Speak lovingly of Mary

[Philothei]

But the word "until" does not signify that Mary remained a virgin only until a certain time. The word "until" and words similar to it often signify eternity. In the Sacred Scripture it is said of Christ: In His days shall shine forth righteousness and an abundance of peace, until the moon be taken away (Ps. 71:7), but this does not mean that when there shall no longer be a moon at the end of the world, God's righteousness shall no longer be; precisely then, rather, will it triumph. And what does it mean when it says: For He must reign, until He hath put all enemies under His feet? (ICor. 15:25). Is the Lord then to reign only for the time until His enemies shall be under His feet?! And David, in the fourth Psalm of the Ascents says: As the eyes of the handmaid look unto the hands of her mistress, so do our eyes look unto the Lord our God, until He take pity on us (Ps. 122:2). Thus, the Prophet will have his eyes toward the Lord until he obtains mercy, but having obtained it he will direct them to the earth? (Blessed Jerome, "On the Ever-Virginity of Blessed Mary.") The Saviour in the Gospel says to the Apostles (Matt. 28:20): Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Thus, after the end of the world the Lord will step away from His disciples, and then, when they shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel upon twelve thrones, they will not have the promised communion with the Lord? (Blessed Jerome, op. cit.)

Prove to me that the word until does not mean eternity....

 

[Thekla]

I've never remotely suggested such, nor do I believe such.

Oh, I must have misread your statement; perhaps you can re-read your statement and explain it again.

I don't think Mormons are "lying" either. They believe what they believe, and you have stated that's what matters (I don't agree with you, but that's another discussion for another day, thread and forum).

What I DO think is that you reject the very arguments you are using.

How so ?

Actually, I'm hoping we can talk about this dogma. It's that Mary never had intercourse.

Here, again, you understand this "dogma" with the human creation and your opinion as normative, not Christ.

You don't accept that a story/report about a person is true if the one's sharing it say it is, so I don't know why I should accept that it is.

You don't accept that something entirely about a person should be dogma (not sure I agree with you on that, but again, another issue for another day, thread and forum) so I don't know why you are supporting that a dogma about a person must thereby be infallibly true.

As I have shown, you really don't understand that the "dogma" is actually about Christ. There would be no Incarnation, no Mary, without Christ. It is your humanistic ideology which assumes that it is about Mary.

You reject the faith of the Mormon because they believe Christ founded their denomination since it is not about Christ and take it upon yourself individually to declare it false and reject it, fully accepting what they teach as accountable and needing substantiation. And yet you insist that all must accept the Catholic or Orthodox that Mary had no sex ever because it's not about a person and this is not accountable, and rebuke anyone who even asks about it (remember: I've NEVER denied it or called it false).

I didn't say it was true or false. I said I reject it. Do the Mormons believe in the God-man Christ ? Is He the center from which all their belief and theology arises ? Like you, they make the human the measure, not Christ.
I prefer Christ.

 

[Philothei]

You see the "dogma" in that light, as "about the sex life of a person" because you evaluate anthropocentrically with yourself and your opinion as the measure of all things.

Yeah it is and further more.....
It is about how YOU CJ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!see Mary and how YOU see the scriptures... We see them through the tradition of the Church that is Christocentric... and Apostolic. YOU see them "epistimiologically" thus through "science" ...and how can you find out any "proof" to prove it though science 2,000 years ago....is a big big enygma to me....

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

prove it....

We say it is about the incarnation....

Because: Mary was not ordinary in her relationship with Christ. She was the Mother of the God-man. God offered her a special role in the human history. Christ's having half-brothers has implications on his incarnation and already posters have presented those implication also...

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/


By the way CJ we do not have "catechesis book" that tells us what to believe word for word only decisions of councils that do.... Our faith is conciliar and patristic....Canons in the EO are but guidelines for our spiritual Fathers.... not laws to follow... We are not legalistic.

Greetings. Would you consider the Catholic Denomination as "legalistic"? Thanks.

Matthew 11:29 Seize the yoke/zugon <2218> of Me upon ye, and be learning from Me, that meek I Am and humble to the heart, and ye shall be finding rest to the souls of ye

Acts 15:10 Now then any/why ye are trying the God to put a Yoke/zugon <2218> upon the Neck of the Disciples, which neither the fathers of us neither are we are able to bear? [Deut 28:48/Reve 6:5]

 

[Philothei]

Greetings. Would you consider the Catholic Denomination as "legalistic"? Thanks.

This is off topic... I just posted this to clarify my position... Not to compare...

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

When the heretics and simple blasphemers refuse to acknowledge the Ever-virginity of the Mother of God on the grounds that the Evangelists mention the "brothers and sisters of Jesus," they are refuted by the following facts from the Gospel:

1. Ah, so we're heretics and blasphemers...

2. I don't refuse to acknowledge anything. I've never denied the possibility. There are 29,998 denominations that have no position at all about how often Mary had sex after Jesus was born - if at all. There is only one denomination that has a dogma about this, one that has doctrine. Both together means that 2 have an official view and 29,998 don't.

