said:
It still remains those praying in tongues knew what they were saying or they would not have been edified.

A tongues-speaker can be edified, the whole congregation would not.

1 Corinthians 14:4
Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

Speaking in Tongues a Cessationists’ View

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