3. Well, obviously, IF Mary had other children then it's pretty unlikely that she remained a virgin. However, there is no dogma of "Mary Had Lotsa Kids" or "Mary Had No Other Kids." Never has been. Anywhere. By any denomination. The sole issue is this: Did Mary have sexual intercourse after Jesus was born? 29,998 denominations don't answer the question - dogmatically , doctrinally or officially in any way. Two do. We're discussing the position of those two.


The rest of the quote all relates to a diversion. I'm not interested in a dogma and doctrine that doesn't exist anywhere (and never has). I'm interested in the dogma/doctrine that Mary Had No Sex EVER. It's about sex. By Mary. Let's stay on topic.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah







.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This is off topic... I just posted this to clarify my position... Not to compare...

Greetings. Well from what I hear, the Orthodox and RCs share pretty much the same traditions and doctrines and this thread appears to be about the doctrine of mariology so why am I not allowed to bring them up?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

It is about how YOU CJ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

More diversions.

Friend, there is no dogma or doctrine about my sex life.
Anywhere. In any denomination. About any aspect of such.


The dogma/doctrine is entirely about Mary.
And it is that Mary had no sex ever.

Let's stay on topic.





.

 

[lionroar0]

all men share in Christs humanity.. For all men are humans.. Not all men share in His Godliness though.. Only those whom are born of the Spirit of God. This is why we are told in scripture we know no man according to the flesh.. For it is
not through the flesh that men are saved but by the Spirit..

Joh 3:6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

2Co 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Himin this way no longer.

1Co 15:45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

Christ's humanity is now no longer unique to Him.

We were not healed by our stripes but by His stripes.

He is human and perfect(healed). His humanity is whole not wounded by sin.

He share's His humanity with us, because it is unique, not because He is human like us.

If He were human like us then there would be no need to share in His humanity, because we would already have it.

Peace

 

[Philothei]

1. Ah, so we're heretics and blasphemers...

2. I don't refuse to acknowledge anything. I've never denied the possibility. There are 29,998 denominations that have no position at all about how often Mary had sex after Jesus was born - if at all. There is only one denomination that has a dogma about this, one that has doctrine. Both together means that 2 have an official view and 29,998 don't.

3. Well, obviously, IF Mary had other children then it's pretty unlikely that she remained a virgin. However, there is no dogma of "Mary Had Lotsa Kids" or "Mary Had No Other Kids." Never has been. Anywhere. By any denomination. The sole issue is this: Did Mary have sexual intercourse after Jesus was born? 29,998 denominations don't answer the question - dogmatically , doctrinally or officially in any way. Two do. We're discussing the position of those two.


The rest of the quote all relates to a diversion. I'm not interested in a dogma and doctrine that doesn't exist anywhere (and never has). I'm interested in the dogma/doctrine that Mary Had No Sex EVER. It's about sex. By Mary. Let's stay on topic.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah







.

ah......

glad to find out you adhere to relativism......I rest my case then... TAking no stand ....just in case it can be proven right that is... Good at least you stand on the fence...

When talking about YOU I was referring to your beliefs not your sex life... I think you underestimate my intelligence too much CJ.....

 

[Thekla]

Here it is: Mary was a Perpetual Virgin.
It's about MARY.
It's about PERPETUALITY.
It's about SEXUAL INTERCOURSE.
What part of that entirely escapes you?

No, the teaching is about Christ.
You make it about Mary; perhaps this is because, as you said previously (as quoted even by another poster) that you worship Mary.

Great. The Mormon faith that CHRIST founded the LDS is one you regard as accountable and you appoint yourself to arbitrate the matter and you dismiss it because it's not about Christ. Then (without even taking a breath), you state that the Catholic and Orthodox faith that MARY never had sexual intercourse is not accountable and MUST be dogmatically correct because it's about Christ. Odd. Very odd.

I'm not arbitrating. I did not say Christ rejects it. I say I reject it.

The dogma of Mary the Perpetual Virgin is about Mary. It's that Mary never had sexual intercourse. That's the teaching. I'm not sure what part of that totally escapes you.

It escapes your understanding because you see everything from your humanistism. This is relativism, because Christ is truth and center, not the human or human mores and understanding.

 

[Chickapee]

We are likened to Mary
Mary: same as Miriam: rebellion/their rebellion.


[a woman under the Law ] her husband being the Head [authority] till the Christ [seed] be born in you


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made.

He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,

by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Paul explains this , but we have to realize our place ,,, how are the brethern now dead to the Law ?

and bound /in union now to the Body of Christ , the mystery of the Church / bride of Christ ,

it is explained right here
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law

to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.


So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man,

she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead,

she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;

that ye should be married to another, [ HO HO HO!!] HOW IS THAT MAN A WOMAN MARRIED TO CHRIST ?

your soul is feminine gendered remeber how Marys soul did magnify the Lord!! and the spirit is dead /another man ,

we are of the same SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN GOD ...

[even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.!!
we are now the Lords/body /wife and sons of God shall be borne from this UNION !

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son,

made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law,

that we might receive the adoption of sons.

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts,

crying, Abba, Father.Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ

Christ is the annoited seed to Grow in truth and grace

I hope no one minds my intrusion here ? go on than ...
God bless C

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Pe/1Pe001.html#23

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Corruption......of the land........

1 Corin 15:50 This yet I am averring brothers! that flesh and blood Kingdom of God inheriting not is able to. Neither the corruption/fqora <5356> of the uncorruption/afqarsian <861> is inheriting.

Reve 11:18 and the nations are angered and came the wrath of Thee, and the time/season of the dead ones to be judged, and to give the wages to the slaves/bond-servants of Thee, the prophets, and to the saints, and to the ones fearing the name of Thee, the small ones and the great ones, and to blight/thru-corrupt/di-afqeirai <1311> (5658) the ones blighting/thru-corrupting/di-afqeirontaV <1311> (5723) the land. [Genesis 6:11-13]

 

[Chickapee]

Corruption......of the land........

1 Corin 15:50 This yet I am averring brothers! that flesh and blood Kingdom of God inheriting not is able to. Neither the corruption/fqora <5356> of the uncorruption/afqarsian <861> is inheriting.

Reve 11:18 and the nations are angered and came the wrath of Thee, and the time/season of the dead ones to be judged, and to give the wages to the slaves/bond-servants of Thee, the prophets, and to the saints, and to the ones fearing the name of Thee, the small ones and the great ones, and to blight/thru-corrupt/di-afqeirai <1311> (5658) the ones blighting/thru-corrupting/di-afqeirontaV <1311> (5723) the land. [Genesis 6:11-13]

yes brother the Glorious LAND / BODY OF CHRIST !! Isaiah 63 and Daniel 11 !
wow how clear it is to SEE it now after so long a time waiting !
woohoo!!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

yes brother the Glorious LAND / BODY OF CHRIST !! Isaiah 63 and Daniel 11 !
wow how clear it is to SEE it now after so long a time waiting !
woohoo!!

Daniel 7:13 Perceiving I was in visions of the night and behold! with clouds of the heavens as Son of a Mortal//0606 'enash arriving he was. And unto Ancient of the days he reached, and before Him they brought him near.

Miykah 5:3 Therefore he shall give up them till season/time one trevailing she brings forth.
And remnant of brothers of him, they shall return on sons of Me, Yisra'el.
4 And he stands and he Shepherds in strength of YHWH, in majesty of name of YHWH, Elohiym of him.

Reve 12:2 and having in belly, and she is crying-out, trevailing, and being tormented to be bringing forth
5 And she brought forth a Son, male, who is being about to be Shepherding/poimainein <4165> (5721) all the nations in rod/staff, iron.
And is caught away the child of her toward the God, and toward the throne of Him.

 

[Philothei]

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;

So... that would mean that through Christ Mary was not a "slave" to marital vows.... We can also claim that Mary was never "officially" married under the law and again the Bible does not confirm that marriage... As per her vow that she knows no man...

"for I know no man...."

 

[narnia59]

Thelka,

There's nothing "Christocentric" about the Dogma of Mary Had No Sex EVER.
It's about Mary - not Christ.





.

That is evidence that you truly do not understand the dogma at all, which certainly makes the discussion rather difficult. In order to actually question a dogma, one must understand it as those who profess it do and be able to discuss it as such, not as they in error believe it to be. Otherwise any discussion is well, moot.

 

[narnia59]

Has no one read this?
Joh 6:63"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Do you believe Christ is speaking of his own flesh here, and is your interpretation therefore is that the flesh of Christ profits nothing?

Also, does that mean that nothing one does in the flesh is of any consequence at all?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Do you believe Christ is speaking of his own flesh here, and is your interpretation therefore is that the flesh of Christ profits nothing?

Also, does that mean that nothing one does in the flesh is of any consequence at all?

Greetings. What dost thou make of 2 Corin 5 and Revelation 17?

2 Corin 5:16 So-that we, from the now, no-one have known/oidamen <1492> (5758) according-to flesh, if yet even we have known/egnwkamen <1097> (5758) according to flesh, Christ, but now not still we are knowing/ginwskomen <1097> (5719)

Reve 17:16 And the ten horns which thou saw and the wild-beast, these shall be hating the Prostitute and desolate they shall be making Her and naked. And the fleshes/sarkaV <4561> of Her they shall be eating/fagontai <5315> (5688) and Her they shall be burning down in fire.

 

[MamaZ]

Is this not the whole basis of the Marian doctrines? The flesh... Jesus tells us that the flesh profits nothing... So why would Mary need to be PV if it profits nothing?